Hi all
this is the first time as I am new to this forum, I have Samoyeds and American Cockers, yesterday I took my young Samoyed to a breed open show and he went BIS which was an absolute thrill for us. We imported this boy from New Zealand in April and he has a RCC already as well as winning puppy stakes at WELKS on Working and Pastoral day and runner up overall in Petplan Junior Stakes at SKC in May. He is a fantastic showman and never lets me down, my daughter also won best junior handler at the show handling my import so we had a really good day.I have been in sams for 20 years and appreciate every win I have as I have done alot of losing too LOL  I enjoy reading all the posts on this list as you always learn something new.

Jackie

Many congrats

Wow, well done :D What a dream come true, all the hard work does pay off in the end :)

Wow WELL DONE I have had a BIS before and the feeling was great! A great feeling isn't it!!!! unfortantly had to give dog, rosette and trouphy back to one owner when I came out the ring and the other owner screaming down the phone!!! :D

Well done

Fantastic, well done! I only have one BIS so far and that was a breed club show, so only Cavs there - but about 130 of them!! My poor Yankee is always last, so I think BIS a bit unlikely for him! :-)

You know you should never give up, I showed my yankee at crufts this year. the first time I have ever shown one there, I got 5th out of 5 dogs, I was totally heartbroken, he looked and behaved brilliantly, my husband, daughter and I had to hang around till 5pm to get out the blasted place when we had dogs back at the caravan, Well next day we were showing our sams we got the Dog CC with our import from USA (its been an uphill stuggle with him being an import) this was the first CC I had ever been handed in the ring!!! can you imagine it?? one day total devastation the next euphoria !!! it took me ages to get over it. Its a weird thing this dog showing. I have only had Yankee's for a couple of years but I have had a real sickener to be honest, you cant be always last Lucy cause I am lol

Ah but that is how it goes, one day you get the CC next show you get VHC or even unplaced.  I always look on it that someone else has had a turn at having a win, thankfully it never really bothers me as I enjoy the shows whatever :D 

Congrats on your win, it's a great feeling isn't it!  Sorry about Crufts, but of course every dog can't please every judge, how old is your Yankee?
bye
Gwen

Hi Gwen
my yankee is two years old, I will just show him at open shows I think, I really enjoy the challenge of trimming and the totally different way you handle them but feel totally on my own at shows. The thing is his sister has just been made up to a champion and his brother won Limit at Crufts but these people have been in the breed for years and I do realise you need to serve your time in any breed you are new too but its hard going.

It is important to remember that not every dog is of championship show potential, so have fun at open shows with him.  It is very hard buying a pup from a litter where several others are going to show - not many bitches can produce  every pup in a litter  to have show potential.  With 3 others going to be shown by the breeder and stud dog's owner, your chances were probably a little reduced.  Buying a pup from a reputable, highly thought of kennel which consistently produces winners from a wide selection of judges is probably the best way to ensure you get a quality pup.  We usually find that 3rd/4th etc pick  from our litters are  sold as pet pups.  (often 1st and 2nd pick too!) breeders need to be ruthless and honest with themselves in their evaluation of the pups, and even them, development can take lots of unforseen turns.  Well done with the Sami :)
bye
Gwen

>It is important to remember that not every dog is of championship show potential, so have fun at open shows with him>

That's just what I say about my boy Gwen he isn't a £20 an entry dog :D Wasn't bought for that but we have fun at breed open shows and club events and he's a joy to live with

Anne

Hi Gwen
Ooops I thought I had bought my boy from  a reputable breeder? who knew I was succesful in another breed and knew I wanted something champ show quality to show as we take our caravan to nearly all the champ shows so tend to be there most days so would have been pointless getting one that wasnt champ show quality! Also had long discussions with my friend who is a well known exhibitor/breeder of cockers in the states who was also of the opinion my boy would win under different judges. So I guess it must be my trimming or handling that is the problem, but guess what the breeder taught me all I know so I will be taking this up with her LOL

As I said in my previous reply, the chances of getting 4 pups in one litter all being big winners at Ch. shows are very, very limited.  And of course, even if 4 pups look very promising, they can all mature differently.  Dawn/Nursey (if she is reading this) will confirm this - she has litter brother to 2  Yankees who both made Top Gundog (one twice), but her boy while very promising as a pup did not mature to the standard of his siblings (but he is still a much loved pet)It is often hard to accept that a pup has not grown on as hoped, but it happens.  And some people in the breed are much better at presentation than others, so learning from the wrong person will not do you any favours.  Even if you are taught by the best, it takes time, effort and lots of practice to perfect the trim and coat care. Can't remember watching your boy in the ring, so I have no idea if presentation let him down, mentioned it as a frequent reason for dogs being down the line.  Yankees are a very competitive breed, with some very good dogs in the ring at the present.

When we are selling a pup to a "new" show home, we often find a pup who we consider will be a good open show prospect, and give  the new handler a lot of fun and wins at that level, but is not going to be a world beater at Ch level. ( we make this clear to the new owner.)  Perhaps that is the case with your boy?  If I have his breeding right, we couldn't make his Grandfather up (Candelles Fortune Hunter)  he had 2CCs and lots of RCCs, it was not because of any fix, or anyone trying to stop him in any way,  he just did not make the grade, and his grand-dam whilst an absolute darling, was not a world beater either.  (However his paternal Grandmother was just gorgeous)  Have you had a good, hard, honest look at him, with someone in the breed who's opinion you value?  Do you know his faults and good points?  It is so easy to love a dog to bits and be blind to where it could be better.  Try doing an unemotional "stocktake", have a look at some of his critiques and see if one or more problems are frequently highlighted, or virtues are praised.  Then decide if it is worth the emotional roller coaster of the Ch show scene with him, or you treat him as a learnig curve at Open shows, and enjoy and love him for himself. 
bye
Gwen

Hi,

am reading the posts with interest and note San,s comment regarding serving a time in the breed before recognition.  Surely that CANT be right, if you,ve got a quality dog then it should be noticed first time out. not placed down behind someone who has been in the breed for 20 odd years.  After all its the DOG on show isnt it, not the owner; or the handler (although sometimes i often wonder).  The more i hear and see about dog showing  the more i am beginning to realise i am involved in a crooks game!

Hi Blackberry Way,  I think you may have picked up this in the wrong way - yes, certianly if you have a high quality dog it should be found straight away.  However, what we are saying here, to the OP, in a kind way I hope, is that perhaps their dog is not quite of that quality.  Being new to the breed you need to "get your eye in" for the breed.  The other factor is that however promising a pup may be, not all live up to the original promise.  So rather than get despondent being put down the line at Ch shows, and wasting a lot of money, why not enjoy the open shows scene where you will pick up places, and wait for Champ shows till a dog the the right quality comes along?  Taking your 2nd point, handling can make a GREAT DEAL of difference to a dog.  Both handling and presentation can radically change of dogs chances.  In this breed  a passable dog can be made into a much more attractive prospect by expert grooming and handling.  A good specimen can be let down by poor presentation and inexpert handling.  Someone who knows what they are doing can take the weaker dog, look at its good points and failings, and trim to exentuate the former whilst minimising the latter.  A good handler can give the same dog that little extra "lift" in the ring to make it stand out to the judge.  On the other hand, a novice or less talented exhibitor can seriously impede a good dogs chances, by messy trimming, poor coat presentation, and being undable to get the dog to move and stack to show off its true potential.  From personal experience I can verify this asI can train a pup to the best of my ability, then hand it over to my partner who will move it, making it look like a  totally different dog!  And needless to say, his grooming capabilities are infinitely better than mine too!  Hope that clarifies the situation.
bye
Gwen

hi gwen,
all your points raised make sense to me but how can a breeder (friend of mine) predict what is going to win certain classes as they all walk into the ring, and believe me each and every time this person makes the predicition they are always right.   Surely Gwen you will agree with me that  this tells me its all predetermined before we even start.   Dog Showing always sounded glamorous to me but sadly in the past six months i am seeing a different side to how i imagined it to be.  In fact with my own puppy another breeder (not mentioning any names cos could cause trouble i guess) pulled me aside and said you wont get placed first even though your puppy is lovely cos you ARENT a face),  I was bloody furious and at that point thought.... this is a mugs game and not for me.  In other words my puppy is good quality but MY face isnt well known .What an insult Gwen!

Exactly the problem I have - not so much an apprenticeship as waiting to become a FACE!! My boy is good enough to be a champion, he has a CC, a ShCM, and 2 Firsts at Crufts and 2 Ch show judges have put 'should be a Ch' in their write ups, and numerous other Ch and open show judges have told me and his breeder so, but none of them are willing to put him up over the big names in my breed. :-(

I think we all accept that not all  judges are as knowledgable or as honest as one could hope for, but this is not to say that ALL jusdges are like that, or what would be the point of showing at all?  Remember that the faces were once "nobodies" too!  However, they bothered to watch, learn, understand what judges were looking for, and to breed dogs who meet the standard, and are presented to the best they can be.  they usually only take dogs of the highest calibre inot the ring too.  A lot of people whinge about being constantly beaten by faces, they dont bother to look and see the faces are handling better dogs.  Conversley, when you are a face it is desperatley frustrating to see unworthy dogs winning CCs because of some "ticket swap" going on.  Yes it does happen we all suspect, but it is not happening all the time!  I started out in Pugs (a second breed) a while back, and have been consistenlty  well placed since.  I know none of the judges, they don't know me, but they like my dogs. 

LucyD, I think it sounds like you have had a lot of success with your Cavs, you just can't expect it all to come at once.  I know how frustrating it is sitting on a single ticket (believe me, worse sitting on 2!) but hopefully the rest will come, you have to remember that however much the judges may like your dog, they can also like another just a bit better on the day!  Does not have to be anything to do with you being a face or not, simply which dog they prefer at the time.
bye
Gwen

I know Gwen, and I'm not saying I deserve to have a champion sitting on my sofa, I just think he deserves to be one! But there has only been 1 male champion made up this year, so I'm sure I'm not the only frustrated Cav owner out there!! :-) And as you say, he's certainly done me proud, I'm not disappointed in him at all! :-) I agree that most faces have become faces by breeding consistently outstanding dogs, but sometimes you do think something a bit odd might be going on!

Trouble is there are three dogs the judges are putting up over IMHO equally nice if not better dogs, they like to play safe & put up a dog that is ready a champion

Exactly - my friend reckons I should drop him down to Mid Limit or I end up facing all 3 of those dogs in Open, instead of just one in the Challenge if I won Mid Limit. But I can't decide - we never did very much in Mid Limit, I never go in Limit as there's usually 25 dogs in there, and we have got several 2nds and 3rds in Open this year. Why couldn't I have fallen in love with a numerically smaller breed??

LOL thats what I think too ;) I went from showing beardies when the classes were huge not the 100 or so now seen at shows back to obedience & then came back to breed in one of the most popular breeds

Maybe we should go for one of the breeds that rarely gets more than three a class ;) like someone who now shows a terrier breed, they bred a litter & were boasting that they had got BPIB at a Ch show Yep he beat his brother ! there were no other puppies(or juniors as it happens) & so hardly surprising !

I think it is down to the judges when my bitch won she beat not just the 6 or seven champions in the open class(including the breed CC record holder bitch)but also the CC record holder(at that time) in dogs as well Not just once but three times & we then retired from Ch Shows(except Crufts) We won under a first time breed specialist, one of the most established breeders & a top all rounder. Non of them had any interest in our bitches breeding & I was totally g*b smacked to not just win the CC but also BOB & get short listed in the group each time. She wasn't flashy & had her faults, but her movement & construction was first class. Now she wouldn't stand a chance as the judges expect(& find)flashy untypical movement(the kick up the american commentator at Crufts loves so much which is totally incorrect for a beardie)& excessive flashily marked coat.

I wonder how many of the top dogs fall within the idea weight for Cavaliers ? not one I suspect & then the movement ! I am appalled toeing in & backends all over the place ! Lovely coats tho' ;)

I think that this sort of thing comes about because of how our show system in the UK works.  I am not saying I like the USA or FCI system, which makes up lots more champions, but I do understand how frustrating it is to be consistently beaten to CCs by dogs who already have the Title.  If we did have a champions only class, then you get to gain your title wihtout ever meeting a champion in comopetition, it is  easy to see the merits in both systems.  Will keep my fingers crossed you get the next 2 tickets Lucy - good luck

bye
Gwen

Moonmaiden i totally agree, Breed judges particularly run scared of putting up anything new (particularly with a new handler too)  as its seen as controversial.  I much prefer independent judges who dont know me, dont care what i,m wearing (whether its jeans or a bow tie) BUT are interested in the quality at the other end of my lead .  My puppy has done well at Open shows, 3rd BPIS, Puppy group 1, BAVNSC blah blah cos hes looked at independently by judges who have nothing to prove.  I know i might sound controversial here but its truly how i see things.

There's a lovely young dog who has won a couple of limit classes but not a sniff of even the Res CC for political reasons !can't say why on here but it is known amougst us lesser mortals in the breed

Moonmaiden no need to tell me , i see it when i do champ shows most of the time and its the politics of the whole business that i find quite VILE, i always thought dog showing was such a glamorous life style lol. 

I agree MM, if my Yankee was as good as my Cav I bet he'd be made up (or maybe not with Dougie out there!! :-D ). I have to admit he isn't within the weight limit, but only because he gets properly exercised and is a little bundle of pure muscle and bone. If you know who I am (you probably do if you're in Cavs) feel free to come at look at him - he isn't big, but is heavy to pick up. My ticket I got off a very well known and respected judge who has judged Crufts and been in the breed for a very long time. Well done on getting your tickets and BOBs like that, it's great to beat the winning dogs. I've beaten the top scoring dog once this year, his owner did NOT look happy! And I've beaten another of the 'big three' twice, but the third one I only beat when he was a young puppy! Most all rounders don't go for my boy as he's so typy he's almost too much, and the breed specialists don't dare put him over the big Chs. Ah well, I have the CC on my wall and will treasure it forever! :-)

My poor JD looks like a puppy compared to the rest of the dogs being shown & he's 5  & weighs 15 lb, in the words of the Aussie vet that saw him when he had his bum prob, "Strewth, he's a wiry little s*d, never met a cavalier with second thighs like his" I had one judge ask me why his back legs were swollen(at a Ch Sh too !) He is the mouse hunter(successful) & I just thank goodness he can't catch the birds, gets close tho'

LOL saw your boy get fourth to the big three I think & the look on the face of one was classic, the mask dropped for a second & the disgusted scowl was there & then gone re[;aced by a smile ! It was there again last weekend. LOL oh to be so serious about dog shows ;) but I suppose the more CC's the more studs/puppy sales !

My Beardie girl had two BIS at biggish Open shows One when she was 12 & the other three weeks after being spayed

\\i think the apprenticeship as in my case may be the time it takes to breed yourself a good one, or to recognise how to get yourself a good one from a top flight breeder, who will often ahve a waiting list of established exhibitoprs waiting on a pup so the neby may not get first dibs.

Santaviga, If you are doing any open shows in the south east let me know and I'll enter my boy - I bet you £5 mine will come last!! Poor chap, he just hasn't got the coat to show, pity as he has a nice head and moves extremely well. I know how that first CC feels though, My Cav got one 2 years ago - alas, no more since though. He's got a ShCM and 2 Firsts at Crufts though so I'm not complaining! :-)

Dawn, I've found Yankee people quite reserved actually, but perhaps they're just embarrassed to be seen with me and my coatless wonder! Cav people seem much more friendly, though I have been told they sometimes talk behind your back! :-)

Its just as well we have other breeds we do well in isnt it? or we would just die of embarassment LOL

Hi Lucy,  Up in the North we are a friendly bunch. (Well, most of us)  IF you are going to Home Counties Club next spring come and have a chat, as we have been invited to have our Rescue stand at the show, can guarantee a warm welcome :)
bye
Gwen

Probably too far to travel with a coatless wonder, but thanks anyway! :-)

Hi Lucy,  Not up North, the Home Counties Show is in Bletchingley, which is somehwere "down South".  Up to now the Rescue stand has attended at the Northern And GB club Champ. shows, but next year will be our first Home Counties.  Certainly worht a trip to a club Ch show jsut to meet up with the exhibitors, see the dogs (and of course splash out on some Yankee stuff on sale in aid of Rescue ;) )
bye
Gwen

Well done! 

I have managed a RBIS and RBPIS twice each, but never the ultimate award.  I suppose you are like me and savour each new milestone. :D

Hey, way to go!!! Worth the wait huh and certainly a doggie that will be appearing on the front pages of the Doggie papers! Yankees I know is very hard to do well in...there are usually a couple of Kennels that win everything!!! However, I understand they are a friendly bunch to hang out with! Well done again! All the best, Dawn :D

CONGRATS!!!  I have had 2 RBPIS and 1 BIS (at all breed open shows) but when I got BIS I was in shock so it didnt sink in until later .  ENJOY!!!!! 

Newfie surely there must be quality dogs from other kennels apart from those two lol?

I think if you look at recent CC wins in the breed, you will find find quite a few names, not just 2 kennels, we even had CC wins from outside the UK.  However, when you do have a world class dog currently winning in the breed (current top dog all breeds) surely  it is a sign of judges appreciating a truly great dog rather than bowing to a particular kennel?  Why should they not put him up, simply becasue he is a big winner?
bye
Gwen

Hey Blackberry...I certain there ARE good quality Yankees from other kennels...but like so much in todays world of dogs, it's usually the 'faces' that win everything huh??? LOL :D

However Newfie the "faces" do have the better dogs a majority of the time because they won't handle anything less!

Although they do not always have the best dogs!

Exactly my point! Mind you, the Yankee that IS winning a lot at the moment IS a quality dog and really I can't knock him!!!

And handled well :)  Though it has been proven he is there to be beaten...like any top dog!

Hmm I wouldn't mind owning a doggie that could beat him!!! :D No chance of that though...probably!!

We can all hope for the future!!!

Well my post certainly got us all going didnt it lol I am off to another Breed Open Show with my sammy again this weekend down in Leicester a long drive of 6hrs but I like to support the breed shows. Will let you know how my boy gets on.

Good luck, lets hope he is on a roll after last week
bye
Gwen

Well I am back from my long trip south to Leicestershire after X Factor on Saturday night to show Sunday. My boy was 1st in Junior but did nothing else. I enjoyed our judges judging and told her so at the end and could follow what she was looking for. My daughter was best Junior Handler over all even though my sammy played up dreadfully (he is such a clown) when she went to show his teethto the judge my daughter bent down and my sam went into a play bow, this happened 5 times in total LOL but my daughter didnt get in a panic or anything she is so cool. On the move he spotted me sitting ringside and gave me a big "sammy smile" on the way past as if to say "aint I just fab". My daughter also won loads of prizes on the tombola and even won a suitcase ??? a thoroughly good day with a lovely atmosphere.

Well done, sounds like you  had a good day, if not quite as spectacular as last week :)
bye
Gwen