I feel this is going to be a 'tin hat' situation but here goes:

On holiday this year we became aware of the 'Small White Dog' phenomenon. These pooches (Westies, JRTs, Bichons etc.) were never off lead and if another dog (leashed or not) came into sight, were immediately whisked off the ground and up into their owner's armpit - apart from JRTs which were just allowed to yap and pull like maniacs. 

The one exception to this was a pretty little lad who had a marvellous game of 'Doggy Grand National' on the beach with our two (GSD and whippet X) a Dobermann pup and a lurcher.  He was by far the smallest dog there but had wonderful presence and fully enjoyed all the dashing about, often whipping between the bigger dogs' legs. The owner was too far away for me to ask what breed it was (if any) but I was so taken, I did some research but was unable to find anything that looked like it.  Then yesterday in the park there was another one, having a great romp with our two and a GR.  When asked the breed, the owner replied 'He's a Lhasa Apso'.

Now I don't doubt that he is but why, when I look up this breed, am I presented with what looks like two marbles and a button peering out of a mound of hair?  Are there really two types -  or are the owners of these two clipped specimens just not giving a damn about grooming, being too engrossed watching their dogs having a bl**dy good time?

I shall now retire to the 'Mutt Bunker' and wait for incoming...      

Well seeing a Lhasa Apso at a dog show all pampered up and furry is one thing, but seeing a Lhasa that is only kept as a pet (usually they cut and trim their hair) is a completely different story. If you ask me, I much preffer the ones that run around the park...... they actually look cute. The "perfect" looking ones just look a bit too much like a mop to me :) .....

So does a Yak, adn that too comes from ibet, so theres your answer they have long ahir to protect them from the harsh climate from whence they originate.

The ones in tibet probably weren't groomed out nicely and probably had bits of everything in their coats and ponged a bit.

So the long coat is actually the natural state, and the hsve jobs are not. :D

I think coated breeds look horendous clipped, as it totally ruins the funciton of their coatds to protect from the weather.  You can have a happy mediyn and have the coat kept cut a few inches long, and kept out of the eyes without loosing the fact it is a long coated dog.

I have 2 shih-tzus and they are kept short. I would hate to think what they would be like in wet weather. Having only short legs their underside would be soaked and need to have daily baths. It may look nice but I prefer my dogs to be happy. They still get groomed but it only takes about 15 min a day whereas if there coat was long it would take a lot longer. By the way for anyone who doesn't know the shih-tzu is very much like a lhaso apsos.

Having a friend who had Lhasa's she let her dogs run around with their full coats, they certainly were a wonderful sight and I'm sorry so much better than the clipped ones and she had no trouble keeping them clean, they have that sort of coat where the dirt doesn't seem to stay on and can be brushed off.  If only my Spanish were the same :d

I agree.  I have many full coated (I take them about 1" off the ground and clip the groin area) Lhasa and Shih Tzu in the parlour who lead a wonderful doggy lives.  Their owners spend about 5 minutes each day combing though the coat.  They come back to me in 8 weeks for a bath and trim completely knot free.

I agree, if a person can't be bothered with a long coated dog, they could either get a short coated breed, or get the coat trimmed short but not completely shorn! :-) I have 2 Cavs and an American cocker who have full doggy lives running around and getting filthy, and it only takes 5 minutes to brush the mud out and check for knots once it's dry!

We have had Lhasa' since 1979. lived on a farm,  all in natural coat, when the came home they were sprayed with a mix of Bay rum and water and combed through, took about 15 mins a day and  then a good comb through on a sunday afternoon while watching TV. They all loved there one to one time.

I have 2 Lhasa now both full coated and I think I would cry if it was clipper.

Lynn

4 tibetan terriers in full coat running through the woods and over the Sussex Downs.  Whats 15mins work sorting out their coats after a mad dash.  My tt's are happy with their long coats and lead a full doggie life.  Oh and Maggie all my dogs are happy.

CarolW

Trouble is, most owners these days don't want that 15 minutes' work!  I clipped a lhasa not too long ago, and he was very, very knotty - on the edge of being matted - and his fur was only 2" long at the time!  I see it a lot, especially with spaniels and westies' skirts - people want the dogs but not the work brushing them.  So from that point of view (and I think they look cute!) I personally prefer clipped lhasas - better they look teddy bear-ish than are all knotted.  Obviously it would be preferable for all owners to do the work - I would, if I had long coated breeds - but most just won't bother.

I always invite the owners into the parlour the first time that I see a new dog to explain what I've done and why.  I show them a slicker brush and a comb and tell them where to buy them from (so that they don't think that I'm just trying to sell them!) and demonstrate how to use them.  I find that most owners have been sold a brosh with knob pins on one side and bristles on the other by their local pet shop, which is about as much use as a chocolate teapot!! :)  Once shown how quick and easy it is to groom back to the skin, how the dog doesn't mind being groomed when it has no nasty matts, I find that most owners love their dog looking like the breed they chose to buy.  They come back to me every 8 weeks so that I can sort out the bits that they may find difficult and everybody's happy!  Those who can't be bothered, and there truly aren't many, I send to the sheep shearer down the road! ;)

Even the face hair is there for a reason, keeps the glare of the sun off the snow out their eyes as with the other temple dogs from Tibet.  In its natural state it hangs together with the oil from the skin and they do see perfectly well.  I can only speak for myself and many of my friends in the show world, the dogs looks lovely when brushed and tidy, but they also have a whale of a time running around as pets off lead when they are out for fun.

I do feel sorry for dogs that are only ever used as a fashion statement though - cant be much of a life for them.

I'm sorry but I don't know why people buy the breed if they don't like the coat!  That is the breed and it wasn't bred like that just to have it hacked off.  Sorry if some people think the word "hacked" is going too far but I've seen many where there's striped all across the body and they've got stairs going across.

I feel that many get them clipped as that's how the dog groomer's locally do it because they haven't a clue how the coat should be.  Sorry if this upsets people but it's how I feel!

I've even seen Pomeranian's in a STUPID Lion Clip.  I ask you??????  It's not as though it gets that hot here.

A friend of mine has 11 Lhasas & they are are nearly all in full coat & the ones that aren't are puppies ! She spends 5 minutes on each a day & they run through woods & dig & play like most dogs. She trims the personal bits & the feet & coat length as all lhasas need the last two doing just as she would if she showed them all

I find it hard to believe that the excessive coat of some breeds is a product of breeding for attributes for functionality in the breed's natural environment.  More likely it is a product of the show scene where the, if-a-little-is-good-a-lot-must-be-better, mentality prevails and a glamorous dog catches the judge's eye.

The mutations that cause the coat to grow abnormally long do not occur in any wild canid for good reason.  A modern day Lhasa in full coat couldn't possibly cope in snowy conditions.  Its coat would severely snowball immediately.

I have seen many Lhasas and similarly coated dogs in awful condition and not just from puppy farms.  It may take an experience groomer only 5 or 10 mins a day to keep the coat in order but in my experience, this is not achieved by many pet owners.

Julie

this is not achieved by many pet owners
It can if they're shown how to do it - and they do! :)  It's simple if you groom to the skin with the right tools.
I fear, as has been said to me on a number of occasions, that many groomers don't know how to do it and so clip it off.  I regularly had calls from groomers in the area asking "What would you do with a....?" or "How would you do a .......?"

>>many groomers don't know how to do it and so clip it off.

I think this says it all :-)  If the pro groomers can't cope, what chance have the pet owners?

I wouldn't let most pet owners I know, loose with a slicker brush anyway.  I think it's kinder to clip off in most cases.

Julie

Still beggar5s the question why be attracted to a long coatd look and then make them look like a hairless one?

"If the pro groomers can't cope"

Because it would appear that many of the 'pro groomers' have had none, minimum or poor training!  In my area, most are people who own a couple of dogs, who think it would be an easy way to make money.  So they buy a pair of clippers and put an advert in the local paper!  It's very difficult for the pet owner to tell a good groomer from a bad one!

I have no problem teaching a pet owner to use a slicker.  It's just another tool and very easy to use - if you're shown properly, like everything else.

I also put a slicker brush in my puppies' puppy bag, after demonstrating to the owners how to use it, on both my adults and the puppy.  I've never had an owner struggle to groom - until they have their dogs neutered! :(

>>I also put a slicker brush in my puppies' puppy bag, after demonstrating to the owners how to use it,

This obviously doesn't happen to most pet owners though.  To answer Brainless, I doubt most of them have any idea of the work and commitment required when they decide on the breed.

Julie

Surely then its up to the breeders to let people know of the commitment required to look after these dogs properly and for the breeders not to let them go to people not dedicated enough. 

CarolW

Couldn't agree more Carol but in reality this doesn't happen.  Dogs of popular breeds are churned out of puppy farms and sold to whoever will pay the asking price.

Julie

I agree CarolW.  But how can people breeding their pets, with no understanding of the breed apart from their own bitch, give any of the necessary backup and support that new families need? :(

Having said that, one of the first lessons that I was taught at grooming school was that I need to be good not only at handling and trimming the dogs, but also good at educating the owners to look after them properly! ;)

To Julie V

If you look at the original TibetanTerriers their coat is very similar to what you see today with the hair hanging together over the eyes as I have said before.  The body coat is a long and looks as profuse as today's TT's .  I don't know as much about the other temple dogs of Tibet but someone with more knowledge may be able to answer that one.

I would have to agree that Beardied Collies (also my breed) have been bred to have thicker more glamorous coats the original - having shorter hair, but still the double coat and hair over the eyes.  Another word on the TT and snow.  The snowshoe feet of the TT, way to large for a little dog, is also an adaptation to the snowy conditions. 

To site the wild population is a bit misleading as we have very few wild canid varieties to observe.  I do know however that certain coats do not cope with the snow although they look as though they should.  One of my Beardies, strangely the one with the more workish coat, suffers terribly from the snow balling under her feet, while the show coat has not trouble coping.  I don't believe there are any generalisations to go by.  Certainly we have manipulated the coats of many breeds but the Tibetan breeds seem to retain a lot of their weather proofing and are very tough little dogs, when allowed to be.

Hi echo

Wild canids populate all climatic regions of the globe and the coat adaptations to arctic and snowy condition can be seen in arctic wolves and foxes, and breeds like Malamutes and Siberians.  This normal coat type is modified in canids of the hotter climes where it is shorter and less dense but still retains the double coat for protection.  There are no longhaired wild canids. 

In my experience any long hair is a disadvantage in the snow.  It either gets damp quicker or snowballs.  I too had a Beardie.  She had a reasonably hard though rather sparse coat but her feet would snowball terribly.   Also my Bernese would pick up snow in the feathering. 

The wire hair mutation is common in the Tibetan breeds and it would be interesting to know if this did have any functional advantage.  The Kyi Apso also has this hair type but without the length of hair of the Lhasa so the eyes are not obscured but really if this was an advantage to vision in the glare of the snow, we would see the arctic sled dogs, who would have extreme exposure to glare, sporting hairy faces too.

I really do have a problem visualising a full coated Lhasa tripping happily though the snow :-)

Julie

>I really do have a problem visualising a full coated Lhasa tripping happily though the snow

Like yaks ... :)

Like my friend who has the 11 she owns some woodland & her dogs love it in the snow zooming around

BTW the reason beardies has facial hair was to protect the eyes whilst they drove cattle & sheep etc in all weathers-not for nothing were they called the Smithfield Drovers in some areas

>Like yaks

Yaks are relatively long coated but nowhere near the comparative length of the modern day Lhasa and they have short hair on the legs.  The fleece of the yak is moulted annually and it peels off in clumps just as canid coats do eg the wolf and many similarly coated dog breeds, if they're not groomed.

The wire hair gene as in the Lhasa prevents this normal moulting by extending hair retention time and this is what makes the so called non moulting breeds retain their coat.  From reading the article I posted, it seems the original Tibetan dogs (with much shorter coats) did moult somewhat and groomed out their own dead hair.

The selection for more and more coat for the showring has probably, virtually bred out the natural moulting process so coat just gets longer and thicker.

Julie

*I really do have a problem visualising a full coated Lhasa tripping happily though the snow*

If you read the origins of the breed Lhasas were never bred to be outside in the snow of Tibet, they were bred to be companions and guards of the inside of the Tibetan Monasteries.  The Tibetan Mastiff was the dog that was used as the outside guard dogs, they have a completely different type of coat.

Therefore IMO their length of coat was there to keep them warm (it provided insulation) from the undoubted chill of living inside the unheated stone walls. As it is a certain fact that they had no central heating in those days ;-)

I've now done a search to see if there is anything on the coat function.

A very interesting article by Dr Catherine Marley USA, a Lhasa Apso breeder.  The photos of the original Tibetan dogs are unrecognisable as the same breed. 

Interesting that the dogs naturally bite and groom their own coats. And a very poignant comment -

"The correct Lhasa Apso coat is the most obvious casualty of the showring."

http://www.lhasa-apso.org/articles/tibet.htm

Julie

To Julie V

As I said I don't know abut the Lhasa Apso only theTibetan Terrier and the info you have found is very interesting.  I would still say we don't have enough wild caninds to go on.  Siting wolves and foxes (Ive seen some fantastic coats on Arictic Foxes) and the Husky, which is surely domesticated, really doesnt give enough to go on. But I am not an expert in that field so I bow to superior knowledge. 

The original Tibetan Terriers are very similar to what you see today and left to their own devices, as I am sure many owners will tell you, they still strip out their own coat as well as that of their pals.

Now after reading the article I can say that the coat on their original Lhasa Apso would be acceptable to me, but then I also like the true working Beardie.

>>I really do have a problem visualising a full coated Lhasa tripping happily though the snow :-)<<

If you ever see Lhasas and TTs in their native land, they are not the perfectly groomed specimens you see at dog shows. The fur is felted and matted (like little yaks as Jeangenie said). Even the Tibetan Mastiffs fur gets a little dreadlocked and felted just like you see in Arctic Wolves. It must give them extra warmth and protection or the dogs would have died out by now as they are barely cared for in a lot of instances. I don't think there is that much snow in Tibet in the inhabited valleys so maybe we're getting a false picture of dogs that need to be equipped for three feet of snow all year round.

Here's a good page abut Kyi-Apso - http://www.muddypaws.com/kyiapso.html

Pictures of Lhasa Apso imported from Tibet - http://www.lhasa-apso.org/standard/oldtib.htm

>I don't think there is that much snow in Tibet in the inhabited valleys so maybe we're getting a false picture of dogs that need to be equipped for three feet of snow all year round.

You're right - just out of interest I've looked up the climate for Lhasa. :) The temperature ranges from between -11C and 6C in January to 9C (low) and 24C (high) in July. So the range is similar to here. It's also very dry with almost no precipitation in winter - most rain falls between May and October.

Hi Phoebe

>>the dogs would have died out by now as they are barely cared for in a lot of instances.

The modern day Lhasa Apso as seen in the UK ring would surely last no time at all in those conditions then.  The coat has become so profuse that self grooming is no longer possible.  The Tibetan Mastiff has a much shorter coat and doesn't have the wire hair gene so the coat will felt and peel off as in wild canids and most other breeds of dog.

Julie

No doubt the type and coat has changed a little since the first imports - it happens to most pedigree breeds over time. Also a higher level of nutrition and more careful grooming would probably contribute to a longer coat.

I am in total agreement.  A dog still wants to be a dog!  Yes, they look stunningly beautiful with their long coats there is no doubt about that, but a few minutes grooming and they can have the best of both worlds.  My not so far neighbour has a Lhasa we live in the country surrounded by fields and woodland, she does not show her dog, she is purley a pet. This little girl is always yapping like crazy at the window and has never in her life had a country walk off her lead.  It really annoys me when she picks her up whenever mine and other dogs approach, this dog is always pulling and desperate to get off the lead and have a good run and chase with mine. I always feel it is being deprived, for the sake of looking good.

I doubt it is for her looks, more likely the lady is afraid of dogs bigger than her own, or afraid of your dogs hurting her.

My initial thoughts, but I saw her do the same with two Yorkies, and on asking her she told me she did not want her dogs coat messing up as it took sooooooo......... long to comb through. At which I gave her a sad glance, and said it is a pity that she can not play! \I have long learnt not to interfere with how people are with their dogs as long as they are treated well and loved.  But I still think it is sad.  When I have seen Lhasa's play they can be real little tinkers, timid and afraid I have not seen in this breed.  They can run along with my dogs easily.

Yes, it is sad, but the fact that the dogs dont run and play is down to the owners preference, not because the dogs cant or wouldnt - no doubt this owner would be the same if she had a Mexican Hairless :( I have a coated breed, they are shown, and they run and play as much as they like - I knew the coats would need regular grooming and was fully prepared for it. A none shedding breed has not been changed because of dog shows - the coat carries on growing, although ring presentation may have changed over the years.

I agree with Spanishwaterdog.  If people don't want to be bothered with a long haired dog why choose one that needs careful and constant grooming.  I show my dogs but first and foremost they are my pets and run around like dogs do.  I must say that I did speak to a lady showing off a photo of her champ dog and it was dripping with coat.  "How do you keep it clean?" I asked.  "I put its hair in bands" she says "but what about underneath?" "surely it gets dirty just spending a penny" "oh no it never goes on grass"  What a shame!!!!!

CarolW

Do all these people who say people shouldnt buy long coated breeds if they are not prepared to groom them ever had such a breed?

I recently adopted a shih-tzu who looooves to swim and then roll in the mud afterwards,there is no way on gods green earth that i would be able to keep her in a long coat,it wouldnt be fair on her,as she would have to be bathed practically every day,not to mention all the extra burrs she would pick up,she picks up plenty now and she has a short coat. I love the look of shih tzu's "underneath" their coat,i also love their personalities and the fact they dont shed,they dont have to have a long coat for me to appreciate everything else about them...

There are no other dogs out there that i am aware of that has the look and personality and the no shed coat of the shihtzu,but with a short coat...

Yes I have thank you and they enjoy running around in the mud etc.  Yep, it's hard work to keep but if I can working full time and with a number of dogs I don't see why the GP can't.

I know from experience that a lot of the "pet" owners actually think that the short coat is how it should be because the groomers say so and that's what they see out and about.  They don't realise how the coat is supposed to be.  But there again the onus is also on the breeders to advise.  So it works both ways.

I should have emphasised lomghaired "small breeds" . I also have springer spaniels and they dont get half as dirty as the shih tzu because they arent as close to the ground i guess :)

Just walking her on wet grass makes her stomach and legs dirty enough,whereas my guys ankles only get a tad dirty. From my experience you cant compare small breedss to large breeds when it comes to this particualr issue. :)

I also have Pomeranians and some of their coats are really quite long and touch the ground.  Once they've dried it is easy to just give a quick brush and it's gone. 

Hailey like I said I have 4 tibetan terriers all in "show coat".  Yes they pick up dead bracken, burrs and leaves their feet are like giant sponges but mud dries and brushes out and all the other bits can carefully be picked out - a great time for one on one bonding.

CarolW

I can relate to that my TT has an almost self cleaning coat, app art from the burs, when the dirt dries it just drops out of her coat making brushing realiy easy.

Just to add. I have full coated Lasa's that I groom out and they look wonderful and providing they are groomed by the groomer everyday, they are quite easy to keep!  However, I do have other Lhasa's who are clipped for ease for a number of reasons.  Its up to the owner what they prefer and how they can keep control of the coat.  Lhasa's have wonderful personalities and loved to be fussed!  I haven't met one that dislikes the grooming process!

>apart from JRTs which were just allowed to yap and pull like maniacs. 

Llasas can be lovely little dogs when given the chance to be real dogs and not ornaments! As indeed can be most of the smaller, hairier breeds. 

But there are some distinct advantage to being owned by one of the dreaded Small White Dogs (aka JRTs) - you don't have to get 'em "poodle parloured" every five minutes and neither does anyone get them confused with a floor mop. Unless some enterprising retailer has brought out a new line in yakking floor mops, of course! :)