i took jessica out my 8 week puppy yesterday,we were waiting in the salon for my mum.all the girls there were cooing over her but when i took her from underneath her blanket they all gasped because she has a docked tail(shes a cocker spaniel)they said it was illegal now and asked why.i felt i couldnt defend my breeder because i know nothing about it.can anyone help pls?

It's perfectly legal for vets to dock puppies' tails. However it's illegal for anyone else to do so.

I don't know much about it either but just to put you mind at rest, it isn't illegal (yet) to dock tails in England as long as it is done by a vet, also one of the main reasons for docking tails is because of the damage that can happen to a working dog's tail. Some people are all for it, some are all against, some just sit on the fence.

I believe that if someone was after a breed that is traditionally docked, but they wanted a pup with a tail, some breeders will leave a pup with a tail on, but because any docking must be done in less than 3 days of the puppies life, the prospective buyer would need to put a deposit (sometimes full payment) down for that pup, as if they changed their minds the breeder would be left with a pup that possibly isn't wanted by anyone else as it has a tail.

My dog's tail is docked. I have met another of her breed on walks who has a full tail and it was bleeding.  The owner told me that it invariably bleeds.  I was quite interested to see how thin the tail was towards the end and am not surprised it gets damaged.  Some people think that only dogs actually used for working should have their tails docked but I would argue that even if the dog is a pet they still exhibit the same behavioural traits as their working peers.  My dog is a GSP and on her walks she dives in and out of undergrowth flushing out birds and rabbits such as those who actually work and all the time her tail wags furiously.  I have no doubt that she is as prone to damaging her tail as actual working dogs.

I would certainly dispute that my friends show style springer exhibits any similar characteristics to my working springer AND he has a mere stump of a tail!  The lazy git has never been under a hedgerow in his life and always sticks to the pathways where he trots happily!  Every ounce of working trait has been bred out of his strain.  :-)

(Pro-docking here after mine had his tail amputated due to damage).

lol - true that GSPs lines do include both working and show. :D

Hi,

Don't worry, your cocker will most probably have been docked by the breeders vet (perfectly legal) gundogs can still be docked due to them needing a short tail to work with, even so most docked tails are usually just a quater docked nowadays, so a dog can still wag it's tail, but is not long enough to get caught in bush etc.  I actually think that cockers, especially working cockers look very strange with a full tail!

Hi Cat

I think it's really important that we fight for the right to keep docking in this country.  Things have stabilised a bit now.  The situation is that a vet can dock a litter of puppies, but only a vet.  And only if the litter is supposed to be used as working dogs.  This law was brought into effect in 1993, before which the breeder was allowed to dock their own puppies. 

The problem is that docking happens at 2 days old, when the pups' nervous systems are not fully developed.  It is believed by people for docking that this means they cannot feel pain.  So, the problem with the law regarding only docking them if they're working dogs is that at 2 days old, no one really knows whether they will end up as working dogs or pets, and many dogs from working litters go to pet homes. 

So the law regarding only docking working dogs is a bit ineffective and what REALLY happens is that, if you want a litter of puppies docked, you just look for a vet who docks and get them docked.  And the vet (and you) will claim that they are intended to be working dogs.  And no one asks questions.

Having said that, many vets these days are refusing to dock puppies' tails, because they don't want to be harrassed by courts and the media for being found out to be doing so.  (Which has happened a bit in the past but is happening less so now because the court cases failed, as obviously it is still legal.)  So, despite the fact that it is legal, it is being driven underground a bit. 

There is an organisation called the Council of Docked Breeds (CDB), who support docking and the right for breeders in the UK to continue docking.  They have a lot of information on their website about why docking should be allowed to continue.

So if you want to be able to defend yourself from comments like that in future, I suggest you have a look at their website:  www.cdb.org

Dont Know alot about it ,Apart form I dont like to see a docked Tail. I saw a Video of Pups being docked it sounded like it Hurt.

Don't know much about it either - if they are sure the nervous system isn't developed, how come this video Hooch mentions sounds like the puppies were being hurt? I do think Cockers and Yankees etc look weird with tails though, but perhaps we'd get used to it. I realise working people argue their dogs damage their tails if they are undocked, but how come labradors don't? But I have no really strong feelings - I do intend to have dewclaws removed if I breed, so it's probably not much different? Sorry for waffling! :-)

I am prewtty certain that when I cut the nails on puppies a few days old that I am not hurting them, but they sure protest loudly :D

Lucy,

The reason that working Spaniels have their tails docked and Labradors don't is that historically, they do different jobs. The Spaniels are for finding/flushing out the game, going into all sorts of cover (normally brambles in my experience!)where a feathered tail would get caught up, whereas the Lab/ Golden/Flattcoat etc are used mainly to retrieve the game, so they don't (necessarily) have to go into heavy cover, hence the tail. (which is also used as a rudder when going across water.)

I have labs and a docked working cocker so I get the best of both worlds, but I know quite a few people that have had trouble with Spaniels that had their tails left on - they all ended up with docked tails after various accidents.

At the moment while it is legal, I would prefer to see a working Spaniel with a docked tail, but that's only my opinion - I'm sure that there are lots of people who would disagree with me :)

Ali :)

Labs don't get tail damage because they don't tend to get tail damage if left undocked.  It could be because their tails are hairier and better protected, because they have a higher proportion of body fat, or most likely because they don't tend to go quartering through rough cover to the extent that spaniels do. 

I'd be interested to know what that video was, because there's a video available to view on the CDB website I posted above, and the pups don't suffer any pain.  In the vast majority of dockings, the pups are instantly returned to their mother and immediately suckle.  This is not the behaviour of a pup in pain, which would flounder around and not suckle. 

I took 8 puppies to the vet, at 36 hours old.   It took 10 mins to get to the vets, they were in ther 30 mins, by the time it took me to get home from the vets (10 mins) the mumbling had stopped - and were happily snuggling into mum, fighting for the favourite teat!  The mumbing was no more than the protesting they would do when one pushed another off a teats.

Margot

hurts?  human babies cry when they are vaccinated but we still do it.  You will always find people who want to sensationalise what they perceive to be negative activities.

Labradors tails are very thick compared to other breeds

Newborn puppies squeal like mad when you just pick them up!

My cocker has a tail and and it's a big part of her personality. She's kept as a pet so we don't have the worries that owners of working cockers have. I can't really understand why anyone would prefer a dog with a docked tail. Her constant wagging certainly makes her a typical 'merry cocker' and we wouldn't wish her any other way. Quite simply, she's a delight!!

Hi i have 5 cockers 3 with tails and 2 with out, i have no preference as to which i like the best, as i lov all my dogs with or with out there tails. i have bread cockers for 10 -11 years now and i dont dock as i dont see a need for it, but each to there own. But this debate has been going on for years now and really its up to the breader of a litter of puppys as to weather they are docked or not, and as long as vets undertake to do it properly i will not have a problem with puppys being docked . so may be iam sitting on the fence lol. regards debbie. 

Wierd isn't it, no one has ever really protested about the docking of lambs tails, or their castration - by the farmer  

Or dehorning of cows?  Or taking the flight feathers out of birds......

thanks everyone,i do know this much -the breeder put an elastic band round her tail to stop the flow of blood then it doesnt grow or something.....................

They put an orthodontic band on the tail that stops the blood and then the tail drops off at the point of the band.  I think this might still come under 'docking a tail' though and not allowed (illegal) to be carried out by breeders

it was the first time this year that the litter i had spainsh water dog had they tails docked at 3 days old with no problems carried bye my vet,
the breed i breed before this are fcr which dont have their tails dock,but one for my bitch when she was whelp slit her tail open it wouldnt heel then it got a secoarlay infection where the skin wouldnt heel had to treat it for 9 week while she was look after her pup,clean and badgeing up 3 times aday,she was so good looking after the pup and let me do what had to be done but you could see she was in pain,once the pup had gone to their new house the tail was still not heeling so the vet had to take 3 inches off she was so happy once it was done and she was 6 years old,

i was every worried about the spainsh water dog having their tail docks,i spoke to the docking breed coucil before and came a member,spoke to my vet that dose the docking to reshore me that he done a lot with out any problem and the pup would be ok,
which they were,

Yes, Chez is right - banding is a method of docking, just like any other.  And again only a vet can carry it out.  So I hope a vet did it and not your breeder...

Yes, banding is one of the methods of docking, and can only legally be carried out by a vet.

Bunty the reason I prefer a docked tail is that I have both witnessed docking (an easy procedure) and amputation of a tail (certainly not easy) and I know which one I would prefer my dog to endure!

<I can't really understand why anyone would prefer a dog with a docked tail>

For some breeds a docked tail carries the same argument as for removing dewclaws but no one seems against that.  As I mentioned before a pet GSP we sometimes meet often splits his tail.  Apparently his tail even splits just wagging it against doors and walls.  My dog has a docked tail, it is the waggiest tail I have ever seen :D and she is a delight to me too ;)

Dill and Chez, it depends on who you talk to, really!  Personally I don't like birds having their feathers clipped (and yes, I've done it myself before and I still don't like it), or the castration of lambs - I do see the need for the tails to be docked though, flystrike is not a pretty thing on a lamb.  But I don't approve of the method of the elastic band, especially for castration - I've seen it done to lambs and it hurts them a lot.  At the same time, I also understand that the cost of anaesthetic is a problem for farmers.

As for dewclaws - I'm of the opinion that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  If the claws aren't causing a problem - and I know many, many dogs with dewclaws that don't have problems - then I think they should be left as they are.  I do know of 2 dogs that have had problems - a large male boxer X rhodesian is always ripping his dews (but his owners won't have them taken off for some reason), and my own spaniel X years ago ripped hers and had them aputated.  But I still don't agree with taking them off "just in case" or for cosmetic reasons, same as with docking.

But there's dewclaws & dewclaws!! Most people only think of the small front dewclaws. My breed (under middle size) has huge double rear dewclaws (like a Pyrenean ) They are so large, they do actually affect movement, hind movement looks like they've done 20 days in the saddle .
My first dog did not have his dewclaws removed & managed to hang himself upside down by his on a fence. That's over 25 years ago, but I can still hear his shrieks of pain until I managed to rescue him. Every dog I've had that has still had the dewclaws has managed to rip them off/get infections etc. Having them removed isn't pleasant, but as it saves unnecessary pain later on I will continue to have mine removed.

Hi Nikita,

IMO putting a band around a tail that is no more than soft cartilage at 2 days old is a lot different to putting a band around a lamb's dangly bits - my husband and son agree :D

As I understand it, it can be very traumatic for a dog to have a damaged tail amputated once it has reached adulthood. 

My vets say they don't understand why any breeder doesn't remove dewclaws because they see so many dewclaw injuries. I've had two very nasty rips in dogs I didn't breed myself, that went right up the leg. In both cases a GA was required and the rips up the leg took ages to heal. The pups squeak when the dewclaws are removed but only as long as they are being held firmly for it to be done. As soon as they are back in the whelping box they are quiet.

Its Legal to get tails docked. Dobermanns, Rottweilers, boxers etc get their tails docked.

Theres people out there that thinks its animal cruelity but it dont see whats wrong with it.

Vets say that the nervs hasnt developed property yet to feel anything so it'll be like getting their nails cut.

Personaly, i would prefare dogs such as boxers with their tails docked.

Although its leagal for vets to dock it is against RCVS policy and so finding one willing to dock can be difficult. Most will only dock working litters now. Personally i really don't see the point in docking breeds that no longer have a job to do, like rotties for example.

There are very few undocked, in customarily docked breeds, dogs in the show ring!  In the grooming parlour, my experienced of tailed dogs is that they are always pet bred puppies.  I have yet to see an undocked quality dog, although, of course, there are some breeders of quality pups who are now chosing to leave on tails.
It's not difficult for members of the Council for Docked Breeds to find Vets who are happy to dock.

There are a couple of undocked Yankee champions, so they must be good quality!! I see what you mean about the different thickness of spaniel and retriever tails, hadn't thought of that. And as someone else said, I see that even if it does hurt a bit, it might be considered better than the pain of a broken tail later in life. Glad I'm unlikely to breed Yankees and have to make this decision, I must say!! :-)

There are a couple of undocked Yankee champions, so they must be good quality!!
Of course.  Which is why I said

there are some breeders of quality pups who are now chosing to leave on tails.

But the vast majority in all breeds are still docked. And most of the tailed dogs are pet bred. I chose my words very carefully. :)

Lucy, both of the tailed Sh Ch American Cockers, were bred in Scandanavia, where docking has been illegal for several years.

Dawn R. (pro docking)

Nikita,

I don't have any problem with docking dogs tails, there are many cases where it is much better than amputating later and as its done so young the pups don't really seem to be worried by it, I do have a problem understanding why its ok for farmers to do Lambs tails, dangly bits etc. at a later age but only a vet can dock a puppies tail, seems like a double standard to me ;) 

Lambs are castrated and docked within hours of birth.

My apologies JG, I was led to believe it could be done later

I still believe that banding pups tails is better than cutting tho.  I've seen too many dogs recently(since breeders have been unable to do it) done by vets where not enough skin/flesh has been left to cover the bone and the end of the tail is hairless :(   I never saw this before it was made illegal, and there have always been plenty of docked dogs around here.

Yes, but they are therefore both good quality to have become UK Champions. One of the other posters said she hadn't seen good quality undocked dogs. :-)

Quite, so we should also tell them about the fact that BOTH CC winners at this years Crufts in American Cockers, were also undocked, but also Scandanavian again. :)

Dawn R.

Though I did notice that in the pictures the handlers tend to hold the tails so as to hide as much of them as possible - or is that just coincidence! :-D

on the subject of docking of the tails and removing the drewclaws. take a rottie for example, if not docked and drewclawed removed, they cant be shown and if they are pets and they drewclays are not removed they can really cut you and its not the dogs fault and every couple of month they ve got to go to the vets to have them filed down because they be in to much pain to have them remove and no vet would  do it after they are afew days old and rotties look like whippets with a tail it starts thick  and as it gets to the end of the tail it goes very thin, and hangs down, we would nt buy one with a tail

All the Rotts with tails I ahve seen have had thick labrador like tails, except one who has a deformed tail that looks like a shepherds crook, with the handle at the rump curled over her back and the rest of the tail hangs stiffly straight down one flank all 18 inches or more of it.

The owners of the ones with Labrador type thick otter tails say that they get a much more positive attitude from the general public towards the dogs as they don't seem to realise they are Rottweilers.

I'm for docking 100%,as long as it is done by a vet.If someone had some litters of ROTHIES,DOBERS and Boxers with the tails intact those pups would be extreamly hard to sell.In fact if docking was baned these would become very rare in a few generations.

I don't think a show Cocker Spaniel would get anywhere in GB with a long tail? I prefer them docked as they look unbalanced .On the other hand the debate on docking for working Spaniels  never made any sense to me though,as having owned and shown Setters,well they never damaged their tails while out working in the fields in the roughest conditions,only when thumping them against furniture in the house!

There are Yankee champions who are undocked, so there may be English Cocker champs too, I don't follow the breed that closely. But I suspect it will be very hard to win with an undocked dog for a long time to come. I agree that they look funny with tails, but I suppose we'd get used to it - after all, the breeds with cropped ears probably went through something like that when ear cropping was made illegal? :-)

There aren't any undocked Show Champions in Cockers although a small number of undocked dogs are shown & several have qualified for Crufts in recent years (but it's fair to say none yet have been of the quality needed to get right to the top).

Jane

Jane is that because all the top breeders producing the top quality dogs are still docking because judges don't want to give it to a tailed dog?

I'm pro docking (growing up with boxers and now in aussies!) however I am preparing myself to accept that the ban may come into force.

If anyone looks at the docked breeds, the undocked high winning dogs are those importanted or brought over to show, IE they are from the top breeders in other coutries where they cannot dock!!!! :)  Hence why the tailed yankies that have won have not been UK bred....although I'm sures theres a UK bred tailed champ in either welsh or english springers!