Our 9 month old pup is currently half way through junior training class. She has attended two previous courses at the same place and I have always been comfortable with the training methods used. The problem is that the class she is in at the moment has a dog in it which has displayed apparently unprovoked aggression towards our pup and other dogs. Last week it bit her on her back, to which our pup responded with a snarl. The trainer advised me to ignore it completely which I did.  I do not want to stop her training but equally do not want her exposed to aggression. Am I worrying too much and should just get on with it or am I right to be concerned?

Hi Stidd,

If you have been previously happy with not only your pup's progress but the general running of the classes and the trainer(s) involved, why not have a discrete word with the trainer about your concerns.  If this other dog is being a nuisance to several dogs or your own dog on a regular basis, it sounds to me as though it may need one-to-one attention and should certainly not be allowed to disrupt the training and worse still affect the confidence of other sociable and vulnerable youngsters.

Hopefully your trainer will see your point - perhaps you could even engage the assistance of other owners who's dogs are similarly targeted.  A word to the wise would be that a polite and tactful initial approach to the trainer is essential.  It may simply be something which he/she has failed to notice is not just an isolated incident and therefore I'm sure you wouldn't want to levy undue criticism on him/her without giving the opportunity to take appropriate steps.

If however you feel your concerns are justified and the trainer is not open to actively resolving the situation, then if it were my puppy being intimidated I'd seek an alternative class.

Best wishes, Teri :)

I totally agree with Teri - (If however you feel your concerns are justified and the trainer is not open to actively resolving the situation, then if it were my puppy being intimidated I'd seek an alternative class.) - Because next time it might just not be a nip on the back! Good luck! :)

i agree with teri.
if the trainer is allowing a "problem" dog in the class then extra steps must be taken to protect the rest of the class.
make sure you keep your distance from this particular dog,as your puppy may pick up on your "tension"
in the meantime make sure he/she has lots of positive socalisation with the more friendly members of the class.

Some trainers do not take kindley to "suggestions" from their class members,so imo,a more "questioning " approach to the problem may be the way to approach the trainer
eg
"i feel quite threatened by Xs dog......what should i do about it?" etc
then if the trainer dosent give you satisfactory responses,you can think about your options.
it may be that the problem dog leaves soon of its own accord.So it would be a shame to leave if you are otherwise happy,BUT do not risk the saftey or "emotional" development of your pup
good luck

Hi stidd

I really sympathise with you because so many training classes have 'problem' dogs in them and they really ruin it for the others.  Of course they might need remedial socialisation and so the training class could be (in an ideal world) good for them, but that has to be handled really carefully and in a way which most training classes just don't have the time to do. 

What is happening is not only bad for your dog and the other non-aggressive dogs in the class, it is also bad for the aggressive dog, because it is able to practise aggressive behaviour, and the more often it displays aggressive behaviour or succeeds in biting another dog, the more likely it is to be aggressive in future.  So, at the moment, being in this training class is actually bad for the aggressive dog too.

I hope your pup wasn't bitten hard and hasn't been affected by it.  If you think she might have been, you could try to arrange for some play times with another dog which is friendly and looks as closely like the aggressive dog as possible.

In the meantime, a lot can be achieved by everyone using leads and maybe even muzzles in a training class, so that could be one way for you to suggest the aggressive dog is treated.  That still puts pressure on everyone in the class, because as you get onto more advanced stuff, you will want your dogs to be off lead more.  And keeping the aggressive dog on a lead might help, but you would also somehow have to prevent all other dogs running up to it.  So the muzzle/lead idea isn't great.

Another way to play it is for you to sound out the others in the class and see if they agree with you, and at the end of the class to talk to the trainer and explain you all don't want this dog in your group. 

Alternatively, you can withdraw from the class and wait until that dog has moved on, and then do the junior class again - hopefully without an aggressive dog in it this time.  Or look for another class in your area.  When I haven't been happy with any dogs in a class, I usually stop going and wait, even if it means losing the money.  I also look for other classes. 

I think trainers take on these aggressive dogs for the money - why turn them down if they can get another course fee out of them?  But if trainers knew how many people stop coming to their classes and are put off by aggression in a class environment, and look for classes elsewhere as a result, then I think they would think twice about accepting aggressive dogs.

My puppy got attacked by the actual trainers dog! She didnt even care, i dont know how many people left after i did, but if they had any sense they would of took their pups elsewhere! It still makes me so angry just thinking about it!

Oh that's horrible Blues mum.  Did the dog do much damage??

In our training class my dog and a dobe took a dislike to one another and when they got anywhere near each other they would pull and a noisy "argument" would start.  The trainer surprised us one day as the dogs were starting at each other she just threw down some training discs.  These are the little light metal discs that clatter as they hit the floor.  She threw them down between the dogs and said 'no'.  They both jumped back in surprise.  This happened about 3 times and now the dogs are much better when they see each other.  Can't say they like each other but they don't go hammer and tongs like before.

I bought these discs myself and have used them on walks when unruly dogs have run up to us when my dog has been on the lead.  Don't know what other people think but they certainly seemed to work for me.

Also is your training class divided by age?  Our classes are divided by age, ability and there are classes for dogs that need a bit more than just obedience training.

The problem with that Chez, is that it's an adversive method.  It is not teaching your dog and the dobe to like each other more, it is just teaching them not to WARN each other of how much they dislike each other.  (If that makes sense.)  They still feel the same way about each other, they are just not TELLING each other this.  So, you might have peace in most classes now, but if your dog should somehow come into contact with this other dog, it's likely they would just immediately bite, no warnings, no growls, no barks - just straight in there.  Because the warnings have been punished.

If a trainer had used training disks and it was MY dog, I'd have given her a mouthful and left the class.  I'd prefer to know that my dog didn't like another dog, because then I could avoid the situation.  Warnings are useful.

Ok I understand what you are saying.  How do you deal with dogs that don't get along? Do you have to avoid contact altogether?  There is no reason for the dogs not to like each other, being only youngsters I saw it that they wre just being a bit lairy but it's difficult to control two large dogs when they are flexing their attitudes.

The best thing to do is to teach a 'watch me' signal to both dogs.  Then click and treat the dog for giving you attention.  The dog can't look at you and also be lairy to another dog, so problem solved.  Work on heelwork until you have the dog's full attention, by clicking and treating for correct heel position.  When you have the dog's full attention, try slowly decreasing the distance between you and the other dog, clicking and treating the dog as soon as it has passed the other dog without showing any aggression.  Any time you are around the other dog and your dog is NOT aggressive, click and treat that. 

He drew blood, which was pouring everywhere, by leaving a cut about half an inch under his eye! It all happened so quick, no warning whatsoever! Could of been alot worse and im so thankful that it wasnt!

onetwothree

I have always rewarded my dog for not being aggressive but it doesn't help when someone else does not have the control I do.  I keep a can of stones handy now and throw it down when I want to discourage someone else's aggressive dog.  My own dog just turns his head, generally the aggressor jumps back in surprise and the other owner comes over to find out what happened. 

The stone can is shaken and thrown to the ground not near the dogs it does do the trick.

I don't think you can choose your dogs friends anymore than you can choose your kids friends and you cant make a dog like another one only tolerate it.

This method has calmed down barking dogs at training classes, I don't know about training disks but I guess it is a similar thing.

echo - totally, if it doesn't scare your dog, then the sky's the limit.  If an obviously aggressive dog came up to mine, I would do anything, including kicking the other dog, chucking food away from me, chucking car keys on the floor.  _Nothing_ is more important to me than _my own_ dog's good temperament being preserved.  The other dog's good temperament is obviously non existent if it has come charging up to do damage anyway, and the only thing to be gained is, at all costs, to prevent your dog from "catching" it too.

But I wouldn't throw disks etc if it might scare _my_ dog.  Or if _my_ dog was the aggressive one and I was trying to solve it.

Might sound a bit selfish, but it's literally a dog-eat-dog world out there!

I often think of aggression as being a contagious disease!

Keep your dogs away from those with it!

My dog's more scared of the vacuum cleaner :D and it's never done anything to her.

I didn't see what I would call a fear reaction from the discs it was more a sudden distraction.  I see where you're coming from though if the disc had frightened them they might associate the fear with the other dog.  I haven't been training with her for a few weeks and this action was at least a  couple or so  months before that.  The two dogs have calmed down anyway as they are a bit older but the last time they were in close proximity from each other my dog took little notice of him or he or her. The other owner and I looked at each in surprise and yes, the dogs got lots of praise :D

It is the problem dogs that need trainignclasses.  As long as the trrainer and owner ensure the other dogs and tehri owners safety(which didn't happen here) then they need to be in class.

We get soem very antisocial dogs come to our trainign clas.  After our trainer has had a chance to see hoe they are some advice is given as to management within the class (keeping out of the busy entracne area etc) then the dog joins in, with appropriate measures.

We have sadly had any number of people so grqateful for being accepted as they felt theyc ouldn't go to class because the8r dog was a problem. 

The dogs all improve with training and desesitising to being around the other dogs.  some will never be sociable, but all learn not to over react and accept the presenece of dogs that are not interfering with them. 

The owners gain in confidence and are able to learn how to manage their dog better even if it can't be 'cured' thereby allowing them to enjoy their dog, and possibley stopping them friom rehoming it.

We get one of the small rescue people come to our classes with their foster dogs so they can be evaluated and rehabilitated before homing, and handled correctly it is a good expereince for everyone.

Many thanks for all your replies, we took her back to the class last night and everything was fine, I think the trainer had a discreet word with the owner because he took the dog to the edge of the class and kept her away from the other dogs.

I absolutely would not want to take my pup to a training class where another dog was aggressive and bit mine.

I guess that the trainer is perhaps thinking that a pup needs to learn to cope with these things happening out in the real world. But I think the majority of us would steer clear of such a dog whilst out walking, so why have to tolerate one in class. As we know what happens and is taught to a pup in the early months of it's life, helps to mould them for life! (Hence the classes in the first place)

The aggressive dog should be given some exercises and training appropriate for it, and socialised when it can react well with other dogs.

Complain away............... You should always protect your own!

Hi,
At our training class there is a rotty (very gorgeous) but dislikes every dog in the room. I think he is very scared as he is fine unless a dog goes in his teritory. What happens at our class is that the 2 helpers that are there sit in front of Rotty when the puppies are off lead having their play so that he cannot lash out at them if they go to his space. Then he is let off seperately as he is so shy to leave his owner. So I think his is more fear biting than aggresion biting. He is getting better and is fine with people it is just the other dogs that are in the room.
maybe you could ask for this dog to be seperated from the class a little until he learns some manners.
Em

Your trainer seems to be handling the situation very well, and hopefully the Rotti will socialise well with these techniques.  Unfortunately poor Stidd's trainer told her to ignore it! I know that there is always a reason behind a dog acting aggressive and we all may feel for that dog too, but in doing so it should not be at the expense of our own. Hopefully Stidd's trainer will take this on board.

Stid what breed is this other dog and what method did the trainer show to the owner to stop it!

I think it is a lurcher/border cross-it is a beautiful dog. That was my concern -the trainer didn t offer any advice just said to ignore it like it had nt happened. Anyway I did have a discreet word last night with the trainer an she asked the owner to keep it at the edge of the class which seemed much better. Things were fine last night , guess we will just have to see how it goes in future weeks and make a decision from there

The alternative to ignoring/pretending it didn't happen is crying, praising (ie good dog, its ok), picking up/cuddling your dog, "running away" by leaving the room - in general making a fuss - which is an almost guaranteed way of training your dog to be afraid of other dogs leading to any number of other problems.

Your trainer seems to have had a word with the owner of the aggressive dog which is the right way to deal with it. Hopefully your trainer is good enough to be watching your dog in classes to see if any issues come up in relation to the incident.

Karen

PS I know that it is hard to not want to cuddle your dog after something like this but unless there is blood spurting out it is best to ignore the situation and check your dog over later when you have both calmed down.

I was crying my friggin eyeballs out! lol Think i was more upset than Blue was!

Yep - we usually take much longer to calm down than the dogs do! :-)

I know why the trainer told the owner to ignore it Stidd. It is a modern day scam used commonly by those making a £££s killing out of pet owners.
What you saw as aggression in the other dog is REWARD behaviour to THAT dog, dogs must be taught what NOT to do as well as what to do otherwise they will simply reward themselves by all kinds of normal behaviour (for the dog) you do not want, such as that other dog likes being aggressive, it is a reward behaviour for it AND, like you are being shown, the more reward it gets and gets away with the more it wants and that dog is not being taught what NOT to do or cannot do.
What happens is that a lot of owners are then told "Your dog needs behavioural treatment or therapy" when it is quite obvious there is nothing wrong with the dog except it has only ever been taught what to do, not what it cannot do.
The 'behaviour therapy' (haha) will cost around £100 for what they call 'an assessment', for that the 'behaviourist' sits down and does a sales presentation (the hapless pet owners thinks she/he they are  sussing out the dog ) after the assessment you are persuaded to part with loads of money over a long period of time and NO guarantee OR the slightest commitment by the 'behaviourist' it will do the slightest good. If you look through this board you will find it fails time after time, it's a scam.
So relating that back to your trainer - they have not shown the owner of the aggressive dog what to do to stop it - by ignoring it the owner has inadvertently let the dog reward itself - aggression or anything else is self reward and strengthens a behaviour, in this case aggression.
Sooner, usually unfortunately later, the owner will be referred to a behaviourist IF they can fork out the money or the dog ends in rescue because they can no longer live with, more often than not people such as your trainer refer them 'to a colleague' who is in another area - and guess what - the 'colleague' does the same, they refer to the same type of people back to people such as the trainer you have for 'behavioural treatment'.
Sadly I have to say my post is a serious post and the owner of the lovely dog with the aggression problem will eventually find themselves with an uncontrollable dog, which cannot safely come off the lead and will end up either forking out endless money with no results, or as so often happens, the dog will end in rescue, such a young dog being ruined from the start by someone who should not be training people and their dogs. Ask the trainer if they belong to either APDT or APBC, my guess is that they do. Below is a typical example.

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=79098

Stidd's dog is doing OK - he's happy with his trainer and has the matter resolved :)  No need to go stirring up dark and dirty methods on the pretence of concern for animal welfare :rolleyes: different name (and gender ) but same old tried, tested and proven to regularly fail approach - It's tiresome.

To Stidd,
I'd point you towards this poster's other "well meaning" threads (under varying identities) but they have a tendency to be deleted or locked - conincidence?  I think not ;)

The way I see it is that often people come to this forum when they have a problem.  People who have sought behaviourists for their dogs and found that the 'treatment' hasn't worked are likely to seek advice elsewhere such as on this forum.  This means that there will be a skew in the number of comments that are negative rather than postive.  Other than the experienced dog owner/breeders who come on here to share their wisdom and those who come on here to avoid the work they should be concentrating on (moi? :D) the rest have stumbled on this site in the hope that someone can give them some good advice and point them in the right direction.  So, unless you can speak to every owner who has ever experienced behaviourists first hand you can't generalise to all. ;)