Hi, can anyone offer any advice please.

We have a gorgeous male GSD who is coming up to 12 weeks. So far he has been excellent with the house training and rarely has an accident when we are there.  The problem we do have is when he's left alone.  My partner has to take our son to nursery so puppy is left alone for 20-30 mins max in the morning and then again a couple of hours later.  He gets taken out to do his business before we prepare to leave, will toilet on command when asked (most of the time) and he does get praised for this, before we leave he has little communication coats on and then out, he has a kong toy - but we've never filled it with snacks and the hole seems too big to hold anything, also has his rawhide bones, chews, rubber ring etc.  By the time my partner gets home 8/10 times he will have pooped and peed (and the poop he tends to eat it).  Have tried the courgette for the poop eating and no such luck - we are going to try the deter tabelts in case they help. 

When we come back he's usually sitting by the door waiting for a belly rub and praise - usually he will do this if there have been no accidents.  If he has done it, he will lie on his bed and not come over until called - he knows he has done wrong.  If he has done it we will show him what he has done and firmly say No (we do this so he can learn as when he does do it in the appropriate place he gets lots and lots of praise)

But why does he do it?  we are with him during the day and gets left for 2 x 20mins intervals.  We know he can hold himself (he lasts all-night until morning)  we are starting to feel he's doing it on purpose - as a jealous act of leaving him.

What can we do?  he's not in a crate as we haven't needed one yet!

Please help as he is a really really lovely dog - but we don't want this tarred by the 1 bad behaviour (also we have a 4 year old son and don't really want him playing with a dog who eats poop)

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

hi, i have a now 19 week old gsd cross and had exactly the same problems when she was younger. I wasnt quite as patient as you though and i bought a crate when she was 10 weeks old, its the best decision i have ever made. apart from the fact it keeps her safe when i am not here she has never (only when she was ill) toileted the crate. as for the kong i have a small one, u can spread peanut butter inside, or natural yoghurt or squeeze cheese etc.. in there, may be a small hole but i can guarentee your pup will get every inch out!

Hello

I also think a crate would be at leat worth a try.  There are dogs, who might even soil their crate, but generally they are clean animals and do not want to dirty their sleeping place.
I think you definately are better off with a crate for a puppy.  Mu puppy is elevne weeks old and I'm so glad that I know her safe in the crate, when I'm upstairs or out to do some shopping or so.

Regards Bagpipe

I have to be honest, I'm very concerned about your post.

Your pup is just 12 weeks old - and has already been punished for messing in the house :(
Worse, he is showing signs of being frightened of your reaction. That may well be why he eats his mess, as he is afraid of you finding it and him together.

Where is the trust building up, the understanding that a puppy is a baby  who has little muscular control?

Would you punish a human baby for messing in his nappy or missing it?

I'm usually more tactful, but it does get to me that so many pup owners seem to expect miracles.

You can do a search on here for plenty of sound advice regarding housetraining :)

Lindsay
x

Thank you for your honest reply - honesty is the best policy.

Yes I do understand he is only 12 weeks old and we do not 'expect miracles' we know there will be accidents.

I think the problem is rooted in seperation anxiety and I was trying to ask for any tips on helping this or why he would be doing this (although reading back my post that hasn't come out very clearly)

We are going to try a crate - as mentioned this is something we haven't tried yet and will hopefully help us

I have taken to heart that you think we have punished him - we haven't raised our hands to him, banished him to another room or shouted or screamed at him - we have just told him No - we do praise highly all the good things especially toilet training - we are just a bit baffled - as we don't know why he started doing this

Would you punish a human baby for messing in his nappy or missing it? - no we wouldn't but we would tell him/her firmly No and praise them when theyv'e hit the jackpot

Again, thank you for your reply - sorry if this e-mail sounds like a narky reply - it's not intended this way (it's just not nice to hear someone thinks your mistrating a puppy - when we aren't).

Dawn

> Would you punish a human baby for messing in his nappy or missing it? - no we wouldn't but we would tell him/her firmly No and praise them when theyv'e hit the jackpot <

You'd tell a baby off for messing a nappy ?????? :rolleyes:

If you do not see your dog messing then telling him off afterwards is pointless he won't know why only that you get angry.

Better to put him out of where the mess is, clean it up & then take him out & praise him if he goes outside. He is only a puppy & when he needs to go to the toilet he will go, it's up to you to make sure he has been before he's left & if he has to go whilst you are out at this age then clean it without comment

>> Would you punish a human baby for messing in his nappy or missing it? - no we wouldn't but we would tell him/her firmly No and praise them when theyv'e hit the jackpot <

You'd tell a baby off for messing a nappy ??????

I think the OP is referring to a child who is being potty trained but still messes in their nappy/training pants.  Not a 12 week old baby!

Sorry I forgot to delete the nappy bit  - No I wouldn't if it was in a nappy - What I meant was if i was potty training (bare bottomed)

>Sorry I forgot to delete the nappy bit  - No I wouldn't if it was in a nappy - What I meant was if i was potty >training (bare bottomed)

JUST as bad as telling a puppy no for messing indoors. Potty training a child and housetraining a pup is much the same thing, and NEITHER should EVER involve being told off in any way whatsoever or you WILL just prolong the process indefinitely................. You praise when they get it right, you say NOTHING when they get it wrong.

LOL Marianne I know nothing about potty training etcbut as  you wrote telling off a very young child/dog for doing something"natural"gets you know where whereas praising what you want eventually gets the result you want

>Yes I do understand he is only 12 weeks old and we do not 'expect miracles' we know there will be accidents.

And there will be many more "accidents" as you call it, to come. Bear in mind he has only been in this world 12 weeks. Such a short amount of time to absorb and learn everything in one go. I think you are being unrealistic and yes, frankly, you do expect miracles. How do you come to the conclusion that he is suffering from seperation anxiety?

One of my dogs is nearly 10 months old and she still has the odd accident if my eye is off the ball and I miss one of her many signals. But I blame myself for it, not her, as I appreciate that she is still a baby and will be for at least another year! I understand and appreciate that we haven't got it quite right yet but we are definitely on the right road. :)

Shepherds are notoriously sensitive breeds, albeit they misguidedly have reputations to the contrary. Just because you haven't raised your hand to him doesn't mean that he doesn't feel punished. Saying "no" in a stern voice to one so young will cause a reaction from him, he will sense your anger and disappointment.

IMHO, totally ignoring a wrongdoing and highly praising when they've got something right is far more effective. In other words, praise what you want and ignore the rest. This is certainly no hard task with such an intelligent breed. They are born to please you, everything in their life, if treated and trained correctly, revolves around you....as their owner/companion.

Definitely think that a crate is a good idea, but to be used constructively. Alas, some people over use them and then the crate becomes a problem in itself. Not suggesting that you would do this ;)

Good luck and please don't think that I am criticising you, just giving an opinion and telling you what has worked for me :)

I think to even call them "accidents" in puppies this young is overkill :)  They are really just events that are going to happen with the best will in the world.  The best advise I can give is concentrate all your efforts during the day whenever you can to make sure you get puppy to the right place at the right time but otherwise when you cannot watch or when you are getting your much deserved good nights sleep :) ensure your puppy is securely in an area when cleaning up is quick, simple and stress free so neither of you feels bad about it. 
A fortuitous posting has just arrived to help you keep a sense of humour on this very subject
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?tid=79242;pid=595562
Link not working I'm afraid :)

Thank you for all your replys and tips/advice. 

Hopefully the crate will work - will be investigating the site for some good positive tips on using/implementing a crate.

I will let you know how we get on

Thank you

Hi sorry

1 more question - ignoring the mess when he's done it - I know this is going to be very very hard (hopefully introducing the crate whilst out on these short journeys will stop the initial problem)  But will this actually work and eventually stop doing this - 'coz trying to logically think about this - won't this be enforcing to him that it is ok to do it?  (Although I can see on the other hand that by ignoring he could think 'oh well I'm not getting a reaction anymore) - I'm thinking on a broader scale of adult dogs & puppies

Thanks,

Dawn

>ignoring the mess when he's done it - I know this is going to be very very hard (hopefully introducing the crate >whilst out on these short journeys will stop the initial problem)  But will this actually work and eventually stop >doing this - 'coz trying to logically think about this - won't this be enforcing to him that it is ok to do it?

No you will only enforce something that the dog gets a REACTION from. :) Therefore by praising when going outside and doing nothing when going indoors you are enforcing going outdoors.  A puppy will not understand that it is wrong to go in the house -if you tell him no for going indoors, he could believe he is being told off for going at ALL, and the result will instead be that he will try to hide away, so will mess under the table, in corners, behind furniture, anywhere where he won't be seen as easily.

And as I have sat here typing, too caught up in the forum to concerate on my dogs <grin> my 6 month old Papillon has just left a puddle right next too my chair. MY fault because I saw him running around and playing, and should have paid attention to him and let him outside as soon as he stopped playing and looked at the door. :rolleyes:

Hi,

Yes, ignoring it will work.  It has worked for all of mine.

If your dog messes in the house, you should blame yourself, not the dog.  It is your fault for not supervising closely enough, your fault for not making sure he was empty enough and so on and so forth.

If you continue to punish your pup for messing inside, like someone else said, he may eat it to get rid of it. 

You say you are praising when he does it in the right place.  In my opinion, this is not enough - you also need to give him a treat.  You need to make a bigger difference between what happens when he goes outside and what happens when he goes inside.  To make a bigger impression on him, give him a treat after he has toileted outside.  (Put a tub by the door for you to grab on your way out.)

So - puppy goes inside - nothing happens.  Puppy goes outside - a treat happens.  Puppy will naturally want to go outside, because he gets treats out there.  When puppy is always always going outside, then you can stop using the treats and just praise.

In addition, as puppies grow older, they naturally want to toilet further and further away from their bed/den.  This is normal - a wolf cub will at first toilet right outside the den, and as it grows older it will move further and further away to toilet.  So you also have this in your favour.

Goldmali has just posted, and I just wanted to say - this is an example of the RIGHT attitude from an owner:

"MY fault because I saw him running around and playing, and should have paid attention to him and let him outside as soon as he stopped playing and looked at the door"

Cheers onetwothree. It's like that saying on how to get a puppy to be house trained with the help of an old newspaper: Roll the newspaper up, and when the pup goes indoors, you hit YOURSELF over the head with it and say "Bad owner, I should have watched my puppy!" :D

Good tip on treating aswell as praising - I never thought of that

I will definately do this

Thanks

It might also be helpful to get hold of a copy of "The Perfect Puppy" by Gwen Bailey - a little outdated in some areas, but very good at getting over the "gist" of all sorts to do with puppies and later, adolescence, and all the fun that that entails :D

Lindsay
x

Just a quick suggestion that this might be the start of separation stress anxiety, your pup may be worried that you may not be coming back!  Punishment is not a cure for this.

Good luck with him.

XX

Thanks for all you messgaes.

I thought i'd post just to let you know how we've been getting on.

We have been using a crate since the weekend for our short absences, and touchwood everything has been ok so far.  No messing or poo eating (thank god).  He seems to settle down straight away and then lays down and plays with his toys or sleeps.

Thanks again,