when say breeding a black masked bordeaux with a brown masked bordeaux what are your chances of brown masked puppies. is the black mask gene more dominant?  cant seem to find any info on net which is understandable, its all so scientific, and not written in an easy to understand way!!!  i understood the bit that explains that if a dog which is red/yellow/fawn etc carries the black mask gene as a black mask is in the same gene pool as brown/self mask. ? ave i got that right??  not sure now. can any one throw any light on this for me please!!!! thanks.x

Hi i dont no if this is going to help you but as far as i no black is the dominat gene, but it will all depend on what colours are in the dogs back ground as to what it is carrying in its gene pool,and allso what the bitch is carrying in her back ground , so if you put two dogs togever carrying the same back ground gene then i think that is what you will get. Hope this is of some help, regards debbie.  

thanx Debbie.
i know what your saying, but unfortunately the background of the bitch is not known. the boy is a pedigree bordeaux with no known black mask in his lines, the bitch is a bordeaux cross bullmastiff with typical bordeaux black mask and coloring. both are red. this mating was purely by accident, the bitch was in her forth week of season and showing no interest what so ever until a brief meeting in the park!!!!!!!! the bitch had no signs of still being in season, no bleeding, no swollen vulva, nothing!!! the only plus in this is the dog with which she did the buisiness!!! he happened to be of great quality and a good match, and VERY quick!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I'd be more concerned that the parents have both got excellent conformation and good temperaments than the mask colour as you're never going to be 100% sure about that till they arrive - you could even get some with no masks. Finding out what colours the preceding generations had can give you some indication.

I don't think black masks are 100% dominant as you can often get a red dilute shar-pei from two red fawn parents with black masks. And even in black nosed pei, the mask can vary from clear to black all the way up to the forehead and ears in the same litter. There are only a certain number of genes that control colour in dogs (though not all breeds carry all genes) so it can't be that different for DDB.

thanx Phoebe, i appreciate what you are saying about temperaments and conformation, but unfortunately this was a chance meeting in the park, and the owners dont no for sure if the bitch is pregnant yet. but thankfully both dogs are very healthy with fantstic temps, and excellent looks!!! And both are old enough to breed, and the bitch hasn't had any previous litters, both are family pets that are pampered pooches!
the bitches owner was just curious to no whether the mask that her bitch has was dominant or not in the case she is pregnant.

Oh well - it's going to a be a Forrest Gump litter... "Laaaaafe is laaake a baaaaax o chocolates - you never know whaaat yur gonna get"

These things happen, but I hope her owner decides to get her spayed after this litter.

yes definately!!! she gonna be booked straight into the vets. Apparently the vet said to bring her in around 23 - 28 days to see if he can feel any puppies. if not she's gonna be done!!!!  thanx phoebe.

Hi Mabs

From descriptions and photos it looks as if Bordeaux are sable with or without mask, in two colour pigments, black or brown.  The standard does mention isabella which might indicate that you also have blue pigment but I'll discount that for now as that would make it more complicated.

Mask is dominant over no-mask so it is possible for two masked parents to produce no-mask.  And black pigment is dominant over brown.  This is the same gene that makes brown pigment in other breeds eg Newfounland, Labrador and liver in Spaniels.  You don't see the pigment all over the body because the Bordeaux is sable and the dark pigment is restricted to overlay (most obvious in puppies) and mask when present.  The nose colour is also consistent with this pigment.

Breeding black x brown pigment has two possibilities.  If the black carries brown (he definitely will if he has a brown parent) the pups will be 50:50 black or brown pigment.

If the black doesn't carry brown then all the puppies will be black pigmented.

If both parents also carry no-mask then you could get self mask at a 25% chance.

I hope this makes some sense, there's no simple way of explaining it. 

Julie

hi julie.
thanks for your explanation it was a lot clearer than what i found browsing on the net. thanks for putting it in simple terms for me.
regards mabs.x

Hi Julie's excellent on genetics, i dont know if you've ever looked at these websites but they're worth a look http://ukbullmastiffs.proboards46.com/index.cgi?action=login

warm regards Susan

You say that the bitch is a cross DDB and BM - do you have a full "pedigree" for her?  Otherwise, you have unknowns in the genetic make-up.

Margot