Why?   What can be gained from showing a champion at an open show?   I was at an open show this summer and the RBIS was a champion and I have read in the dog press this week that this particular dog has 42cc's!   I know that it is more common for champions just to be shown in veteran classes and I don't have a problem with this, but why do it otherwise?  

sarah

It gives novice judges a chance to go over top-quality dogs?

I used show my Champion at local shows & she didn't always win. & at the time I only had her & a GSD to show for nearly 6 years until I bred a litter with some showable puppies(she never had puppies)

Champions are are eligible for entry & until the rules change they can continue to be shown. She actually been Ch Edenborough Blue Bracken at an Open  show before she was made up & at the time he was the breed CC record holder

I think it would be as hame if Champions were not allowed at open shows, because it would just then make them another limit show really -and easier to win at, so not worth as much.

So it's only champions who have the quality then?

My Champion beardie beat the then CC record holder before she was made up & she was quality then & the same after she was made up.

If they don't there's something wrong!

Not necessarily, some real quality dog never get made up, for whatever reason.

Also, the owner may have retired the dog from Championship shows (to give others a chance?) but that doesn't mean the dog should have to miss all the fun. Dogs enjoy going to shows, and break their hearts when they see the showbag being put into the car, and them left behind.

>So it's only champions who have the quality then?

No it isn't which is another reason for WHY it would make no sense to not allow them at open shows. :)

Just because a dog is a Champion does not mean it will win, or for that matter is the best in the class. I rarely have shown a champion at open shows, when I have done so it has been to support a particular judge. Personally if campaigning any dog at Champ shows I would not take it to many open shows for fear of the dog getting bored with it all - I want my dogs to enjoy showing and give me everything in the ring and pull out the stops when it matters. Champion owners do risk their dog being beaten - but what a thrill to beat a champion as well. It must be up to every owners conscience, but surely an open show is one open to all? We have enough rules, lets not make even more - after all if you get rid of all the competition what fun is there in winning?

So just because someone is fortunate enough to put the hard work in to make up their dog......it means it cant go to open shows?why not,its their hobby too!!!
All dogs are there to be beaten imo.

not that i breed show,;)

Not everyone who breeds and shows will go to the Champ shows - so IMO it's good for a Champion to appear at Open shows - gives the "plebs" a chance to go up against a "star" :D

Just like Grays Athletic playing against Real Madrid, with Freddie Smith playing against a certain D Beckham :D

After all, at the end of the day, we should all be taking tbe best dog home and who knows....one day maybe....knock the champ off his box :)

Margot

To reply to the OP Why show a Champion - when you have a small breed it helps keep them in the public (well show-goers) eye & hopefully educates a few more people about the breed. They certainly don't always win, nor would I expect them to - being a small breed I am usually showing in AV classes at Open Show level. We also show in breed classes, just to keep numbers up in the few shows where we have breed classes. It's also essential for judges to be able to have a chance to judge good, bad & indifferent.

>We have enough rules, lets not make even more - after all if you get rid of all the competition what fun is there in winning?

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. :)

If I hadn't been able to compare my dog to a champion or two at open shows (and beat them :D :D ) I'd never have gone to a champ show and found out just how far I could get with my dog :D :D :D   The champion dog's owners were really helpful and still are, I've learned loads from them :)  Also it is really good for judges to get the chance to go over a champion so they can get a 'feel' for a really good dog, that way they can recognise the other really good dogs who only get to open shows :D :D :D

Well in my case I will only show at 8 or 10 of the 18 CC shows we have for my breed, so if I didn't show my Champion at Open shows I wouldn't have many chances to show.  I probably again only do about 10 Open shows at most.

It is normal for our champions to be shown, especially in a breed like ours with a logn show life.  My girls is in her prime at just six years waiting to get back in the ring after her second litter, she was a champion at under 2 years old, so I certainly woudl not have wanted to retire her when she hadn't even reached full maturity.

Also judges learn their trade at Open shows, and they need decent dogs to go over.  I have to accept thart I will be beaten more often than not with my Champion, often by dogs that would not do so at Championship show, but I am sure that gives their owners a filip too. :D

Mine is not one of the breeds that often wins the main awards and I have never had a BIS with her, and only once a RBIS at a Group and at an all breed Open show, even though she is a Champion 3 times over, and has won a heat of the Champion stakes overall, and a days heat.

Perhaps they only have the one or two dogs?
I was discussing this scenario with my friend.
We both said we have no problem with Champions being shown
at open shows.
Afterall they are there to be beaten! and some do get beaten.
Plus perhaps their owners don't have pots of money and enjoy showing
and at the moment open shows are still affordable whereas Champ shows
are getting more expensive at £20-22 per dog per entry at an all-breed champ show.

I must admit I haven't entered Mia in for as many open shows once she was titled but when I do, she is there to be beaten if we have a judge who doesn't know what a quality dog they have in front of them!!!!!!!  ;)  ;)  ;)  Althought I don't tend to go to open shows now as we are given judges who aren't even on our judging list so I just wonder if they've ever read our breed standard at all?

That is right5, and also we try to support the shows that put on classes for the breed, or just like a particular show.

When judging I had a dog with 2 CCs showing, unfortunately he came up against an older bitch which was never shown at champ shows, but was a really nice typical bitch up to the standard. She got BOB, as I thought her quality was excellent. She has only ever been to one champ show to my knowledge. The dog went out the following week and was made up. I would not have changed my decision even if the dog had been a champion at that show, the rules are the dog is judged on the day to the standard.

Another show I judged, a dog with CC's did not do as well as his owners hoped. I had given this dog BOB previously, but on the day of the second show he was entered under me, they had allowed him to get fat, and it showed in his movementand ring presence. I had to unfortunately place him down the line.

These are just two examples of why a champion dog may not win at open shows. There are others. I remember stewarding at another open show, where there were two champions in open class, a totally unknown dog at his first show beat them both. The owners of the champions suggested the owner entered a championship show and this dog went on to become a champion in his right.

So as the judges judge each dog to the breed standard, (or should be, not the potential or particular status of the dogs) this can affect the days placings. It doesn't necessarily mean the judge was wrong or that the dogs were not judged fairly and accurately.

Depends on the breed - my friend who shows springers takes his Ch to open shows and people don't mind, but in Cavs I get a few snide comments even with my single CC winning boy! There's a unwritten rule with Cavs not to take Chs to open shows I think.

After reading these posts I can see and agree why a lot of people do take champions to open shows as it seems that many breeds are fairly small in numbers.   I suppose it is almost an unwritten rule in my breed that champions aren't entered at open shows but we have a lot of championship classes with cc's, so, I suppose are pretty lucky.

sarah

In my breed (Large Munsterlanders) I learnt from going to open shows and watching dogs, good and bad. If the Champions weren't there I would only have seen the 'also rans' and never seen the good ones. I didn't go to many Champ shows so didn't see that many dogs. I hope that they don't make a rule that prevents champions from being shown as I strongly believe that not only do judges learn at open shows I also believe that that is where beginners in showing should also learn their trade. I felt that I could go up and speak to the owners at an open show, whereas I felt intimidated at a Champ show. ;)

Just had this discussion at an open show yesterday when two champions turned up. Our shows are all breed shows, so we don't have breed specific judges, just one all rounder to judge, and of course the judge wouldn't everything about every breed. It turned out at our show that the two champions were not placed, and one didn't make it to BIS line up. Open shows like this can be a lottery and the odds can go against you or for you. It is nice to see champions, and see the handlers, but it doesn't mean they always win.

I personally wouldn't go to open shows if champions etc didn't.   If I am happy to show a dog I own I would have think it was quality enough for both champshows and openshows.

Some people just don't want to give others a chance, the KC should introduce a ruling that a dog with over 10 CC's should not be allowed to compete any more and give some other dog a chance.

>Some people just don't want to give others a chance, the KC should introduce a ruling that a dog with over 10 CC's should not be allowed to compete any more and give some other dog a chance. >

Why ??? Surely that is the whole purpose of breeding to better the breed isn't it ?? If you are happy to show your dog in a relatively poor show because you dont want to compete against champions that your choice. I personnaly think the fact that your dog has the chance to beat a champion is a good thing.

Why? The best dog on the day should win - even multi-ticketed champions have off days. Heaven forbid we go down the route of banning champions from competition, thus producing 'cheap champions'.

I totally agree.  Right from when I started showing over 20 years ago I was told "don't moan at the same dogs winning all the time - just go and breed something better!" :) And speaking from a personal point of view, if I showed my champions at CH shows where CCs are on offer (those without are effectively open shows IMO) and no open shows I'd only go to 8 shows a year.

I disagree - the CC wording says 'worthy to be a champion', not 'worthy to beat even the record CC winning dog that has a million CCs already'!! I think they should have a Champions class which doesn't compete for the CC, the dog and bitch CC would then compete with the Champion dog and bitch winner for Best Dog and Best Bitch. Possibly the Champion winner could be awarded a CC as well so they can keep racking up the numbers? There are quite a few dogs in my breed worthy of being a Champion that just can't get past the 'Big Three' dogs!

>There are quite a few dogs in my breed worthy of being a Champion that just can't get past the 'Big Three' dogs! >

Without sounding rude, if they were worthy to be champions then surely they would be ??? Obviously the "big three" as you callthem are better dogs ???

Not always & Cavaliers can be vary political, as Lucy will know. It's interesting to look back at one owners CC judging winners then the people under whom their dog has won CC's. Especially when the dog doesn't perform well-ie reluctant to be handled on the table & not being sound

Like I said I don't expect my dogs to be champions but to see someone shred a 2nd card(from open)when they were clearly expectring 1st & the CC  sums them up completely

So what you are implying is the show world is fixed dependent on which judge you get ???? Everyone who choses to show a dog starts off buying a puppy, right ?? So everyone starts on an even keel, so what you are saying is someone who has put in years of love, time, training, dedication and also alot of money travelling the country with their dogs, has to stop going to open shows when their dog becomes a champion ?? If there were no champions for your dogs to beat you would have a very poor quality show and a poor champion !!! I dont understand the problem, i would love to see what the people who are moaning about champions at open shows do with their dogs if and when the become champions, would you all heed your own advice, stop showing your dogs and reduce the quality of the field ?? Knowing that your dog could have entered and won. Surely then the  dog that has won without any champions present hasn't really won anything it has been given a bye !!!

Open Shows are often a training ground for judges.  Many may not have owned a Champion of their own and so it's an opportunity for them to go over a top quality dog to compare to the others.  I sometimes take a youngster to an Open Show for training.  I certainly don't mind being beaten, whether it is an Open or Champ Show, so long as the dog that beats mine is a quality dog! ;)

Cor, who shredded a 2nd in Open?? I've been thrilled to bits with the ones I've won this year, usually beating a few Champions to get that high a place!! :-)

Lucy, the wording doesn't say "Worthy to be a champion as long as no current champions are present". ;)

Surely restricting Champion/Show Champions to one class where they cannot win a CC will mean that inferior dogs will win CC's as the 'quality' ones will be omitted from competition.   If a dog is truely worthy of winning a CC it will eventually get there even if it takes a little longer than those owned by well known breeders!   

It happened in my first litter!  A bitch sold to an 'agility' home won her first CC (With BOB) at Crufts 1997, she then went on to win a further 4 CC's & 6 RCC's and this was her owners first showdog - the showing was meant as a fill-in until she was old enough to compete in agility!

It was a fill in !!!!!   that kind of took over our lives , costs us a fortune in diesel and makes the mileage on my car so high that we will just keep it till it dies, makes us want to drive for 7 hours for a bit of cardboard. You never mentioned any of this when we got her you know!!! Also you didn't say that they are addicitve and you will need to have more and more. My life has been taken over by munsters ........... and we wouldn't have it any other way.
we were very lucky with our first one though as she was bought as a pet/ agility dog and yeah she did do well  in the ring despite being owned by us!!! She was great fun to show [still is at nearly 11 although she isn't allowed now] and luckily she was a great agility dog too.  Just goes to show you should pick your pups at 2 days old and only pick the one that sucks your finger.

No JG, but I do think that some dogs might be worthy of 3 CCs but not necessarily quite as good as the ones who get 20, 30 or 40 CCs. I repeat, it says 'worthy to be a champion', not 'worthy to beat the CC record holder'. Inferior dogs should not win a CC if the judge is putting up a dog worthy to be a Champion, not just the best of a bad lot there on the day!

Yes but that's the problem isn't it.  Hardly any judges are willing to withhold the CC or Reserve CC - god only knows why.  It's not nice having to do it.  I withheld the Reserve CC on my very first time awarding CCs as ON THE DAY the rest of the dogs were not worthy of being champions IMO.  By putting yourself in the middle of the ring you have to be willing to take the flak that's gonna be thrown at you.  Conversly no judge should EVER award a CC to a dog because of what it's won or who it's owned by.  We all know this goes on but to be honest nothing's ever going to change it.  Certainly in my main breed, if there was a champions only class, vastly inferior dogs would gain their titles.

That must have been a difficult decision Surannon. I agree that it would take a lot of integrity for a judge to withhold CCs - I would hope that in Cavaliers it wouldn't be necessary - with 250 dogs at most Champ shows surely 4 of them would be worthy of CCs and Reserves! Agree with Brainless that a certain number of RCCs (3? 5?) should equal a CC.

The best dog on the day should win - what we don't want is for the ones who've already proved their quality being removed from the equation. After all, different judges have different preferences and interpret the standard slightly differently. If a dog is never in competition with champions it lowers the value of the award, IMO.
:)

I do think that perhaps a certain number of RCC's could count for a dogs third CC.  Aftyer all the RCC winner woudl get the CC if the CC winner were disqualified and the wording re quality is the same.

brainless, you're reading my mind again! :D I think that's an excellent idea.

Well at the moment apart from a stud book number (which the dog may already have) the RCC has no value and really only amounts to a consolation prize.

Yesterday My youngster won her 2nd CC, but I beat my freinds bitch who is now a veteran, who is on two, having won the CC at Crufts this year and several reserves this year, but time is not on her side for that third. :D