the people at the puppy class recommended collars and not harness more confusion what do you all think?

My personal feeling? Go with what you are happy with, and what works for you. Everyone has their own opinion on things, but you have to live with it, not us. ;)

When we took our first puppies to dog training (now 3 1/2) we were told to get half check collars for training, and buckle collars for walking in the park, but when I got my new puppy they didn't give us any info about collars. Mine wear harnesses as well to stop them choking themselves if they start pulling madly, and they also double as car harnesses.

Start with a simple flat collar, and teach your puppy to walk on a loose lead, and you won't need a harness, half choke or headcollar..........

Never uses a dog walking harness for a car harness, they will fail in the event of an accident and your dog will be hurt.  Proper car harnesses are not expensive and are well worth the money.

Didn't make myself clear Dill, they are dual purpose walking and car harnesses that have an extra clip that goes on the car seat belt and then clips onto the lead. :-)

we started a new training class yesterday & were advised to use a leather half check collar. When I asked other doggy lovers they shot the trainer down in flames saying the collars were cruel & that I should find another trainer. However we enjoyed the first class & found the trainer firm but very kind - all of the pups took to her instantly - a few owners got a talking to though!!

I don't like half check collars.  They are unnecessary and they don't work.  They make annoying metallic noises all the time, to which the dog pays no attention.  And I think they look horrible.

Just my opinion.

Another fact: A good trainer doesn't mind about what equipment you use (as long as it's not cruel).  They will let you use a flat collar or a harness if you want, regardless of what they think is best.  This is because it is YOU who matters and how much the dog wants to work with you, not what collar you use.  If a trainer forced me to use a particular collar, I'd explain nicely my reasons for not wanting to, and if s/he persisted, then I'd leave.

What do you call a  half check can you describe it.  Mine doesn't make any noise and I am confused now in case I am using the wrong wording.  It is doesn't look odd at all.

I use a half check, it works better than a flat collar and doesnt look at all odd

I like the half checks, the metallic noise alerts the dog that the check is about to happen, without the feeling you might be completely throttling them! My friend used to insist on showing my boy in a full check, but after a few times (not that the dog minded, just me!) I asked her to use his usual half check and she seemed to be happy with that by the end of the class. :-)

They are also useful for breeds with a dense ruff/small head that back out of collars. If I walk my shelties in a plain rolled collar, half the time I have an empty collar with a sheltie trotting neatly beside it. :D

I didn't say "odd" - I said horrible!!

I just personally don't like the fabric/chain element to them.

A half check is usually a mostly fabric/webbing collar which has chain for part of it.  Some people fit them so that when tight they still do not restrict the neck, whereas others use them more as a 'choke' lead which does tighten on the neck when pulled.

The chain usually makes a noise when tightening.

It is possible to get half checks that are made entirely of webbing - they still tighten when pulled but don't make a noise because there is no chain.

> I don't like half check collars.  They are unnecessary and they don't work.  They make annoying metallic noises all the time, to which the dog pays no attention.  And I think they look horrible. <

Hm I take it you don't like half checks ? What collars do you use ?

> Another fact: A good trainer doesn't mind about what equipment you use (as long as it's not cruel).  They will let you use a flat collar or a harness if you want, regardless of what they think is best. <

Interesting, so chokers are ok then ? harnesses that mean you have no control over the dogs head are ok ?

If anyone comes to me for training & insists on using a choker they are refused & I will not train any one who uses a choker Too many dogs have been  damaged using them

Harnesses do not stop a dog pulling they simply stop the dog choking itself

I don't use a collar or lead training my puppies to walk to heel so when I come to take them outside on a lead they walk to heel because that is where they want to be not beacuse they have been forced to do so by the use of constraint(the leads). They never learn to pull, they do wear collars(as required by law)the cavaliers have rolled ones, the GSD a bio flow collar & my BC has a special flat breakaway collar that releases if he gets it snagged anywhere. At club he wears a halk check collar & lead as no one has a dog off lead at training unless it is part of the training at the time

Half checks do work if used correctly & are far better that a choker the old choice of dog trainers from years ago

Hi Moonmaiden
Where do you buy the breakaway collars as I'd like some for mine?

A good trainer will help you to train your pup to walk on a loose lead, using a flat collar.  Older dogs may be a different matter, as they may have long established habits which may require a variety of equipment.

From training lines They are not cheap, but then neither is the value of my pup's life to me, You need to scroll down the page a bit. Very efficient & quick ordered mine one night & it arrived two mornings later !

They are the real mccoy I know there are some on E bay sometimes a friend got one & it came just in a paaded envelope no instructions etc & it looked like it was used(supposed to be new !)

I use all flat collars.

No, chokers are not "ok", IMO - read what I said:  "as long as it's not cruel"

As long as someone's chosen method of restraining their dog is not cruel, then a good trainer should allow them to choose what to use.  That is what I said.

For example: Personally, I don't use harnesses.  But if someone came to one of my classes and wanted to use a harness, then I would have no problem with that.

"Half checks do work if used correctly"

From my experience, I disagree with that statement.  I have never known them to work.  I would be interested if you could explain, using learning theory, on what principles they work?

> No, chokers are not "ok", IMO - read what I said:  "as long as it's not cruel" <

The people who use them don't consider them cruel-if they are then all services & police dogs are trained cruelly

> From my experience, I disagree with that statement.  I have never known them to work.  I would be interested if you could explain, using learning theory, on what principles they work? <

Oh dear why do I have to explain the theory-you as a trainer/behaviourist should know it & why of course IYO it doesn't work

My dogs wear collars simply to comply with the law they do not need them(not even fot their ID as they are tattooed)They are trained off lead(like many others who do obedience)& without constraint. Anyone I help is shown my method of training off lead for them to practice at home, because they train off lead their dogs cease to pull because they stay with their owners from choice. Even using a flat collar is not teaching the dog to walk with the owner because it wants to it's using constraint. Off lead is a much harder method, but the result IMHO(& experience)is far better & more rewarding

Don't forget pet dog training classes are to teach the owner the methods & not train the dog

Moonmaiden, I'm not quite sure where you're going with this.

You misread one of my posts and then jumped down my throat.

I explained what I meant.

But instead of accepting, or even just not replying, you've decided that you can't be seen to be wrong and want to continue to disagree with me, no matter what the subject is.  (You're now not even talking about anything I mentioned in my post, with the training off lead idea.)

Obviously the people who use chokers don't consider them to be cruel.  I'm sorry, I should have said "as long as it's not cruel IN MY OPINION".  Just like I should have begun this post by saying "You misread one of my posts and then jumped down my throat IN MY OPINION".  Obviously anything anyone says on here is their opinion, if they don't attribute it to another source.  And I'm not sure if anyone could have read me saying "as long as it's not cruel" to mean anything apart from "as long as it's not what I would consider cruel".

You then fail to explain why you think half checks work, but make some throw away remark about my being a trainer or behaviourist and then go onto a completely different topic - training dogs to walk at heel without using a collar.  It must be lovely for you not to have to take your pups anywhere where they might get run over while you're doing this training, but I'm afraid that the vast majority of the British public need to walk around roads and streets with their pups and young dogs for socialisation purposes before having trained them to walk at heel, and they're not likely to try doing that without some kind of restraint.... !!  I'd also suggest that different breeds are more or less easy to be taught to walk at heel off lead.  If you didn't take a breed like a boxer out until it walked at heel, well it might not see anything apart from your garden for the first 3 yrs of its life.  Which can't be a good idea, surely?

My pupils can get their dogs walking to heel off lead at home in less than a week with a few minutes a day with a puppy of 12 weeks upwards so by the time they are out of the post vaccination period they are ready to be taken out on a lead having already learnt how to walk nicely off the lead.

Have you never trained a puppy to walk on a loose lead either then ? similar technique just that you have a lead on & keep it loose

There are too many dogs taught to pull by their owners who are either not aware that they should train at home & not on the streets or too lazy to bother to train period

Even an older dog can be taught in a week as they can have more than one longer training session

It's not new I was taught to train this way in the 1960's(1964 to be more precise)with a nine month bitch that had been maltreated by a professional dog breaker)she wouldn't even have a flat collar put on after she had been sent away to train. It was then I threw out my one choker & had a special collar made by a saddler after she learnt to walk to heel off lead(took 10 days straight training three times a day) & with the help of the trainer managed to get the collar on her It was I suppose the forerunner of an all leather half check that never fully tightened on her neck

BTW I was brought up with Boxers(my grandad had them for over 70 years)he never had a collar attached to a lead on them just the collar & name tag required by law except at shows & his were always well behaved & trained from beiing young

Sadly most modern pet owners expect their dogs to walk on lead without training & until they are shown otherwise their dogs will pull on the lead  They see dog training clubs as places to teach their dogs not learn themselves to train the dogs. I see everyweek at a club I go to(I'm not a trainer there). Last week I was asked why my 5 month old puppy did heelwork off lead & on lead without having to be tugged & manhandled. Their five year BC still hasn't been trained properly because it is only trained at the club. This is the reason I won't be a trainer there. The people who come to me for help get set homework to do & because they do it their dogs end up trained. I don't allow chokers or harnesses.  What people use away from me is up to them

Not sure why you wouldn't allow harnesses???

Of course I have trained dogs to walk on a loose lead.  It usually takes the entire first year of their life, working on it every single day.  I certainly don't believe it's possible to train some of the more 'pulling' breeds in 10 days, no. 

What happens when the criteria are raised and distractions introduced?  If you're telling me you can train this in your back garden and then it remains the same when you take your pup out - sorry but either you have a very easy breed or I don't believe you!!  The number of people whose dogs will heel beautifully off lead in their garden must be a huge number.  Those same dogs often won't maintain that outside:  What happens when another dog passes by?  What happens when crisp packets blow along the road by the pup?  What happens when the pup wants to scrape feet and run around after toileting?  What happens when you change the criteria with the surface you walk on, sand, ground, grass, gravel?  What happens when you have a gundog and are in a gamey area?  What happens when there is rubbish and food remnants left on the road?  If your method involves giving treats when the dog is in the correct position, what happens when you reduce the treats given and then stop them?  Within 10 days?  That's fading a reward too soon and it wouldn't work.

Sorry, but I don't believe that in 10 days you can get a pup to ignore all that and remain at heel.  The world is too interesting to them, and rightly so.  In fact, I wouldn't want a puppy of 12 wks to be learning to walk at heel yet because I believe it should be concentrating on taking in all the new experiences outside and socialisation, not maintaining a position by me.  As long as the pup doesn't learn to pull, that's all you can ask at that age.  If a pup was walking to heel at that age, I would think I had unduely suppressed it.

Obviously you have some miracle technique which isn't mentioned in any dog training books.

Onetwothree, I thank you for this post - I was starting to feel like a complete failure as my 5 month pup is still very excitable when out & doesn't walk very well to heel for more than a short spell - walks beautifully on & off lead in the garden.We have started classes so hope this helps us both.

Of course I have really easy breeds Don't Border Collies(ISDS reg)come fully trainied & GSDs as well as Cavaliers X breeds & Beardies ? No gosh I must have been so lucky that mine did. Never owned a hunting dog but have helped retrain a good few poorly trained ones including the local gamekeepers bought in"trained"doggreat in the field but pulled his arms nearly out of the sockets on a lead

Gosh a whole year of pulling before the dog stops perhaps you should get one of the above born trained breeds like I have had. No wonder my first BC won out of Beginners & Novice at 7 months I must have been the only person not to have to train for 10 months to stop my dog pulling & get heelwork on & off lead good enough to win. Oh course she'd never been allowed to do anything from 8 weeks of age but obedience training 24/7 & robotic too boot, I wonder when she learnt to work sheep as well by 12 months to a basic level & upto novice trial level by 18 months-ah I forgot she was born trained !

No miracle training & course puppies stop & sniff & look at things mine just don't pull to do so. My dogs tend not to poop away from home there's enough dog mess from roaming dogs without mine(& yes I do clean up after my dogs if on the very rare occasion they go away from home). If they get distracted they come back to heel with encouragement. What they don't do is pull because they've learnt to walk at heel & not pull because they had nothing to pull against

Why isn't it in any books ? haven't a clue I was taught by an RAF military policeman-not a dog handler-who must have learnt it somewhere as he learnt to train his personal GSD from a book. Treats not with my dogs in heelwork training(yes for other training sometimes)& my current puppy isn't food orientated when training. BTW he's 5 1/2 months old has a drop, sit & stand on command away from me, an instant safety down, good recall with distractions & brilliant retrieve. Oh & yes he walks nicely at heel & is just starting his obedience heelwork training.

The secret in dog training is ..................training ! not really a secret at all The more fun training the quicker the result, you don't train then your dog doesn't learn simple really

No harnesses because I don't like them If the owners use them away from my training that's up to them as I have already written

Moonmaiden, my problem with your dismissive attitude is exactly that shown by bint's post.

For many breeds it is simply not possible to have them walking to heel perfectly in 10 days.  To insist that it is possible, for any breed, and to speak dismissively of those who have failed to achieve this is not constructive.  Myself and others who know how hard it is to train certain breeds will see this and disregard what you are saying.  Not so new owners - like bint, for eg - they are likely to feel very inferior and as if they are failures when they fail to immediately get their dogs to walk at heel and are likely then to conclude that they never will, and give up.  I personally don't think that's a very good attitude to encourage, when a little bit of perseverance and consistency will see them with a dog walking at heel - albeit in several months.

Yes, for what it's worth, I have known many border collies, GSDs beardies and Cavaliers walking perfectly well to heel after minimum effort.  3 of these breeds are known to be exceptionally "trainable" and one is a toy breed which is not particularly renowned for pulling.  I've also seen many labs and goldies walking at heel very quickly.  On the other hand, I've seen people with spaniels, GSPs, Vizslas and many other of the HPR breeds struggle for a long time to get their dogs to walk at heel, and not because of their methods but because of their breed.

To deny that there is a difference and to insist that it is possible to train any breed to walk at heel in 10 days under all distractions is simply preposterous and will make many people who own a "harder" breed to train at heel, feel like failures when their young dogs are not yet heeling.

Half checks and martingale collars are the only type that my dog cannot back out of.  Her head is far narrower than her neck, and other collars slip over with ease.  I must say I never hear them make a noise and I would rather have a safe collar than a pretty collar.

I have seen many dogs get out of their half checks because it is only when they are tight that they cannot slip them.  When they are loose, I have seen dogs learn to just slip them off when their owner is busy talking.  A properly fitted flat collar should not be able to be slipped out of.  Of course if it's fitted too loosely, then it would be able to.  There may be a very small minority of breeds who have incredibly thick chunky necks, over which a flat collar could slip because their neck is basically as wide as their head.  A harness would be a much better idea for them.

Hi Onetwothree, I have an Irish Terrier. Her head is far smaller than her neck (midway neck is 14 inches, head is 11 inches).  No matter how tight I would make a flat collar it would still slip over her head . I have tried her with various harnesses and she has managed to wriggle out of everyone - she is a bit of an escape artist.  I felt that no matter how tight the harness was, if she pulled back hard enough she either got completely out of it or got a leg or two out. She was always left with some nasty rubbed marks behind her elbow. She hates harnesses with a passion now.  The half check and martingales have been a godsend and she has never once escaped.  I have never used them for training as she walks to heal very well, except when she has been spooked by something. 

That's exactly my experience with shelties. They have never got out of half checks, but they back out of any plain collar without me even feeling them go.

This post was about puppy trainig classes. How do you train/control a puppy in a harness?

In my 30 years as a trainer hardly anyone I have encountered has been able  to teach their dog to walk correctly on a harness.  They are a stop gap only to allow you to walk your dog without having your arm pulled out of its socket while proper training takes place.  A dog walking on a harness does not 'learn' anything, the harness only serves to prevent a dog from leaning into its collar and steaming ahead.    

There are some dogs whose temperaments are such that they don't pull but, IMO and experience, for those who do the best way to ensure the dog actually learns what we want ie to walk on a loose lead is to train it on a collar and lead.  It really doesn't matter whether the collar is a flat buckle, a half check, slip lead etc.

Given all your responses I think my interpretation of a half check is indeed what I thought it was.  I always use one in the show ring.  It doesn't choke or startle the dog, by making a noise - I expect this is the metal element rubbing against itself, it does communicate down the lead what I expect of my dog.  They don't pull against it or try to back out of it and it is not tight but will not slip over the head.  It is made of rolled leather and watch fob chain.

When walking two or three dogs at a time I use a half check lead.  They don't pull into it and it doesn't get so tight that they choke, they are smart enough to realise that a little lessening of pull pressure lessens the tension on a lead.  They were all trained with a flat leather collar and as youngsters they would enter classes on one leg pulling for all they were worth but they learned not to do this before we progressed to a half check.  With hind site the training period may have been quicker if I had used a half check then but there's nothing like doing it the hard way is there?

Thanks Moonmaiden - not expensive if they prevent your dogs stringing themselves up!

Your welcome Anwen

I think people are misunderstanding what I'm saying here.

I'm not saying they are, by themselves, harmful to the dog or that the noise scares the dog.  I personally just don't like the way they look, and I find it irritating to walk along and hear the metal links pulling and releasing as the dog moves.  It's got nothing to do with hurting the dog or scaring the dog - just my personal taste.  :)

By themselves, half checks are not _IMO_ cruel if they are set up to not restrict any of the dog's throat when they tighten - then they are just like a flat collar.

My bugbear is that I do think that people put too much stock in half checks as a method of training.  The number of people who have told me they have been told by other trainers that their dog "will never walk at heel unless they use a half check" is incredible.  As though just putting a half check on your dog is like some kind of magic collar that instantly and by itself teaches the dog not to pull.  It doesn't. 

I personally know of many people who have successfully trained their dogs not to pull using a harness.

The way in which you restrain a dog isn't important.  It is how you train it that counts.  If you are training a dog to walk at heel by offering 'lead corrections' when the dog pulls, then yes, a dog probably won't learn to walk at heel using a harness because when you yank the lead, it's not doing the dog any harm and probably doesn't hurt much.  If you jerk the lead when the dog is wearing any kind of collar, yes it does hurt or at least cause discomfort, so a dog is likely to "learn" not to pull.

However, this is training using punishment, which is not something I personally go in for.  I would much rather click and treat a dog for maintaining correct heel position.  To do that, it doesn't matter whether the dog is wearing a harness, a half check or a halti or a collar - as long as it is consciously thinking about its position by your side, it is learning.

Unfortunately there are dogs who are easily trained and very biddable, and there are other dogs who are much more willful, they can be trained easily enough but will always question and challenge the owner, and can even be downright stubborn when they want to.  I have one of each, I have worked much harder, more often and for longer, training the wilful one than I have with the biddable one.  Yet the biddable one makes me look like a competant dog trainer (attitude is "I'll do it, just say the word")  and the wilful one often makes me look like I'm half hearted about training :( despite having put in more time, patience and ingenuity :(

I think we all need to remember this when discussing training, some breeds and some individuals in breeds are just much more independant and difficult to train to a reasonable standard than others.  This can make owners feel like a failiure, when they see others training their dogs and getting results while they are doing everything right but working with a dog who is just more independant/wilful ;)

I wouldn't use a harness on a big dog that's a determined dragger , it just gives them more leverage over you. Start with a leather buckle or nylon snap collar.

Some strong feelings up there, most of them quite informative.

I don't like harnesses, they're fiddly and used on sled dogs/weight pullers for a reason, in my humble opinion. Bog standard collars just fall off the little'uns neck/head, no matter how correctly fitted they are, full checks are too harsh for her, head collars I wouldn't risk as i can see her breaking her neck or something awful, but I do actually like the half-checks, it's also the only type she'll willingly put on herself (e.g I hold it out and she puts her head through) and one of the only ones where she'll actively heel without leash.
The only reason the harness was useful was I could grab her easily, she has very, very little in the way of fur and is too bloody swift for her own good (that'd be the whippet in her XD), but I do like the jingle a half check make, especially when she's gotten out of the house and is coming up behind you.

Anyway what someone uses is a personal choice, as well as being an individual matter for the dog involved. The old'un will heel nicely on a harness but pull like a maniac when on a collar, whilst the little'un doesn't pull in a harness I just find it far too fiddly for me, I just can't work them at 4 in the morning, plus she doesn't like them.

Ooo, rambled on a bit. I was recommended to use a harness by my puppy class, but again individual preference, what works best, etc.

Phew so after all that it doesn`t really matter too much hooray for personal choice