Its a very good deal, considering no excess too, a tenner a month  WOW its so worth it for the added security, cheers again

Shaz
xxx

I would think that her eye problem would not be covered under a new insurance schedule though, or am I wrong?

As it's a cataract & not affecting her it possibly might not need any further treatment, but her parents shouldn't be bred from again(not much chance of that tho')

Could be covered by the free KC insurance though 

Asked vet about that............unfornutely as she born with it, no chance re-insurance, it's around 1000 pounds to do and its technically beyond our local vet, although she said she would find out where and whom did this type of op, but again the vet said it is not going to bother her and she will not go blind so at the mo we aint gonna do anything about it, she is far too young anyway...........

Shaz
XXX

Even if she sadly did lose the sight in one eye she'll cope as dogs don't really rely that much on sight

I judge obedience & in one class had a BC bitch with only partial sight in one & none in the other. Not only did I not know until after she had worked, but she ended up in the top three & the class included a sendaway where the dog has to left the handler & go a a specific point(in my class it was to in front of a large yellow cone)She was one of the few dogs to do it perfectly & in the retrieve she found the article(a piece of fluted dowelling)perfectly too. She was lovely & lives a normal happy life(her tail was wagging all the time)

Hi Shazbaz, just looked at her photo, and she looks like a cavalier to me, though I too am concerned about the colour. (Though that has been put right by other experts here) Having taken her to the veternary did you not ask him what he thought of your concerns?

Re: your dates for the KC papers, there is obviously something wrong there, so that does need to be checked out.  And as you have probably gathered it is unusual to be selling a 17 week pup - unless she had been returned from a previous sale.

The picture that you paint of the breeder is not a good one, and there is obviously something in the back of your mind that is making you query things.

I would not worry about the mum (If that was the mum, as a pup will go up to another dog no probs, especially if they all live together) being mated with a red setter, which was one of your concerns, the pairing of those two although not completely impossible (though I would think near on impossible) is unlikely.

Cavaliers as with many other breeds have different sizes, colourings and builds, it is down to the breeding and the breeder.

But my major concern is the KC paper dates, there is something a miss there, this pup could have been a return from a previous litter with lost papers, and the breeder is doing something dodgy. It does need to be looked into.

All said and done she is a beautiful pup, and she looks to be a cavalier to me!

Her colour is fine there are lots of ruby show people who would love the deep chestnut colour it's no fault

Hi Lyssa

I have wondered if she maybe was sold then brought back as she is very timid.......... and sometimes when you jump up she hides and shakes, which makes us upset.................

We wish we could have done things differently but, we have never stumbled across a breeder before for us to purchase a pup- (have got older CKC's before-rescued ones, which recently we lost our beloved Doris whom would have been 6 in december( we had her in our lives for 3 years) and we got her under some unusual circumstances and we were let down there too....................

So, yes so many questions and confusing ones too, we are doggy people but obviously not experts and everyone here is helping us so much with advice, thank you evryone!

XXXXXX

Shaz & Annie

P.S How can I get these KC papers checked out!!!!

Hi shazbaz,

Firstly when you get your papers you can see the dates in black and white.  The kennel Club I have always found to be extremely helpful and if you have a query they will look into it for you, they can also tell you the colours of the parents, that way you can make sure that the Dam and Sire that you saw are the same ones on the papers. You can take things further with DNA testing etc.  It is up to you how far you wish to go, at the very least if there is something dodgy going on the KC will be aware and look into this breeder.

It is never a good sign to have a timid pup, to hide and shake is really worrying. She should be inquisitive and forward.  But this can happen if a pup is not socialised in the home and left in kennels (strange noises etc. will scare them) though I know you said that you saw pups in the house! So this does not make sense.

The first 3 months of a pups life are what shape them! Which is why she should not have still been there at 17 weeks! I definitely think she is a return, she may have been treated badly by the sound of it. She should not be afraid.

All in all things don't sound right, but the very bright side is whatever this pup may or may not have been through, at least she now has you! With your love, understanding and training, she will grow up to be a wonderful dog. Give her lots of cuddles and praise.

I hope that you get everything sorted out! LOL.

Hi lyssa

She was reared in a outside building, she was kept with two bitches whom had a litter of pups each and these litters were in the house, she was definately NOT used to a home environment but slowly she is getting there, we have lots of patience and I'm constantly saying'Good Girl' in fact my neighbours keep laughing at me, (but they understand as they have a Great dane Pup)......she is showered with cuddles and Love.....................

An example is tonight my hubbie got the hoover out to hoover the jeep(it wsn't even turned ON), and she started shaking I picked her up and her whole little body was shaking -Bless her!!!!! she is having cuddles now on hubbie lap..............

Shaz
XXX

You probably know this already, but tempting as it is, you should not reassure or cuddle heer when she reacts with fear to normal everyday, or even unusal noises.  all this will do is confirm in her mind that it is something to be afraid of/worried about, and will also ecourage her to show fear as it wil get her cuddles and attention.

The thing to do is be very upbeat and jolly hockey sticks with ehr when she is like this, distract her with a game or some training, or something positive to boost her confidence and earn her your praise.

ahhhh.. Bless her.  Brainless is right in what he says though,  infact when I have pups in the house, I usually sing whilst hoovering (not so pleasing to the neighbours) so that they don't have any fear of it. And will come out to explore instead of being afraid. The trick is to switch it on when your pup is some distance away and not right in front of them so it does not make them jump.

Sorry Brainless called you a 'he' meant she! Anyone else for  a sex change!!!

Pinacle as well as Pet Plan do lifelong cover. 

You really need to be careful as some that say lifetime cover aren't, they will cover pet for it's life, but exclude the condition it has been treated for on the next renewal. 

Some offer lifetime cover to a certain amount and once that sum is reached no more cover. 

The best ones reinstate the sum assured each year, so you have £6000 worth of cover fresh again the next year, and anything already treated is still included. 

It really is a minefield and you need to check the small print as regards lifetime cover.

Don't know if the same in dogs, but I have a congenital cateract. Surgery won't even be considered unless it shows any sign of growing which it hasn't yet. My eyesight in that eye is terrible but not as a direct result of the cateract.

Just had a peek at the pics...I don't know much about CKCS but she looks like a lovely little girl to me. Hope you have many happy years together :)

*edit* oops...this post was supposed to land much further up the thread

Hi ShaynLola

Sorry about your eye............I personally don't know how you feel but, I have a brother whom is totally blind, born with (I'm gonna spell this wrong, i;m sure)  Retinitis pigmentoesous (something like that)  it is inherited genetically and he also has a cataract but it isn't a problem for him, so fingers crossed pup will be ok...................our last dog was partially deaf, so I think we are getting used to all of this now, bless them!!

Shaz
XXXXX

Retinitis Pigmentosa is the same ssort of eye disorder as the canine eye disorder PRA which many breeds can get, and the reason tha may are eye tested tio avoid breeding from affected dogs.

That is good.....re-testing, unfornately they could not do tests, like these many many moons ago re- my brother.............I had to endure many tests at Jimmy's in leeds as I was born after my brother(I'm the last one in the pecking order) LOL......there are two type aggresive and dorment, I carry the gene...which they found out after I had my son, when he was 3 days old a Professor Muller in Hull wanted to do numerous tests including looking at the back of his eyes, I did refuse as he was already here and I know they can not cure it, as we went through this as a family, trips to russia and switzerland for my brother as a young boy, hoping for these consultants to cure him.............Hence why I only have one child as it is too risky, although if my son had it and still could have it, then I would be able to cope no problem as I was brought up around it, my son does not carry, it's just girls, boys tend to get it unfornutely.  I know this is swaying of track slightly..........glad you can spell it, Ihave never been able to even though I have seen the words so many times.............

Shaz
XXX

This problem is recessive and affected children are only born if both the parents carry the gene, and the statistical likelihood is that one in four will be affected, one in four will be clear of the gene, and 2 out of four will carry it (like you) but not be affected.

If they were able to test your DNA to ascertain that you are a carrier then they can do the same for ypur husband, and as long as he isn't a carrrier you cannot have any affected children, but half of your children will themselves carry the gene.

Sadly there are only DNA tests available for PRA in soem breds and not in others, as it seems that a different gene is responsible in different breeds.

Yes -recessive...its been a long day!!!

Both my parents carry the gene, I was tested during my pregnancy along with my sister, ..........there are four of us, apparently .....it was stated to my parents 37 years ago when she was expecting me that if i was a boy I would have R.P...as it was out...quote from the doc...it is more complex re-husband as wehave looked into it, and its been discussed with prof Muller in depth.

Shaz

I went to a school for the Partially sighted, (am registered blind) and kenew a few people with thsi confition, two of them were qa brother and sister both went blind by the time they were in their teens.

the girls used to knock on the door when the school bus came for me.  This was in London and she was quite a few years older than me.  In a strange twist of fate I ran into her when I was doing PAT dog visiting at a nursing home where she was a physio, she had a Guide dog, and next time I saw her she had a young Flat coat as a guide dog, but he was very bouncy. :D

I must have a very non-PC sense of humour. :o I just laughed like a drain at the idea of two partially sighted people running into each other ...

*I'll get my coat, even though I know you won't take offence*

Nah one completely blind, me can see a bit.  Actualy I found that quite funny.  We used to joke about sight al the time, it is like racual jokes they are all right if it is the race they are about telling them :D

I once heard an ambulance driver say that they'd take an RTA victim to hospital, then come back to run his friend over afterwards ... :D

LOL-----My son, said to his Uncle shaun( My Brother) Why haven't you got a blind dog...............My brother said 'well that would be funny george, blind leading blind hey!!..........

My Brother went blind when he was 23..........if it wasn't for my father and the trips every year to either Russia or switzerland....he would have been blind a lot younger, my father tried so hard and payed for all the operations (No help from the country , what so ever) I remeber my brother when he used to come home and you couldn't see his eys due to the white's been totally red/blood........poor kid!

She's not even half way as bad as I expected. :) :) Have seen much worse around here!! She's at the teenage stage anyway! And like MM already said, defintely a cavalier :)

Ignore what people say, I was at an exemption show yesterday and was told by somebody "I suppose your dogs have GSD in them somewhere". They are purebred Malinois and the adult went BOB at a breed show just over a week ago, LOL!!!

so pleased with ALL your comments, you do start to wonder tho' when that many ppl keep mentioning it to you...........but like you said she is a spangely teenager-LOL...........................

The info you posted Golimali was very interesting too.......

Shaz
XXXX

Hi Shazbaz,
After looking at the pictures "Bless" I do see why you are concerned.
With a lot of love and care, you will be shocked at the diffrence it will make.
She is so lucky to be brought by some one who will love her.
If you can, don't let it lay, I would notify the council first.
Then have a word with the KC, tell them your concerns, also the mix up with the
date of birth. Also The breeders club, If they are reg; I doubt if they will be!
R.S.P.C.A. They might do a spot check. It will not help you now. But! it
maystop any future litters. You can only try!
Regards
Denese

Hi denese

Would I have to notify the council (area which i live in) or where the breeder lives although the breeder is only 20 mins away, it divides into north, south etc...I'm in east Yorkshire, the breeder one of the others......

thanks for your advice

Shaz
XXXX

Hi Sazbaz,
It would be the council she lives in, it can be anonymous! you can also ask them
to keep your name private! Tell them your concerns over the other breeding dogs.
Also about your own. I feel it is being run as a puppy farm. All the dogs and bitches
need to be checked. Also the conditions they are kept in.
Regards
Denese

> You can't heart test a pup, I believe - it is the parents which have to be heart tested before breeding, because a pup is too young for it. <

Er you can heart test any dog puppy or adult The heart certificate & eye certificate results of the parents are shown on the dog's registration & the puppy should have been checked by the breeders vet before sale

There are some huge pet Cavaliers around weighing in to the 20 kg but there are also lots of Cavalier(D)x Welsh Springers(B) bred by pupy farmers as the WSS have many more puppies than Cavaliers

MM is it normal for reputable Cavalier breeders to heartest puppies before sale, or just the adults?

Good breeders will get their puppies screened by their own vets especially as they can have slight murmurs that correct themselves that are nothing to do with MVD

Hopefully they will be able to find the marker gene(s) for MVD so that breed can be reduced(along with SHM, Retina Folds etc)not holding my breath just yet tho'

All four of our most recent cavaliers were(as well as being checked for slipping patellas)& some breeders will also have the puppies eye screened as well

Got this off an e-mail list a few weeks ago, wouldn't it be wonderful eh:

This is exciting -- the CKCS will be one of the few breeds to have a
full genome scan. As noted this is expected not only to identify genes
associated with SM and hopefully provide a genetic test, but also
identify the genes for MVD. The Canadian and UK researchers pushed very
hard for this, backed by some helpful support from breeders
internationally.

CKCS breed will get full genome scan

UK-based researchers Clare Rusbridge and Penny Knowler and their
Canadian collaborators Guy Rouleau and Berge Minassian have been
successful in their submission to the Mammalian Genotyping Service at
the Marshfield Clinic in Wisconsin (USA) for a full CKCS genome scan.
The research is initially into syringomyelia but hopefully will be
extended to looking for candidate genes for MVD as well.

The research, undertaken by a joint veterinary and human medical group,
will benefit both 'man and his best friend'. Syringomyelia in CKCS is
an excellent model for research into the condition in humans, and human
geneticists are interested in validating findings from the CKCS
research in humans. Finding the gene and learning how it works would
help the understanding of the disorder for better diagnosis, clinical
management and ultimately, prevention. For biologists, these studies
will provide new insights into the poorly understood process of normal
development of craniocerebral structures of the central nervous system.
The researchers say that many people worldwide will benefit from this
research -- and are pleased that so many 'ordinary' people worldwide
are contributing to make it possible.

The genome scan will identify markers which can then be used to
identify the gene/s responsible for the disorder causing syringomyelia.
The same team have already been successful in identifying the canine
gene for Lafora's disease. The research is expected to take several
years but the first stage will hopefully produce a DNA test which will
enable informed breeding decisions.

The researchers say that due to the generosity of clubs, research
projects and individuals, they have collected enough DNA samples to
start the genome scan. Therefore they no longer require DNA from CKCS
dogs with syringomyelia. However, the researchers are still anxious for
DNA from dogs of breeds other than cavaliers that have syringomyelia.

The researchers acknowledge that the entire project could not have been
undertaken without the support of the UK DNA Archive for Companion
Animals.

WOW that's brilliant they already have bloods from our 4(including Rikki who died from MVD & Lou who has SHM)for the MVD & the SHM research & the lady we might some day get a puppy from is 100% behind the research & has solids(but gorgeous ones ;) )so paws crossed that they find the marker genes

that is is interesting...............

just sent KC registartion forms off, when we get them back I will see if our pups parents have been throughully checked out re-Heart and eye...........thanks for info..

Shaz
XXXX

It will ahve had the info on the original breeder certificate under Health tests by the parents names.

Shaz, I've come in late here as I've been to a show today. As you know I had never heard of this particular breeder. However it is VERY common here in this part of the world (and I'm not far from the breeder of course) to see over sized leggy cavaliers with long faces -I see them all the time.(Some pet owners have even asked if my normal sized cavaliers are miniatures!)  They've just been bred for the pet market with no thought as to how they look, and the bigger the bitch the larger the number of pups she may have......... So she may well be purebred but badly bred.

thanks Goldimali

Just confused about our pup as majority of people keep mentioning the length of her legs and tail for CKC'.............we are not bothered at all if she is cross bred but obviously do NOT want to be taken for a ride especially with the other situation we had with doris which I discussed with you.......

Shaz
XXX

I have the same sort of cavalier as you describe and for two years I actually thought other peoples were charlies until we got our second one from a reputable breeder.He is actually now bigger than a lot of springers but we realise now we were not ripped off by his breeders as he is actually worth millions to us.

As long as your dog is happy & healthy he is priceless. It's just a shame that some breeders just don't care & sadly it's not just pet breeders that don't care about health issues as I have found. If you want to see why visit my dogs site there's a link in my profile.

I have a gorgeous boy who has SHM(Syringohydromyelia)which can be life threatening & is genetically inherited. The current veterinary advice is not to breed of off spring & siblings of dogs with SHM, but it's being totally ignored by some people who can only see the ££ signs

I judged a X breed yesterday in obedience that could have been my puppies twin brother He was lovely & as valuable to his mum as my boy is to me :D-lol but far better trained ;)

Shaz, you mention that when you jump up sometimes she is scared.

Try this:  Have some treats on your lap for her and when you jump up, chuck some on the floor.  Then sit back down and let her eat them.  Do this several times and get other members of the family to do it as well.  Soon she will associate you jumping up with treats falling, and she will stop being afraid and actually see it as a good thing!

thank onetwothree, will try that......................could I do that too with the Hoover, which she is very scared of, plus the lead too....???????

I am beginning to woder now that she had been brought back, and well don't know reasons but she is ours now, slowly and staedily we will get her there!

Shaz
XXX

Try leaving the hoover out all the time so she gets used to the shape etc

Taking her to obedience &/or ringcraft just to socialze is also a good idea as she will be able to meet other dogs in a controlled environs. If you tell the trainers about her problems & that you want her to take her time I'm sure they will help. Ringcraft is good even if you don't show her & I'm sure the cavalier spirit will show through. They are a very social breed & usually are great with other dogs even if they aren't brilliant with all people due to their background

Hi Shaz,

Almost 2 years ago my sister went & bought a blenheim CKCS from a similar set up to where you bought your girlie from but she didn't get to see any parents.   The pup (Now named Tinkerbell!) came with no KC papers or pedigree (But a promise to send them on!), she was quite poorly to start with and even my sister, who is no dog expert, started to question Tinkie's parentage.   But as she's grown up, she's filled out, even more now she's spayed and she looks like a Cavalier althought she is slightly higher in the leg & taller than the show ones but she has by far one of the prettiest heads & expressions I have seen on a CKCS.

Christine

Of course all these badly bred dogs make wonderful pets if they are lucky and are healthy, it is just that the breed, the dogs them selves and not least the new owners deserve better breeders.

HI ChristineW

Thanks for your reply, I'm so glad your sis CKC is doing great, that has given me hope now, mine too has a very pretty expression and lovely shaped head.......................

Like us.............doggie have there flaws, it is not a perfect world and they aint such thing as a perfect human (although some people like to think they are)..................(genetics Hey!!!!) LOL

Life is about making mistakes and I certainly know how to go about buying a pup now, thanks to everyones advice!

I have some pics of my pup on:  http://photobucket.com/albums/c347/shazbaz35/

If you fancy taking a Look!

Have PM'd you!!!

Shaz
XXX

there are also the really annoying people,who DELIGHT in telling you what breed /X your dog is!!! i think it makes them seem knowledgable!!!! sad people!