We are unsure what to do or go about finding out if we have a FULL pedigree CKC,  our pup who is nearly 5 months old( CKC's-Ruby) is KC registered and we have sent the forms off to register her in our name however, we are not convinced she is full pedigree (it doesn't matter) but we just need to know.  Having had ckc's before she is certainly different, having the face of ckc and a very long body and long legs etc .......numerous people keep mentioning this to us too and we are starting to wonder if we have been sold incorrectly and is it possible that KC papers can be messed with, if you know what I mean!!!

I know this may sound odd but we just want to know for sure and how do me find out for sure???

Any advice guys.....

P.S  breeder states she is one of my FULL pedigree's and as my husband says' there is a lot of emphasis on the FULL, when hubbioe spoke to her!!

XXX
Shaz

Did the breeder use another persons stud dog or a dog they owned themselves?

Did they keep another larger breed/s, especially another Spaniel breed?

Did you see the pups with the mother with her feeding them?

It would be possible to have the parents and the pup DNA tested, but you would need fairly good grounds for your suspicions as it would entail taking them to Trading Standards/Court and/or asking the Kennel Club to investigate if you think the parentage has been falsified.

You could contact the Cavalier breed clubs and find out what kind of reputation the breeder has among fellow breeders, and also perhaps arrange for a breed expert to assess the pup to ascertain the likelihood of it not being purebred before proceeding further.

If the expert concludes the pup is likely a cross breed you would certainly have a good case to go to with Trading Standards. 

she used her own stud dog, which was a male blenhuim CKC, that was what she showed us anyhow but he had produced numerous pups, she was on her own (well last one left) she was 17 weeeks when we got her and she was kept in a pen outside with two female ckc whom were mum's to the litters in the breeders house.

The breeder lived in a small holding and she did mention red setter to us but, in a context that some lived near by as well as great danes, this is what is making us think, plus people commenting on her build and structure.

Cheers
Shaz
xxx

Normally it would not be the done thing to mate the Blenheim and Tricolour dogs to the solid colours (Ruby and Black and Tan) as you risk getting mismarked Ruby's and black and Tans (with white markings) or over heavy marked Belenheims and TRicolours. 

That for a start would ring alarm bells that the breeder was not knowledgeable.

Also with your bitch plus the other two bitches having litters that means she had at least 3 litters there in a short space of time, another warning sign, as a litter of pups is a lot of work to rear and socialise properly.

Where was your pups Mum?

Kept in a building outside the small holding , she brought her in to the house, I did follow the breeder and asked if I could go with her she said no, I was concerned about the amount of pups and maybe ckc she had in this outside building but we just wanted to get our pup ouuts there we want to make sure as hubbie is going to sort it if so, as we paid Full price for a CKC pedigree, our pup has white marking down her front plus on her front paws too

Shaz
xxx

That is why you don't mate the white marked colours to the solids.

sounds like a puppy farmer/commercial puppy producer to me.

If you had gone to a reputable loving breeder you woudl ahve expected to spend time with the pups, and for the breeder to proudly discuss the relatives of yoru pup, show you pictures and pedigrees, and the dogs themselves that she oend like Grandma great grandma etc.

They would expect you to kep in touch and to share pictures and news etc.  More like meeting future inlaws than buying a car.

We wanted to just get a puppy -pet not a show dog etc as we had tragically lost our beloved CKC-Doris very young and the papers she prodeuced re-our new pup they shared the same grandma and grandad which we thought was lovely..

we have never bought a pup before so we didn't know what to expect and we were still mourning our loss of Doris, I know there is things that we shouldn't have done but like I said before we wanted to get her outte there as she looked like a lost soul I did stipulate to my husband as to Why did the breeder still have her left at 17 weeks??? but what dod we know, she just wanted to know if she is cross breed although it will not change anything, just the price of her (hubbie would sort out)

XXXX

Sadly that is exactly what such puppy producers (they don't deserve the name breeder) are banking on. :(

I don't suppose the parents or grandparents were heart tested?  which they shoudl have been as sadly a high number of CKCS have heart problems and die at under 5 years of age.

I would have your pup insurted and keep a careful eye on ehr weight and heart status from now on.

the fact the pup was 17 weeks would not ahve worried me on it's own, it is the number of litters, the poor breeding practice re the breed standard, and lack of health testing.  After all a caring breeder woudl keep a pup as long as it took to find just the right home and soemtimes they do have a pup longer.

she astaed that the pup was heart tested and of course we went and had our pup checked out before we became to attached, luckily no probs, however I understand about the heart condition of the ckc's as our beloved 'doris 'died of exactly that and ahe was 5, we got Doris from a lady whom had used her to breed from and she didnt basically want her after that, however all I can say is that she had 3 wonderfull years with us..............

Totally agree re-heart testing as this allows family's like us not to suffer again, we would have took her back if there had been any probs............

shaz

But what were her parents' and grandparents' hearts like? Did you see the certificates? Have they lived into double figures?

Also the bitch who died and this pup had some of the same grandparents and parents, if they were not tested I would be worried.

"We wanted to just get a puppy -pet not a show dog etc as we had tragically lost our beloved CKC-Doris very young and the papers she prodeuced re-our new pup they shared the same grandma and grandad which we thought was lovely."

It is imported that the ancestors over five years of age still have good hearts as well as having the parents heart tested.  This heart problem may not be apparent in the pup.

No they do not have the same parents...................

????

Our beloved Doris,great granmum and great grandad are our pups great-great grandma and great-great grandad

I saw the certificates!  But just lots of names to us, any name could be on there!!!!!

I understand totally what you guys are saying and been thro' the experience already we would not want to go through it again, re-heart condition in ckc's........

the breeder stated that all her dogs etc were fine and yes the is just a verbal comment we definately saw her mum, her dad well that is still the question if he is as he was to many of the pupps and litters there, we did see an old dear-bless her and she was 15 years old sat on a chair the others well , like I mentioned before there were obviously a lot of dogs in this outside building but I guess I will never know.  the main thing is the vet has throughully checked her out and she is fine apart from a cataract on her left eye which she was born with and will not affect her........so she is stayin with us even if she is crossed with a red setter, she would probably have been used for breeding if we haven't have got her, with us she is going to have a wonderful life....

This is a lesson learnt for us, we were virgins to purchasing a pup and knowing what to do, ....live n learn-Hey!!!

Shaz
XX

Bless you! :)  Just pass on the word to any firends who might be thinking of buying puppies that buying from people like this just give them the excuse to produce another litter!  I know it's tough but if they couldn't sell them, then they'd have to stop producing pups! :)

I will....thanks...........

It is very worrying and as this was our first time, we didnt know what to expect and how many litters a breeder has on the go, is all new to us, however, this breeder has people coming fron as far as cambridge and apart from two in two litters of the 6-8 weeks old (around 13 tiny ones) was only left..............plus the bitch-Black n tan was staring in labour as we were there too, .......so the breeder is doing ok, and probably will continue too, how do you stop them???

how do you stop them???
By not buying from them Shaz and making sure that you tell everyone that you can to do the same!  As I said, they onlt produce them because people will buy them.  Reputable breeder will have a waiting list for their puppies and not have puppies waiting there for you to collect the same day as you telephone.  Some people wouldn't want to wait even if they did understand the difference.  It's the 'I want it NOW' society that we live it! :(

I understand what you say because the average family only buy a new companion for their family every 15 years or so (if they are lucky and don't losing them earlier!) and so they have no idea the way that the dog world works.  I was always recommend that anyone looking for a good tempered, healthy pet puppy, who looks like a good respresentative of their breed, buys from someone breeding a litter to keep a puppy from themselves to show - unless, of course, their are looking for a puppy to work or do agility ot obedience with!! :)  I would tell them to avoid people producing puppies to sell, whether in quantity or producing a litter from their pet.  Most show dogs are firstly pets anyway.

Just seen your latest post.  Shaz, for £500 you could have bought a maybe not well marked, but well bred Cavalier from an experienced breeder who health checks all their stock! :(

Keeping all fingers crossed for her future health and happiness, adn if she is not what she is purported to be I do hpe you throw tye book at the breeder, as I know it doesn't matter to you now what she is, but the breeder must not be allowed to get away with cheating the public if that is what has happened, relying on your love for your pup.

Do they heart tested puppies?  I thought that it was important that the parents and grand parents were heart teasted before they were bred from?  Those would be the results that I would want to see before buying a Cavalier.

Sorry Brainless, but you should mate the wholecolours to parti colours every few generations or you can lose the quality in the wholecolours. My tricolour is beautifullymarked and made (except for a freckle on her blaze!) and she is out of a ruby bitch by a tri dog. Lots of people do it - yes, you risk a few mismarkings, but it's better than the poor quality whole colours that can appear if never mixed with partis. I say CAN because it doesn't always happen of course!

The OP's puppy could be a cross, but more likely is just an oversized pet quality puppy who will still be a lovely friend for life. :-)

They didn't mix them in my time - but then I'm old and times change!! ;)  I used to have a Weaverley tri bitch from Sheila Somerscales in Whitney. :)

> They didn't mix them in my time - but then I'm old and times change <

Oddly enough from talking to some of the more senior ladies in Cavaliers they still do a solid to a parti & tell me that in the past it wasn't a matter of colour(as in Parti/Solid) but of matching the good & bad in each dog.irrespective of colour

In Charlies they are not bothered about freckles etc still do solid to a parti on a regular basis

I was obviously mixing in the wrong circles!! ;)

LOL we are talking of from the start of cavaliers in the 20's & especially after WWII  when most breeds needed to improve. I know a breeder who has done Blenheim to solid & got all four colours & no mismarks but she does know what she is doing. The blenheim in the litter's chestnut was really deep !

Breeding constantly blenheim to blenheim(especially the lightly marked ones)results in very pale chestnut. The trend at the moment is for mainly more heavily marked blenheims(which I prefer TBH)they all have much better chestnut markings

Golly, even I wasn't around then!!! ;):)  My experience was 20 years ago - not in the 20s!!

LOL :D me neither !

Yes!! Brainless agree with you all the way!! It sounds a little like puppy farming.
The pup may not be from good stock! So could look quite diffrent from some of
the breed. I have see some of my breed that looks like crosses. But! are not,
just not off good stock.
Regards
Denese

Did your breeder show her Cavaliers of did she just produce puppies to sell?

She had loads of cavaliers, in fact I really dont know how many as she went off to an outside building ......then she came back with our pups mum, whom has a black and tan girl she was lovely and our pup went straight to her, there were two litters of pups in the house 6 weeks and 8 weeks old many already sold plus a female ckc was about to have litter as we was there!

Shaz
xxx

Moonmaiden correct me if I am wrong but would you expect to get a Ruby out of a Black and Tan x Belenheim mating?  Probably yes if the breeder indiscriminately mates all four colours without a care to correct markings or colour.

You could get all four colours without mismarks if you know what you are doing-which is the key of course. It's a case of looking & knowing the pedigrees not to get mismarks. On the otherhand it's the inner dog that is important & some mismarks are really pretty. TBH I would rather have a healthy mismark than an unhealthy correctly marked dog, but healthy & correctly marked is best of course

Mmmm.  Doesn't sound good does it?  It could be a cross or just a very poor quality Cavalier. 
If a breeder isn't trying to breed to the breed standard, and is just breeding a poor quality bitch to a poor quality dog, then you eventually get pups, who may have pedigrees (and a pedigree is just a collection of names - no guarantee of quality. :( )but bear little resemblance to their breed. 
That's one of the reasons why breeders on this site try to encourage responsible breeder rather than people mating their pets, because families like your deserve a pet who is good tempered, healthy and a good representative of its breed.

Brainless chances are it would be a mismarked Ruby - Ruby with white markings, maybe chest, toes etc.  Generally Cavalier breeders don't mix particolours with solids.

Hi shaz

You can't heart test a pup, I believe - it is the parents which have to be heart tested before breeding, because a pup is too young for it. 

I just wanted to point out that I think a lot of people, like you, believe that there is a kind of "difference" between a "show" litter and a "pet" litter, but you see that's not the case if you go to the right kind of breeder.  When a breeder who also shows has a litter, there will probably only be one or two pups which are "good" enough to be show quality.  The rest of the litter will be sold to pet homes.  However, even though they are sold to pet homes, they will still have had their parents heart tested, and they themselves will have been socialised, fed, cared for, played with, and will grow up inside a family house and not outside in a pen.  So, next time you get a pup, find a show breeder and tell them you want a pup for a pet.  They will sell you one which mentally and health-wise is just as good as any show dog - it might just not be "conformation/show" wise as good, but you won't mind because you don't want to show.  So - that's the kind of breeder to go to.  It probably won't cost any more than the one you just bought, either.  (how much did she charge you for her?)

Also, next time you buy a pup, make sure it is, at the oldest, 12 wks old.  Because the sooner/earlier you get the pup the better, as you only have a certain amount of time to socialise them to new things and to other pups and dogs.  It's thought that this "window of opportunity" to socialise them ends at 18 wks.  So really you got a pup just a week before the window closed. 

Hope it works out ok...

hi onetwothree

we paid 450 let us have her 50 cheaper as she hadn't had her injections....................

we got another 50 back this week as pup as a cataract..............................


She is doing great, but we are concerned even more now that she is a cross breed (which is not a problem, may I add) but obviously we have been sold down the river, and hubbie turns very green (looks like jolly green gianT) LOL when we have been conned.............

Shaz

Shaz, if you genuinely think she's not pedigree, when that's what she was sold as, you must have her DNA tested. Obviously the breeder will have to co-operate because samples will be needed from the purported sire and dam. Otherwise you're allowing her to get away with conning you - and every single person who lets her get away with it ensures she does it again, and again, and again.

I can't stress enough how seriously you should take this. A crossbreed shouldn't cost more than £150 or thereabouts.

If you really believe this to be a cross breed,contact the K.C. AND LET THEM KNOW.tHEY CAN INSIST ON A D.N.A. TEST,it is only £15.00 pounds a dog.If this person is riping people off then the K.C. need to revoke there K.C. papers.Plus it is fraud if the D.N.A. is not matching.I would push the matter with the K.C.

I think that I would also be telephoning the local council, to see if this particular person has a breeder's licence - as it would seem that she most certainly should have one.

I would also be inclined to let the Inland Revenue know that there could be an undeclared source of income for this person.....if errors can be made over the registration of a puppy, no doubt "errors" could be made when filling in Inland Revenue/benefits forms .

Margot

We received the KC papers this week fro the breeder(kept them) as we paid by cheque......anyhow when the papers came I noticed she had dated it 02/05/05 and then altered it to 02/09/05, our pup was born on the 7th June and we bought her on the 9th October, I have sent the papers off immediately to get her registered with us a.s.a.p....

I will wait till papers are back the take it from there with all your advice, as I need some proof, and our cheque went thro' no probs to the breeder in fact it went thro' very fast

Shaz
XXXXX

It sounds like you've been given the papers for the wrong dog! :(

Shaz, is there any way you can post a photo of her up?  I'm not a Cavalier person, but I'm sure other people here are, and if they see a photo they might be able to give you a better idea about whether she's a crossbreed or not...

www.photobucket.com is a site you can place photos for free on, and then post the link here.

Yes Shaz, put a picture up or email me one if you want, I'm sure lots of people on here would be able to tell you for sure.

Hi Lucy

If you Pm me then I will send u a piccie of her........for you to have a look at!!!!

Kin regards

Shaz
XXXX

Hi Shaz, I've seen the pics you gave us a link to - no doubt in my mind she is definitely purebred (not not perhaps well bred) Cavalier. She has slightly long legs perhaps, but that's mostly gangly puppy - quite a few around have short legs, specially they can look short if they're fat! Your puppy perhaps looks a bit thin, probably because she had that poor start in life - but don't go to extremes and make her fat! She is quite badly mismarked (for show!) with the white on her chest, head and paws, but as a pet it makes her look even cuter. And there's nothing wrong with the main colour, lovely rich red as stated in the breed standard. Hope all goes well with her, keep us updated! :-)

thanks Lucy...I will do, we won't allow her too get fat......and she is slowly eating her pup food, she just a macakeral with brown rice and wolfed it down, she likes an egg too,..............vet said she was slightly underweight(weighed 7lb) ........

Go back to vets on thursday for last injection so I will ask her load more questions

Shaz
XXXX

have to agree the markings are gorgeous

XXX

Pics of Our pup 'Annie'...........................(if Interested)

Hope you guys n gals may be able to help with your comments.

Thanks

Shaz
XXXX

http://photobucket.com/albums/c347/shazbaz35/

Awh bless her she's a real cutie & doesn't look like a cross. Maybe not the best "type"of cavalier from a show point of view, but a cavalier none the less

She's a puppy & they all go through changes & some grow faster than others & some go up & other go long.etc. Even in the best bred litters you can get mismarks(due to the mix in the past breeding)

Enjoy her I'm sure my boys woould love to play with her & teach her lots of naughty tricks !! ;)

She looks like a Cavalier to me!  May not bred by someone whose aiming for the breed standard and I'm sorry about her eye defect, but I'm sure that she'll make a lovely family companion, which is what you bought her for.:)
I would suggest that you look at insurance that gives life long cover as her breeder doesn't appear to be concerned about health issues.

Thanks Guys

Have to admit she is gorgeous, we don't care about her been perfect as regards markings etc...........as long as she is healthy, it is a shame about her eye but the vet said that she will not go blind its just like us having to wear glasses..............

She absoloutely loves kids any( not to eat tho' LOL)................anybody who comes round she gets very excited, thanks for your opinions on her been a CKC it would not have bothered us.........but would have gone to town on this breeder, which is only fair for other people too.......

Any suggestions re-insurance as free 6 weeks runs out in November, don't know which one to go with..............

Shaz
XXXX

Have a look at Marks & Spencer.

I would still spread the word that there are better places to buy a puppy from! ;)

will do, thank you very much.........................

will go now to have a look

Cheers

Shaz
xxxx

I'm not a fan of insurance, but given the situation, I think that it could be wise!;)