Well said Ice Queen.  I get so fed up of people harping on about "faces" winning, as if the consistently handle lousy dogs and just win regardless.  Douggie is a fabulous young dog, superbly presented and handled - and wins because of his quality, not because it is Mike on the end of the lead (although this helps, due to his ability not his face ;) )  IF people would stop feelig bitter and done down, and take the time to look at the dogs beating them, then look at their own, they might find that sometimes it is acutally becasue they are better dogs, better handled!  Top kennels DO NOT stay top kennels by showing poor dogs, they stay at the top because they pcik the best they breed, they have carefully thought out breeding programes, and they are honest with themselves about their own stock.  If something is not making the grade then it retires from the show ring.
bye
Gwen

I'm not writing of all breeds just the ones I know & I'm not even thinking my dogs should win, but come on at one show in one of the breeds I have a reasonable knowledge of a blatantly lame dog  got the CC. Not unsound but lame & it wasn't one of the top dogs the bitch got BOB via the group judge who left the ring saying to the steward-couldn't the dog judge see his dog is lame ? A month or so later the dog judge got the CC with his exhibit under his CC winning dog's owner Nuff said

Not saying what breed but totally blatant tit for tat judging

Hi Moonmaiden, I should have directed my earlier tirade better - sorry, it was not aimed at your posts at all, which seemed very reasoned and sound, although I rarely get to watch Cavs these days (last time was at Toydog UK)  I was having a moan at Newfie and Blackberry (hope I got names right).  I agree with you that some judges could be better, some are crooked and some don't seem to know one end of the breed from another!  Have seen some blatant ticket swops over the years, but I think the regular exhibitor is getting wise and voting with their feet by not entering where they feel this is likely to be going on.  Will be interesting ot see how the KC new initiative on this will effect things, I can't see how it will be policed, but perhaps knowing someone may be watching will make people think twice when it is blatant?
bye
Gwen

I doubt anything will change much CC swopping has gone on in GSDs for years on both sides of the breed ;)

Val,  in reply to your comments everything you mention is; of course true.    All of my doggy friends have been doing it for years (showing) with their various breeds.  I,ve been to loads of shows with them up and down the country over the years and on the whole we have a great day out.  One thing they all say is "You need to grow a thick skin" hee hee. As long as we are JUDGED fairly and independently we all go home happy.  What more can a dog handler ask for ? (apart from fairness)

But life isn't fair! :(  People are only human!  As I said, generally it is, with the odd hiccup, like every other hobby that you can get involved with. :)  It's still the best place to learn and share what you have in common - your dogs! :)

Moonmaiden i guess some of us are realistic and some of us dont want to be and will defend the game no matter what.   I have nothing to gain or lose as my puppy is a mere pet to me thankfully , but it doesnt take a brain scientist to realise what goes on in the dog show world, it took me only six months to suss it out for what it really is,  i,ll pat your back in June if you pat mine in September>   Ring any bells anyone ?

I remember feeling the same way BlackberryWay when I showed my first Rough Collie over 20 years ago.  I thought that she was the best thing since sliced bred and I loved her dearly, just as it should be.  I also used to slag off the 'faces' and couldn't see that their dogs were any better than mine.  Now, all these years later, I look at the half page advert that I put in the breed Year Book and laugh my socks off!  The bitch that I thought was worthy of being a Champion, was, is fact, not even the quality that I happily put into pet homes these days, let alone would think of taking into the ring!

Of course I have seen crap judging over the years, especially all rounders who are obviously lost in a strange breed and grab a familiar face at the end to give the ticket to!  I've seen ticket swapping and those who will do anything to win.  But that's human nature in any field.  Dog showing folk generally are passionate about their chosen breeds, strive to maintain and improve the breed standard and are happy when quality wins.
I consider myself to be very straightforward (blunt?) and realistic, as my posts on this board will show.  In my experience those who continually whinge that their dogs don't win are those whose dogs are not good enough quality to win!  And there was a time when I was one of those myself! ;)

It's still the best place to go to mix with like minded people, learn from those who have been involved for longer than ourselves, see what lines are producing what quality and temperament etc.  For those showing any interest in breeding, it's where they will find knowledge and experience to learn from as well as what lines to avoid.

Hi Blackberryway, I was not defending the game as a whole, with a blinkered view, but our own kennel, which had been the subject of a few jibes on this thread, a top winning kennel or dog is not just down to luck, however we have had 2 or 3 pelple here repeating that only a couple of Yankee kennel win, with the inference it is becasue of who they are, not which dogs are shown by them.  Val's reply speaks volumes, and says beautifully what I was trying to get across,  most of those who moan constantly about only faces winning, are in fact showing dogs not capable of winning.  When you come into the show world you do so thinking your dog is wonderful, otherwise why would you show it?  You then have a learning curve (or should do)  however, a lot of pelple never learn enough to remove the blinkers, simply prefering to put their own lack of success down anything other than the dog not being good enough.  They will always remain the also rans, as they cannot tell a good dog from a bad one, or are so kennel blind that they cannot see the truth, success will never come that way.  It is fantastic to have a big winning dog, and gets very wearing indeed to hear people (who have probably never even seen the dog close up)  whining about it.
bye
Gwen

The two Mikes(G & Bottomley)have been so successful because they have an eye for picking good dogs & the skill of breeding the same. I don't know Mike G but i've know Mike B since he first started in Americans & been with him through the heart break of good dogs developing problems & leaving him to virtually start over.

Mike B saw my Beardie Ch as a raw puppy & told me she was a winner & he was right.

They are both good handlers & that's what makes a good dog better & a great dog a top winner. Presentation also bearing a part in breed showing & again their dogs are put down to the minute. I missed seeing the Americans next to the Cavaliers this year at Darlington & saw Mike G handling a none too co operative youngest once with such patience & she/he eventually got going to show off the construction & movement that are part & parcel of a successful show dog. LOL I don't even know if the dog was one of his

I'm not blind to my dogs faults & know my current two are not Champions but they are good representatives of the breed & have breed type. They are however & always will be champions of my heart & I wouldn't swop them for all the champions in the world

However there are other top winners in other breeds from other kennels whose winning is open to debate as Gwen has said.