Just picked up arthur from the groomers and he has bit her thumb leaving quite a big cut.  Im deverstated.  She said he didnt growl or give any warning he just bit.  She wasnt doing anything like pulling knots from his coat she was just cutting fur near his chest.  She said she got the impression he was just fed up of being groomed and so bit her to stop her! 

Only the second time shes been bit in 25 years, she suggested I take him to a groomers that muzzle dogs as she is brilliant and doesnt have leads on them or muzzles.  I feel so upset its horrible.

Do you think he needs a behavourist?

Nothing against groomers, but you only have her word for it that the bite the way she said it did unless there were independant witnesses there. I've a friend who is a groomer & she only muzzles dogs if the owners request it ! She is a qualified dog trainer as well & she used to work in Quarantine kennels doing kennel maiding & grooming. She's had the odd dog complain but as far as I know she never had a bite that drew blood

He might just have got totally p**d off with the whole thing & his hormones might have kicked in as well.

Had he been there before ? 

doesnt have leadso r muzzles??

I think thats foolhardy at best, and downright stupid at worst!

What if, say your dog HADNT bitten the groomer, but had fallen off the grooming table as he was unsecured, and hurt himself??

Em

I feel like im fighting a loosing battle with arthur sometimes.  I can honestly say I dont think it is the way he is treated I think he is actually a bit odd.  I think (Hope) his testosterone has something to do with it I have just booked him in with the vet to be castrated.  I know this wont cure his sometimes irrational behaviour but its worth a try. 

The groomer is a lovely lady and he has been before when he was younger and I told her he could be iffy and explained his traits, this time when I said arthur she seemed to know him and never asked about any behaviour traits, I thought she would have a card on him like they do at human hairdressers (am I silly).  I feel like a failure for not warning her about him.  ARGGHHHHH

Also we are rehoming a female mongrel hopefully in around 3 weeks......  I know you may think this is fool hardy but hopefully with him having competition for attention it might do him some good.  Dont worry the little one will be watched at all times and caged when were not around.  Its awful when you loose faith in your dog. 

As has been said you didn't see exactly how it happened.  Maybe she hurt him without realising it. 
One of my dogs bit a woman vet once - luckily I witnessed it and saw it was her own daft fault.  So try not to be too hard on Arthur, unfortunately he can't give his side of the story.

Thanks for your positive words tyby but I know his personality and I know he is capable of it,  He took my socks 2 mornings ago and I just went to take them, he bit me.  Sometimes he will let you take something other times he will bite, and without growling, he doesnt growl he just bites!  I know im making him sound bad and hes not really I just feel negative at the moment.  He is brilliant with dogs tho, he must be a dog dog and not a person dog. 

Im not being different with him in anyway im just gutted.  The groomer made me feel like a bad owner and said it would be best if I took him elsewhere in future, I felt like I had bit her myself :-(

Sorry if I sound like a neurotic owner but I have never had a biter before.

Edited to say Theemx your right I didnt think of that, of him not being secured on the high table.

Oops missed this

> doesnt have leads on them or muzzles <

She should have them restrained what if a dog was injured by jumping off the grooming table because it wasn't restrained ? Don't think her insurance company would be very happy at having to pay for the dog to be treated !

But as a professional groomer she should keep records & be aware of how he might react If he was restrained correctly(I'm sure Val will be along to correct me if I'm wrong ;) ) he shouldn't have been able to bite her. I only use a head restraint for my dogs as I find it hard to get them to stand still(to busy tryiing to kiss me ;) ) whilst I dry/groom their body coats I can't hold their heads up at the same time as combing/brushing & I have problems just holding the brushes & combs at times

Don't feel down(easy for me to say) he's a rescue so you don't know exactly what has gone on in his life before you got him

I think you're having him castrated ? which might help if it is hormonal

& if you don't already do this when he takes something he shouldn't, offer him a better swop rather than try to physcally take it from him offer a tasty titbit & the word give or leave & praise him if he gives up his teasure to you. I don't know if he retrieves but teaching a retrieve is a good way to get forbidden treasures from dogs as it becomes a learnt response to give up an article for a reward Just a couple of thoughts

>Also we are rehoming a female mongrel hopefully in around 3 weeks......  I know you may think this is fool hardy but hopefully with him having competition for attention it might do him some good. 

I would be very cautious in getting another dog. What happens if him having competition for attention actually makes his behaviour worse?

I can see where you're coming from but if he does get even more grumpy what are you going to do?

Don't want to come across as criticising ;) And I wouldn't feel like a failure for not warning the groomer about him. I have a friend who grooms and she's was nipped a couple of times by gentle natured dogs . They do get fed up. The others, when she was warned about them, she took steps for their safety and hers. Leads tied to hooks, belly straps and occasionally, when they were really unreasonable and with owners consent, muzzles.

But I would think about the future ramifications of introducing another dog with Arthur being like he is :)

Edited: Have just read that you say he's a dogs dog, so this puts another perspective on it :)

Yeah hairypooch I think your worries are completely founded, and I am grateful of anyones advice or even thoughts.  I am taking this little girl on with my eyes wide open and have covered every eventuality.  Arthur LOVES other dogs and is not much interested in people especially if there is a dog around.  My main worry with the little girl is him being over zealous with her not biting her.  I was gob smacked when I saw the little girl today she came up and sat on my lap and fell asleep, Arthur as a puppy never did this he never really slept much either or wanted contact with us.  He has always been very independant not really needing humans unless to do his will and throw a ball when he wants.

I went from seeing her today and feeling positive to picking him from the groomers and feeling really down.  The girl were getting is a bigger breed than arthur (yorkie).  So hopefully once shes a little bit bigger she will rule the roost and I believe this is what he needs. 

Do you think she will be more in charge being the female (obviously older)?
Do you think arthur will show sexual attention to a puppy?

Archie's a Yorkie ? Definitely should have been restrained if he jumped of a high table he could have done himself serious damage !

I can only go on my experience Leanne. ;) and no doubt others will have different ones and share but I would say it depends on the nature of the dog that you bring in. Not very helpful I know.

If she's timid, had bad experiences with other dogs then it'll be a while before you can ascertain who's in charge. He'll probably change too :D  Let's hope he'll think all his birthdays have come at once :P

My bitch is definitely in charge of my boy, but she's 10 months and he's a big boy (mentally) at 3.......not :rolleyes: My last bitch was 5 yrs older than him and again, definitely top girl. Looking back, we've always had either 2 girls or girls and a boy,  but the girls were in charge over the boys in my case

My breeder swears that all his girls lord it over the boys, that could just be in our breed.

Even though you're getting Arthur castrated, it won't take away the "urge" if he's that way inclined, just the physical reproductive bits. Will your new girl be spayed?

We get a voucher with "Lilly" when we pick her up to have her spayed at 6mnt which we will do. So both dogs will be spayed.  She is 9 weeks at the mo and has just recovered from a broken paw :-( her mum stood on her.  http://www.dogpages.org.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=89765 cant do links but if you go on there and scroll down shes the pup in the picture on her own with white on her muzzle. 

Hopefully she wont be small for long and be too big for arthur to mount even if he has the urge. 

>I thought she would have a card on him like they do at human hairdressers (am I silly).

When I worked as a groomer we certainly did have a card for each dog, and always checked them before the dog arrived.

Absolutely Em and MM!!  First rule of grooming - secure the dog for the dog's safety and the groomer!  Groomer wouldn't have been bitten grooming the chest if the head had been secured. :(

And yes, groomers should keep cards for all their dogs, with owners name, address, phone number in case of emergency, health history, and what groomer had done to achieve the trim etc.  And then of course, any 'funny little ways'! :)

I think that she is right - you'd be better taking him somewhere else. ;)

Thanks Val I thought I was right ;)

I had one of my own dogs snap at me when I put he hairdryer to his neck/whithers as he obs didn't like it, I also accidently went a little rough with someone elses dog who again snaped, totally accidentlal but also 100% my fault and not the dogs...human will scream, shout and moan if a hairdresser does something wrong.

Guys THANK YOU ALL!!! I dont know how I would have got through Arthurs first year without you all.  My mum had exactly the same reaction as you all, I said she was too soft with him.

I feel alot better after hearing all your advice and comments. 

Thinking about it I thought the no lead/muzzle thing was a good idea but like you have all pointed out it isnt at all......  See I learn about 8 new things everyday on this forum.  Membership should be compulsory if you own a dog. 

and also Arthur has fell out with me, wont look at me or be stroked by me since he come back from the groomers, seems he sees it as my fault he had to bite her for taking him there :-)

If the groomer was working on him for a long time or he had knots or tangles then he may well have been fed up (esp if she wasn't as gentle as she could be ;) ) but a good groomer will -
a. make sure the dog is safely secured - for the dog's sake and their own ;)
b. keep an eye on how the dog is coping, and give the dog a little rest if needed (eg. if the dog is showing signs of stress) this can be as little as allowing the dog to go out for a pee ;)

If she was cutting hair on his chest, then she may well have hurt him unintentionally, the chest/under leg area is very sensitive, and tangles can be easily missed ;)

I've just started training as a groomer and my college runs a salon for us to practise on - and they always have a card on each dog. If the groomer appeared to recognise your dog, you would have no reason to know that she didn't remember he could be a bit funny. When we were doing a dog and he was giving us funny looks, we muzzled him to be safe even though he hadn't growled or anything. And I agree that it is most irresponsible not to restrain a dog on a grooming table. OK, I don't restrain my own dogs, but I know they aren't going to do anything stupid, but you should always have the dog restrained in a salon!

Hi,

I have never been to a groomer yet that does not have muzzles, harnesses, and leads.  I have an excellent groomer now, but tried a few before I was happy. I once witnessed as I arrived early and was watching through the window a groomer basically dragging one of my bitches legs up at a bent and obviously painful angle to try and cut her nails as she was fidgeting (only her second time) and my placid, never so much as even growls bitch tried to bite her.  Obviously I went in fuming and told her I would never use her again! And immediately took my dog home.

You really don't know what went on with Arthur so give him the benefit of the doubt.

Obviously mention it the next time he is groomed by someone else (seeing this one has no muzzles etc.......) he may just have not been in the mood.  I would worry more if he started to get snappy with you, hormones and medical reasons can also contribute to changes in behaviour, but in this inst. I would give him the benefit.

Hello.

I think it is an occupational hazard that groomers may get biten, even if they have been in the business for 25 years +.

Yes, you only have the groomers word that this happened, but what has she to gain by telling you the dog has biten her? 

At the end of the day there is not enough information here to base an informative answer to your question, 'do you think he needs a behavourist'.

You dont say how long you have been going to this groomer, how old your dog is, how long he has been groomed for, whether he has ever been severly matted and needed clipping off, etc, etc.

I have been biten by a dog (a Bichon!) and I still work with that dog, I haven't sent him to another groomer as I will only be passing this problem on and I would want to get to the bottom of it! I have to say that I have noted the fact and am alittle more cautious but I have not muzzled him and have not had any problems since.

Try another groomer and explain the problem to them.  A good groomer won't have any problems in taking on your dog.  Stay with him if you prefer.  I know that ome groomers do not like this but if they are professional, then they wont have a problem.

If you think that his behaviour is 'out of character', take him to the vet and get him checked out.  I personally believe that dogs are agressive or bite for a reason, you just need to find out what that reason is!

One final note, it is not always the groomers fault!