I've got a 13 week old GSD puppy named Tag.  He's an extremely clever pup, and is doing great with his housetraining (he never has an accident during the day, though he will most nights).  The concern I have is that Tag is the second pup I've had - the first was a lurcher pup, Riker, a couple of years ago.  During the night (and when we are out) Tag is extremely destructive, more so than Riker ever was.  He'll rip up anything and everything in his path, he even stands up to get at tables and desks to pull stuff down and chew up.  We do our best to clear things out of his way, but it's getting harder now he knows to get at tables and such.  Luckily, he has never touched any furniture yet though! His destruction is only overnight however (and when left alone, though to a lesser degree).

I was wondering if it's anything to be concerned about, my OH certainly is worried in case we should be doing more to stem this behaviour or if there's something specific that we're doing wrong.

A bit of background:

We have Jazz (aged 11) and Riker (aged 2).  Riker sleeps upstairs with us.  Jazz and Tag are in the living room with the door shut.  They are left downstairs for around 7 hours a night.  Tag's last feed is at around 7pm, as advised by the breeder.  We have tried a short walk before bedtime, but this actually seems to make Tag more uneasy, so we try now to wind him down a bit instead.

Crate training isn't really an option for us (to my knowledge) because we have the two older dogs as well.

Tag is intelligent and responds to sit, stay, paw, he's almost trained fully to walk to heel, and understands the meaning of "no", "go on", and "leave it" (used for dropping in fetch games).

So any input, your experiences, or advice?

There is no reason why your puppy cannot be in a crate, even if your older dogs are out of one.

This really is your only option to stop the destruction.  It will also help with his toilet training overnight.  Think about his safety too, if he has a free run of the living room, an electric cable could be next.

If you don't stop it now, then it will only get worse and your furniture will be next as he grows.  Just make sure the crate is big enough to accomodate him as he grows.

Is a crate the only option for this kind of behaviour? I'd really rather not have one in the long term, and I have to admit that I wonder how people coped before the advent of crating.  Are there other methods available?

However, I'm not stubborn on it.  If you know where I can find any information on crate training a puppy when there are older dogs loose (I've looked around, but there's no mention of other, uncrated dogs on the articles I've seen) it would be very helpful.

For his own safety he needs to be in a secure area where he has no access to electric wires or indeed anything he can ingest and cause himself harm which would be pretty much all soft furnishing etc, not to mention the safety of your home!
One of the main reasons I use a crate is precisely because the last couple of puppies I have had have been reared with adult dogs in the house as I have always regarded it as a curtesy to them :).  Initially though I use a puppy pen until they are able to go through the night without a wee which does give them a little more freedom, however they have never obtected to the closer confines of a reasonably sized crate in fact they seem to have found it very comforting and secure.  There is no reason why it has to be a crate though you could use any means of securing a small safe area free of any objects that can be destroyed by your pup, perhaps in the kitchen, utility area or porch, something like that but if that is not possible a crate will do the job for a certainty.  I'm sure your older dogs will be glad to see the back of him for a few hours every night :)

I'll probably get shot down but we've never had a problem at night because he sleeps in our room (downstairs bedroom). Our old dog has always had the run of the house & usually sleep in our room so we decided to let the pup do the same. He hasn't been caught short overnight since he was 9wks old because I used to get up & let him out when he started moving around,usually about the 4-5am mark. This only lasted for a few weeks,thank goodness! He has a bed in our room & one in the utility where he goes if I need to go out & leave him. If he is totally on his own & given the freedom of the house he will pinch clothing & put it on his bed,rip up newspapers,go in the bin if I've forgotten to move it,has started pinching letters etc from the kitchen bench but so far hasn't damaged anything really. He thought I was out this morning & while I was in the bath I could hear him tearing around the place having the time of his life. He was very surprised to see me suddenly appear. You got to love them though!!!

I don't see why you should be shot down :) lots of people have their dogs sleep with them the difference is he is supervised at that point (assuming you would wake up if he started shredding the mattress from around you :D)  I would, however, suggest that you do secure him when you are unable to supervise, particularly as you know he has a tendancy to rifle through and tear things it only takes a minute to ruin a decent rug or, God forbid, have a deadly nibble at the TV wire.  Personally, if I did have youngsters sleeping freerange in my bedroom I would ensure all electric cables were switched off at the sockets before settling down for the night.

Perhaps you should pop him into the utility whilst you take a bath, atleast that way he wont be tearing round the house getting into mischief :D
I always put kai (9mths) into our back room ( doggy proofed) if i want to take a bath etc..as you never know what he'll get upto next if i cant watch him :)

Having adopted a very destructive rescue at 6 months I would say that my crate saved my sanity. He's 2 1/2 now and is only in the crate when we are going to be out for a couple of hours. I think it's more that I can't just make that last jump.

My rescue boy runs upstairs to his crate when we are going out and in fact last week I put him in with his kong full of goodies. Came downstairs to get ready to go out and only realised 10 minutes later when the doorbell rang and he came downstairs that I'd forgotten to shut the door :D

I'd never thought that having other dogs loose would cause a problem and i've had no problems. Have had pup crated and 2 others loose

Anne

Korrok - Not sure why you think it will be a problem to have 2 older dogs loose and 1 in the crate? 

If we have a pup, we'd routinely crate the pup until it's about a year old - sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on the pup.  The older dogs are left free, because they can be trusted not to mess or destroy the house.

Dogs don't think like people.  They don't think "Oh it's not fair, X is out of the crate and free and I'm not" - they just don't have that mentality.  Especially if your older dogs just settle down and go to sleep at night, the pup is not likely to feel left out of anything.  There are no links online as to how to crate train a pup with older dogs around, simply because there is never a problem doing so - otherwise you'd have heard about it by now!

A crate would also stop the pup messing in the house at night, because pups don't like to soil their sleeping quarters.  So he will hold it in. 

It would also solve the destruction.

And no, you don't have to use one forever.  Some people just use one until their dog is toilet trained, others until they're 6mnths, others until they're a year, others use them forever.

Whether you get a crate or not, you should come downstairs and let the pup out if it is toileting in the night.  Allowing it to toilet inside sometimes is only giving it mixed messages - that sometimes it is ok to do so and other times not.  Set your alarm clock for the middle of the night, come down and take the pup out - whether you have a crate or not, you should do this.  But if you get a crate, you should definitely do it, because it's not fair to leave a pup in a crate when it doesn't want to soil its sleeping quarters but is bursting to go to the toilet.  (How would you like lying in bed for hours, bursting for the loo?) 

Here are some links you might find useful:

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/spt/SPT_Crate_Training_Info.htm

http://www.ddfl.org/behavior/cratetraining.htm

I agree that I do believe to some extent that it's a bit of a wind up for Tag, should one of the others go and aggravate him while he's crated.  Riker and he are very playful, in particular, and I was under the impression that Riker going and snuffling about or playing just outside would cause Tag to feel a bit...frustrated? :P

Another reason for my distaste of the crate is that I do want Tag to be in the house as something of a guard (though I by no means expect it of him, I would just *like* this to be the case) and deterrent to intruders.  He'd not be a particularly effecient deterrent if caged up through the night and when we're out.  How do dogs adapt once their crate training is over? Do they return to destructive behaviours once the crate is left open (or taken away)?

Considering he's only 13 wks old, he's not going to be much of a "guard" at the moment anyway!!!  By the time he is worth being a visual deterrent to burglars, he will be old enough not to need the crate anymore!

Dogs accept what you want them to accept.  They can be trained to do anything it's possible to train a dog to do.  That includes not being bothered by other dogs being loose in the room...

Dogs don't usually return to destructive behaviour because most destructive behaviour from young puppies is caused by the fact that they haven't yet learnt what it is ok and not ok to play with.  You need to be there to distract them or to say a gentle "no" for their trying to play with things they shouldn't.  If you're not there, the puppy doesn't learn this and will just play with everything.  If you only let the pup be free when he is supervised, then you are always there to make sure he "gets it right" by only playing with things he's allowed to.  By the time you stop using the crate, the dog will have learnt what it can and can't touch...

I don't use a crate, as such. But my pup has his own "den" in the kitchen which is the only room where he is allowed to stay unsupervised, precisely because there is nothing that he can get at which will harm him. He also likes the security of having his own little quiet corner since a whole house can be an awfully big world for a small pup - as it will be for yours!

Pups will destroy anything you let them get away with destroying but it doesn't take them long to realise exactly what they are and aren't allowed to have. Which is why you'll always see them run like hell when they get their little sharp teeth on some "contraband". :)

My dog was in a crate until one month ago.  During the day the crate was open and she would choose to go in and out at her leisure to sleep.   At night we never had any bother from her, she knew the routine and accepted it.  One month ago I left the door open for a few nights with no trouble.  She had rugs and blankets in the crate so I bought her a donut bed with the intention of putting it in the crate and then moving it out but things didn't go according to plan.  I was on the phone while opening the bag with the donut bed in, I threw it down on the floor, she climbed in and went to sleep.  It was as easy as that.  Had no bother with her, she curls up in her donut bed and doesn't move all night. :D

p.s. she could be a little s** during the day, ripping up clothes and paper,stealing items and hiding them so she was normal puppy

Well, Tag was at the vet yesterday (different reason) and I mentioned his destruction to her (she is by far the best vet I have used.  Brilliant.)

Rather than recommending a crate immediately, she told us to try a DAP diffuser.  And to give Tag some rawhide treats to munch on while we're out/asleep.  It'll take a week or so to see the full effects of the DAP, but we tried this last night and things were just so much better already - though I'm still wary that it's merely luck. ;) But still - promising start.

I would be careful giving rawhide treats especially when your not there to supervise the chewing of them.
A kong stuffed with something tasty would be far better. :)

Tag doesn't like the Kong, though today on eBay I bought some of Kong's own brand Stuff N (puppy variety) to see if that will tempt him any.  I've tried a whole bunch of homemade ideas but to no avail.

have you tried stuffing it with his food?

Yep, he gives up on it very quickly though.  He just isn't interested in trying to get it out.

He enjoys his Buster cube a lot more, but it makes so much noise that we can't actually sleep when he has it...XD

It depends on what is causing his destruction.  If it is boredom or just playing and puppy inquisitiveness, then a DAP isn't going to help.  If it is anxiety of any kind, then a DAP may well help.

Most pups destroy things because they're playing with them, not because they're anxious....

You won't have seen any benefits from a DAP yet because they take at least a week or so to work - they have to "fill" the room with the vapours from the DAP.

Like the previous poster says, raw hide can easily get stuck in your pup's throat and your dog can choke to death.  Raw hides should always be supervised.

I already stated that I was told it would take a week or so to work.  Try to be less patronising.

be prepared that it might also not work too. I used a DAP for anxiety and it did absolutely nothing for my dog. :)

Worth a try, though.  And of course, not everything works for every dog. ;)

"Try to be less patronising"

???

I'm not being patronising.  I meant everything I said.  I think you've been given some excellent advice here by a lot of different people, and all of the advice seems to indicate the same things to do.  Despite that, you've decided to try something else....  Obviously your dog, your destruction prob and you're free to do what you want, but there's not much point in asking for people's opinions if you go and do something else, something you would have done anyway, without any of those opinions....  You seem to on the one hand want our advice and on the other hand argue with any you are given.  Same thing on the rawhide subject now.

And to give Tag some rawhide treats to munch on while we're out/asleep.

AAHH!!  Is she trying to drum up trade??  If you do a search you'll read about lots of nasty situations arising from rawhide chews!  If you chose to give them, please don't give them to your dog when you're not watching. 
And of course, the cynical side of me would think "Vets don't sell crates, but they sell DAP defusers, don't they?"  But as long as it works, that's just fine. :)

Funny you should mention, but my vets do sell crates. ;)

I've actually looked online and found that many doggie resources on puppy chewing recommend rawhide, though. o_O

But do they also say that it should only be given under supervision?

No.  Specifically that they can be given to stop unwanted chewing when you're out.

Fair enough. I suppose a dog with a piece of sticky rawhide adhering to the lining of its throat won't be doing a lot of chewing ...

Can I take that comment to mean that you get so many idiots on this forum that you need to treat everybody like one? *raises eyebrow*

I couldn't possibly comment.

Perhaps your research into rawhide might delve a little deeper?

I'm more amazed at hearing a vet recommend rawhide chew while left alone - vets, more than anyone else, should know the danger and damage they can do!  :(

Korrok, can I ask why you are so against using a crate?  I know many, including myself, who were against them on principle (crates weren't used when we last had a puppy many years ago), and yet, all have been converted to their benefits.

That is scarey!  I don't often give my dogs such things - because I've seen them panic and scratch uncontrollably at their faces when they get it wedged across the roof of their mouths.  I dread to think what might happen if I wasn't there........

I have given my dogs rawhide in the past, but there's usually one time when the dog gets itself in trouble. Same with the hooves, ears etc...I dont feed rawhide anymore ( I believe they are actually treated with bleach etc too but you'd have to check as i'm not totally sure on that)... my view is that kongs are loads better, I haven't got your post in front of me, did you say he doesn't like Kongs?

Only there are  loads of kong recipes, he may prefer one from another...:P

DAPs are recommended for anxiety, and can be generally calming .. .but don't appear to affect all dogs. My dog is much improved over fireworks nights since we've been using the DAP for the last 2 years, I think it's a great invention for that particular problem :)

Lindsay
x

Also, all destruction behaviours are not necessarily caused by anxiety.

So for it to work, we're assuming 1. the DAP will work on this particular dog and 2. the cause of the destruction is anxiety.

Both seem a bit tenuous to me when a simple thing like a crate would solve it.

The nice thing about a crate is that it doesnt give the dog a chance to develop unwanted behaviours that initially as a pup may be 'playful' but can easily turn into 'destructive'. I have 4 older dogs all of whom were crate trained and now have 9 week old pup. The older dogs run free and the pup is crate trained.

It is his safety den as well as mine - he has a routine that incorporates a couple of hours crate time in the morning to get some rest, and again late afternoon. Other than that he will happily take himself in there to have a good chew on a nylabone or simply to get some rest from the others. He sleeps overnight in it and is more than happy - my older  dogs sniff round there and once know who is in there, leave it alone.

Crate training is safe for dog and owner, and most vets recommend it !!

Just one little statement to add and I wont say any more.  Rawhide chews can kill.  I know of someone who lost a Husky this way and others who have had to extricate pieces of rawhide from dogs throats before they choke.  They must always be supervised.  Change that statement not rawhide can kill, lack of supervision while eating them can kill.