As it says on the tin - :)

As far as I know they are 100% banned in the UK, but not the US oddly enough.

Do you think this should remain the case, and please qualify yer comments.

:)

No, I don't think they should be banned. But I think there are an awful lot of owners out there who would be attracted to that breed because of its "reputation" and THEY should be banned from keeping any dogs!

I think responsible dog and pet ownership should be taught in schools and dogs should be licensed, but thats another story!

Well I suggested that on another thread last night, and I got severly battered for it - :)

I agree with what you say about PBT's, as well.

As many times before, I have to say dog is a dog. It is not born nasty or agressive, it mostly depends on how you train him. I don't think any breed itself should be banned, I would however have a lot to say about the people that decide to buy a certain breed with "bad" reputation. Everybody should be supervised and should be able to provide the right training and socialising for the dog....... all of that should be supervised by the state.

As I understand it the problem wasn't with the breed itself so much as with the purpose some people were breeding them for.  There were many dogs being bred purely for their fighting characteristics.  This meant that dogs being bred by idiots for this purpose were putting the general public and their pets at risk because some of the dogs were unpredictable and consequently dangerous. These people aren't interested in socialising these dogs as they were often status symbols.  I don't believe that if bred carefully they couldn't be good pets but at the time they were banned it seemed to be the poorly socialised  "well 'ard uncouf youf" that were strutting about with them.

Edited to say - the type of people that don't have driving licences, TV licences etc etc

The only way that they could be brought back was if there were stringent rules etc. for anyone to own one, but how could this be enforced?  I don't think it will ever happen.

I think they are banned in some areas of the US - certain counties in various states, I know they are banned in Dade County in Miami (I watch a lot of Miami Animal Police :D ), for the same reasons they are banned here - dodgy owners wanting "macho" dogs or fighting dogs.

I'd like to see them legal again I must admit - they are nice dogs if raised right - but you just know that the idiot quota of the population would start buying them and not socialising them right or, if the posts on here about the idiots encouraging their staffs to be aggressive are anything to go by, buying them to be nasty and fight :(

Sadly I don't think pits will ever be legal, ro at least not for a very long time, because as spanishwaterdog says, it would be extremely difficult to police them.  First things first, something should be done about the idiots owning these breeds (or any breed, really, if they aren't going to raise them properly) before legalising pits or any of the banned breeds is thought about.

To save any unsavoury peoples temptations to abuse the nature of these dogs, i would vote for leaving things as they are. I watch animal cops too and even though the dogs are banned in certain countys they still find bill bull fighting circuits, so to legalise this breed would just make things easier.

Pit Bulls staffys the list could go on and on.  it is not the dog that is dangerous but the owner.  No i don't believe any dog needs to be banned but thousands of irresponsible owners who let thier dogs charge up to others aggresively or out to wander knowing they will go after others do need banning.
A dog of uncertain temprement with a responsible owner should be of no threat to the public or any other dog.

Bev

The point I was trying to make was that there were people specifically breeding for the aggressive characteristics.  A dog that was a 'good' and 'aggressive' fighter would be the dog bred from.  Remember these dogs were being bred and trained for fighting and actually killing other equally aggressive dogs.  Whereas breeders normally attempt to breed out the poor characteristics and breed in the good characteristics there were Pit Bull breeders doing the opposite. There seemed to be an escalating problem of children being attacked as I remember which prompted the ban.  I think what scared people the most was that when the dog locked its jaws onto it's target it was virtually impossible to get the dog off.

but weren't they also bred to be excellent with humans and children?

They probably were bred to be good with people by responsible breeders.  Unfortunately, some things in life are hijacked and spoilt for others

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dogs-faq/breeds/apbt/part1/

>Whereas breeders normally attempt to breed out the poor characteristics and breed in the good characteristics >there were Pit Bull breeders doing the opposite. There seemed to be an escalating problem of children being >attacked as I remember which prompted the ban.

Well in reality really there were only 2 attacks, but ones that got much publicised, and it was SO easy for the government to jump up and ban the PitBull and the 3 other breeds as PitBulls weren't a KC recognised breed, the Japanese Tosa only existed in ONE dog in the UK, and the Dogo Argentino and Fila Brasliero weren't here at all. There were similar outcries not long before to ban Rottweilers, with een an action group formed (and the interesting difference was, the Rottweiler attack most talked about involved a child dying, the two PBT attacks did NOT result in anyobody losing their life, so that says a lot I think, about how silly the ban was) but of course they got nowhere there because it was a KC breed (and therefore with the KC standing up for them) with a lot of responsible breeders/owners as well as the few irresponsble ones.

Having said that, I don't think it would do any GOOD to allow PitBulls. The wrong people will most likely be attracted, and the resonsible are no doubt already involved in other breeds instead by now.

>I don't think it would do any GOOD to allow PitBulls. The wrong people will most likely be attracted, and the resonsible are no doubt already involved in other breeds instead by now.

My feelings exactly Marianne :(  I don't think banning breeds was or is the answer but bringing this breed back into open popularity (and we all know there are some out there) would most probably cause the wrong folks to go out of their way to get them for the wrong reasons.

My first two Belgians went through puppy hood and adolescence playing regularly with two separately owned APBTs - better friends they never found!  Sadly both these bitches' owners felt uncomfortable exercising them (muzzled and on leads) in local dog walking areas after the ban and I know both were neutered and went through the other legal requirements but it was such a shame at the time.   They ended up being exercised together into relatively old age in an old section of the cemetery under cover of darkness - the only time they could run loose and be free of a muzzle :( :( :( 

Sadly I think the better natured ones were probably mainly owned by the better owners in the first place and so those with the better temperaments and blood lines behind them were more likely to have been neutered leaving some of the less desirable breeders to carry on breeding simply for fighting and personal protection dogs.

Regards, Teri

Yes, I am afraid that I agree they should be band.  I have unfortunately seen at first hand what these dogs can do. You will never, ever stop unsavoury people from having these sort of dogs, you can legislate as much as you like, they will always find a way. Yes, very unfortunate for the breed who like all dogs are only what they are made to be at the hands of humans.  But I would happily do anything to minimise the horrors these dogs can do to another human being or dog, they literally rip their victim to pieces.

A bite from any dog can be horrendous, but these dogs are terrifying.

So on that note then, We should also ben staffordshire bull terriers, English bull terriers, Bulldogs, Rottweilers,Dobermans,Alsatians, GREAT DANES...And any other breed that is CAPABLE of hurting a human or another dog ??  :(

>And any other breed that is CAPABLE of hurting a human or another dog ??

That would be all breeds then....I was bitten by 3 different dogs as a child. All collies!! Every dog has the potential to inflict injury so where do we draw the line?

That was exactly my point Pit bulls are not really my cup of tea but in no way should the breed suffer or be punished for mindless people. I have only ever been bitten once and that was by an Alsatian, however i didnt think the breed should be banned and in my oppinion it was the owners fault for letting the dog run wild knowing it was aggressive(i wasn't the only person it bit) I have always owned staffies and have seen them being labled with this aggressive dog tag through yet again mindless people !!!

Ok, this is where you draw the line.

A poodle,   A labroadour,  A collie, A westie (care of our respected friend Jeangenie) and a Pitbull,  In 5 different rooms, all growling, all ready for a fight, fancy a good teeth sinking game with the first human it sees.

Thats YOU!  You can shut yourself in the room with one of them,  which one?

That's where you draw the line! I bet no-one picks the pitbull. (Not unless they have a deathwish)

Sorry but thats hypothetically speaking though is'nt it?!  Years ago before the Pit Bull was banned I came into contact with these wonderful dogs, you probably have more chance of being bitten by any other breed than a Pit Bull.  I can see both sides of the coin, I belive they should stay banned to stop (or try to stop) idiotic people owning them.  In my opinion whoever stands at the other end of a lead IS more dangerous than any breed of dog.

:( That is just plain silly !!! But while we are playing silly games lets lock a pitbull, Rottweiler,Great Dane, Staff, Husky, Alsatian, Mastiff..... Which one would YOU choose ?? Or would you rather bam them all and just keep cute little fluffy dogs ??!!??

This really is the most narrow minded post i've read. It's like saying lennox lewis would hurt you more than Bruno would so lets kill him !!

If you dont like the breed thats fair enough but dont go suggesting that they are ALL bad because they aren't.

I agree with that.  The person was comparing apples with oranges.  For instance, I have been told that despite their fearsome rep, if a APBT came up against a Bull Terrier or a Staff, that the latter would certainly give it a run for it's money, so therefore, by that rationale, should BT's and Staffs be banned as well? 

Told by is heresay, but having said that I have heard that there are people that would like SBT and EBT banned.  Before I get lynched, I am not agreeing with that.

I think the police were big supporters of getting the PBT banned because it was these dogs that were often facing them when they went to raid drug dealers' homes.

I understand whay some people might not like them but the fact of the matter is they are a breed maybe not a KC rekognised breed but a breed none the less. What you are saying is basicly as good as killing off a whole breed !!! YES they were bred for a purpose but so was EVERY other breed, can a collie not be anything more than a family pet or does it have to do what it was bred for ?? Can a GS only be kept if you intend to use it what for what it was bred to do ?? The list is endless, The point i'm trying to make is ALL these breeds of dogs have sucsessfully been introduced to new lifestyles eg....family pets and have adapted well enough. The same applies to this subject given the chance and the right breeding. Please dont  deny the Pitbull that oppertunity. My main concern for this is not only for the pitbull but also for my breed (staffie) along with alot of others could go down the same route!!! Where does it stop, or do we just keep moving onto the next breed and try to banish them aswell ?? Breeders have worked DAMN hard to change the public image of the staffie and many other breeds and have been VERY sucsessfull in doing so. We dont need to start going backwards again.

Cain, Do you want the APBT re-introduced?

It's obvious that the breeders of Staffies have worked very hard.  Staffs are everywhere and you can't help but know them and the majority that I see are lovely pets.  The point about the PBT is that it does attract people that want to use it for what it has been designed for and that is fighting.  The breed I have is a Hunt Point Retrieve.  I don't work her but on her walks the traits that have been bred into her stand out miles.  She sweeps the ground from side to side, she springs pheasant and rabbits, the traits have been kept in the lines but she still makes a wonderful pet.  The same goes for other breeds but the PBT's traits are for efficiently fighting and killing, you can harness those traits or you could breed them out.  Unfortunately there will always be people that will want to keep those traits in so that they can be used for fighting.  So while you might have some breeders bringing on lovely pets you will also have a parallel line of breeders supplying dogs purely for the purpose of killing other dogs.  Is it worth it?

ooops post fell in wrong place

Not really that bothered either way.  I am happy with my BT, and if I did not have one of those, I would have a Staff.

:)

I think you're a cheeky monkey. Do you just like a bit of banter? ;)

I suppose I do, but it is more a case on forums of posting something that will lead to some good old fashioned debte, which I personally feel is the lifeblood of any forum, no matter it's content.  I could start a new thread called "Do you like dogs", but I suspect that this would be rather dull...

:)

hmm ok, not sure about any content though.  Debate is one thing but antagonising is another. 

What did you think of the link? I thought it was interesting because although it was pro PTB it was balanced and unbiased.  Tells you that the PTB is still being used for fighting in US though.  Is it worth reintroducing it here for the poor PTBs that would suffer?

I don't think to openly ask "Should PBT's be permitted in the UK" is especailly "antagonistic" in a forum ABOUT dogs.

It's really the sort of thing that one can surely answer "yes or "no" to..  :(

I wasn't talking about this post, I meant future posts ;)

Well, it is so subjective, how am I to know what is lively debate, and what is not? 

lol - that's the first good argument you've put up so far! I concede

;)  Don't feel bad about "conceding".  I represent the nature of the breed that I have - tenacious!

Are we talking at cross purposes here?  I wasn't conceding about PBTs :)

I'm too tired to care now.

Okay.  You win.  I think every animal should be banned, in fact I am going to microchip myself right now, and place myself on a register.

Nite nite

:)

Part timer :D

Cain,
I don't think your thread was antagonising, I agree we need good debates here or the whole thing gets stale.  One of my hobbies is playing Devil's Advocate just to get lively conversations started. (I recently defended hare coursing at work - that was a lively lunchtime as I am surrounded by vegetarians.) 

On a slightly lighter note: years ago when the whole APB thing was raging I used to be a social worker on a fairly tough estate in Birmingham.  One of the tactics employed to put me off home visits was the question, 'Do you like dogs? It's a PIT BULL you know!' I would say I really liked dogs and could I see it?  The back door would be opened with a flourish and in would lollop some vaguely Staffy-looking effort  that would slobber all over my feet while trying to climb on my lap -   and they always had names like 'Psycho' or 'Ripper'.  (In fact the only time I was bitten was by an elderly lady's JRTwhich was persistently humping my left leg and bit my right one when rejected.)

Carry on Cain, any more good topics coming to mind?

Well, I do run my own (non dog) forum, and the debates there are pretty amazing at times.

Alas, I cannot provide a link, as I was ticked off for doing that last time :(

"Alas, I cannot provide a link, as I was ticked off for doing that last time"

That is because it was against the rules and you agreed to abide by them before you post :rolleyes: Incidently, did you run a search of past threads before you started this topic? If you did you will have seen that this subject has been debated at length  :)

Yes, it is a silly analergy, but the Pitt Bull is still banned.  And there is a very good reason for this.  GSD's have a terrible rep. I have one by the way, love them to bits, but people cross the street when they see him.  They are not banned, nor Rotti's, Huskies, Great Danes, Dobbies etc. etc. None of them are banned. The Pitt Bull is banned because humans turned it into a killing, ripping machine. of course some are lovely affectionate dogs I'm not saying that! And if we could trust the human race they would still be here today. What I am saying is that human's have made this breed this way. It has been used, abused and turned into something it should not have been. They are banned for a reason these things are not done lightly. And as you can see from this post, there will have been an awful lot of controvasty and pro Pitt Bull fans fighting for this not to happen, but they were STILL banned.

There will always be differences of opinion, but I think that the right decision was made.

I got a nasty bite from a Westie when I was a child. ;)

The only dog that has ever bitten me was a Basenji so I'm claiming maximum points for originality and rarity there :D

The link I posted earlier is pro Pit Bull Terriers and yet they describe exactly how the breed has been engineered over the last 100 years to become an aggressive efficient fighting animal.  This is not to say that no other breed has individuals that are not aggressive through poor socialisation or ownership or that Pit Bulls cannot be socialised and be lovely friendly pets.  However, the Pit Bull has particular attributes that render it dangerous in the wrong or inexperienced hands.

IMO the Pit Bull has not been punished by being banned but has become a victim of its own breeders

Well, I got bit by an elderly crossbreed once, but it was on my eyebrow. I'm claiming points for danger - could've had me eye out! :D

Funnily enough, I knew a pitbull for 15 years till he died of old age and he never bit me or anybody else/thing for that matter. Can't see any point unbanning them. Maybe if they had been American Staffords (some original imports were) and recognized by the kennel club, things may have gone a different way. Pitbulls are not recognized by the AKC, where Am Staffs are.

For anyone who hasnt seen this.  shows the other side of pitbulls, and  a lot of mans cruelty.

http://gprime.net/flash.php/thepitbullproblem

I got bitten on the ankle by a jack russell so these should now be banned. Just kidding.  :)

All dogs have the potential to bite and if all the dogs that had a bad reputation be banned, what dogs would be left? I love my rottie and staffie, but they have been bred well and being brought up well. Ban the owner, not the dog.

To be honest, I would not be able to tell the difference between a pitbull or a staffie. There is a dog that lives near me, that looks like a staffie but has really long legs for one, thought it may have been a pitbull, but I couldn't say. I have seen some terrible programmes about attacks on people by pitbulls (mainly from the US) and one such incident was on an elderly woman who had 2 dogs that turned on her and nearly killed her apparently for no reason.

The point that everyone seems to be missing here is that Pitt Bulls were not banned for biting someone, as you say all dogs and breeds can do that, there would be no dogs if that were what this post is really about. Everyone keeps swinging this thread around repeating that various dogs have bitten them.  Pitt Bulls were not banned for biting people.  They were banned for being bred as fighting machines and for being suped up by breeders to become what a dog was not put on this earth to be.

You mainly find the people lobbying for Pitt Bulls back are owners of Staffie's and other lock jaw dogs, this is done out of their own fear for their own dog.  But there is no need to worry about your Staffie etc, although some dogs of all breeds may be abused and used unscrupulously the Staffie and other dogs of type are not being genetically engineered to be a threat to society, they are usually, beautiful, loving pets, who are a benefit to society.

This post is NOT about dog bites.

>They were banned for being bred as fighting machines

What do you think SBT's were designed as? ;)