Hi, Today i was sitting down watching t.v and i had one of my adults in with me, Kane, hes 3 years old and he dived on the sofa to grab a pillow ( why ? you dont want to know lol) and i went and took it off him and suddeny he locked onto my hand.

I shouted" stop it!" and he wouldnt let go and it was really sore so i had to go to means of using my fists to make him stop and i have never hit any of my dogs before because i believe its animal cruelity.

Anyway when he finaly let go i had to grab hold of his collar and put him out in the backroom, to calm down.
He also tried snapping wildy at me again while i was doing this, whenever i looked it my hand it was pouring with blood, he just went nuts all sudden.

None of my dogs ever tried to bite me since they were pups, and nor so wildy as if trying to "lock" on, he was also growling and barking.

I dont know what to do, i havent been out to him again since but i think hes settled for the night, so i wont disturb him.

Does anyone have any advice or experience in matters like these because if hes turning vicious he could also hurt my other dogs and other people.

He wouldn't have been stealing the cushion for a humping session would he?

Yes, he always attempts to steal the cushions for his enjoyment but ever since i've got him hes been doing that but this time he attacked me very viciously.

I would go straight to the vets to get him physically checked and referred to a behaviourist. Good luck!

That's because you were making moves on his bird :D

I know it's not funny, but I thought that's what he'd been up to with the cushions. He could have been exhibiting a form of male sexual aggression towards you. Check him out with the vet and maybe discuss chemical castration for now to see if it helps... and keep him away from temptation - lock up yer cushions when he's about!

When you see him in th morning, just act like nothing's happened and see how he is with you. Will probably all be forgotten by him. Good luck.

You've had a bit of a shock. I'd agree with Chloe and Phoebe, get him to a vet for  a check up (this will just rule out any medical problem, although bear in mind that some problems that cause a sudden change in behaviour may need a more thorough investigation) and then get referral to a reputable behaviourist. Otherwise this is bound to escalate and it will go from bad to worse. With help, the problem may disappear :)

Lindsay
x

Thyroid problems are fairly well known in Diobes, adn they can cuase behavioural changes including agression.  Ask for a full Thyroid panel.

In the meantime remove the cushions and do not allow this behaviour, it is completely unecessary and, in effect, you are taking away his "bitch".

There is no need to let dogs do this, just distract them with something more appropriate.

Ok thanks everyone for their advice, im going to take him to the vet to see what he thinks, when i got him up this morning he acted as if nothing happened and trotted on inside to get his breakfast and morning walk. Hope it stays like that but for now on ill have to hide the cushions lol.

Thanks again

My Saxon had a 'bonky cushion' in his previous home.
His owner wanted me to take it with me.
I didn't and he has not tried to bonk any of my cushions. I have had a minor issue with his dominance/aggression but, after a little advice, he seems to be settling down again.
I am thinking of trying chemical castration to see if that will help with the problem we've had.

Great Sympathy extended as I just had the same problem viz > Attacked by my own dog!! Mine did it more than once,and no matter what we tried he just kept on doing it.I used to hang on to his jowls and really shake him hard,sometimes for 4 minutes and then after all of that he still kept growling.I had to let go through my own exhaustion in the end.I do not believe in physically punishing dogs even though his breeder told me to "put a good stick on him!!" -- Yes that is the exact words!! In the end I took him back,broke my heart in "2" - I know he was castrated after that time but I also heard that the breeder was afraid to re home him even though they were known to have said "they (the breeders) had sorted out the aggression!"
Losing that dog was one of the hardest things I have ever done. Anyway I would go for castration - I could not being myself to do this but in retrospect I wish that I had now.

im thinking of having castration done but so far today hes been excellent but ill be keeping an eye on him for now on after that.

I just cant help feeling i cant trust that dog, when he came in again in the evening he run up to me to be peted as he has always done and settled down beside me.

His breeder said to me once and these are the exact words" i dont believe in punishing a dog by means of smacking but sometimes they can get out of hand and need a smack sometimes"

Thanks again for all your advice, really helped.

Yes,I know exactly what you are saying as after the biting incidents,I never trusted that dog again even though he acted as if nothing was wrong between us.It was never the same again,the trust was gone,I suppose I felt that the bond had been broken.Anyway I did have the chance to have mine back as I said but I could not risk all the uncertainty of feeling >"will he,or won't he!!" day in and day out.The situation was becoming intolerable,but it still broke my heart.
Years ago I think I would have been mentally tougher and have taken this more in my stride, however whatever age we are - we love them all don't we?  - the good ones and the not so good ones,that is the problem of being an addicted Dog lover! :)

Your right, today whenever he barked out the window at a passerby the way he turned around and looked at me i thought "oh no hes gonna attack me again" but he didnt but i still felt nervous.

I havent been afraid of dogs since i was a 5 year old kid when i was bit by a big stray dog coming home from school and after my dog attacking me yesturday is kinda bringing that fear back alittle :(

But im still a dog lover :D

I would suggest if you have a male Dobermann and are frightened of him, to rehome him ASAP.  They are incredibly sensitive and will pick up on fear very quickly, it could be a very dangerous situation.  I would speak to the breeder or a registered Dobermann rescue society.  My opinion only based on 17yrs owning Dobes.
Dawn.

Hi, I would never give up any of my dogs to any rescue society unless it was clear that they were very vicious but i hope it was just a "one off" thing.

So far after the attack hes just been acting like he did before but if he trys it again im afraid something must be done, not only for my own safety but for others but i hope it doesnt come to that :(

I don't think he's inherently vicious, he was just put in a confrontational position due to several factors. If you can avoid putting both yourself and your dog in that position again, he may never act like that again. Try to think ahead and be confident with him and things will be fine I'm sure. If he was unpredictably aggressive, I think he might have attacked your other dogs or yourself before now.

To be honest, if a dog is vicious, I think it's totally irresponsible to give them up to another home - even a rescue. If you can't trust a dog not to be aggressive, why would you pass the problem on and risk somebody else getting bitten? If all medical/behavioural routes have been exhausted, the owner of the animal should have him/her humanely put to sleep rather than be passed from pillar to post, caused lots of stress and ultimately end up being euthanized. But in my experience most people would rather not take the responsibility and as long as it's not on their conscience they don't give a hoot.

Okay, climbing off my soapbox now. :D

I do hope I've read your post wrong here, but if a dog was threatening me and I shook it by the jowls for up to 4 minutes, I would not be surprised at all if it kept growling - I WOULD be surprised if it didn't try to attack me again!!

DobermanLord,
You mentioned your dog is an adult and intact and thinking about having him castrated.  Behavior is learned, so I think there is a very strong possibility despite having him castrated, he will continue to hump the pillows and be a bit aggressive.  I have always felt, if you have no intention of breeding a dog, male or female, get them fixed at an early age say around 6 months.

Claybuster

Nikita,this is a quick message for you.I am not rising to your obvious need for an online scrap, as I know exactly what the poster is going through only having just previously been there myself.As explained I do not believe in physical violence only good tellings off,by holding the dogs either at the scruff of the neck or by the jowls.There comes a time when time outs,tellings off, and anything else we can try is still not enough-- and this includes methods given by behaviour therapists,as even they can come against a brick wall the same as all of us ordinary dog lovers can - none of us are dog absolute!
I feel very sad for the original poster, as I can feel the despair in her answers,so there is no need for any aggravation to be included in this thread.The poor lady has enough to put up with at the moment.

It wasn't intended as aggravation, nor am I looking for an " online scrap".  You don't approve of what you have perceived as an assumption on my part, so please don't make assumptions about my intentions when I posted.  As I said, I hoped I read it wrong - and clearly I did, but I was unaware of any previous history of training attempts with that particular poster and her dog - as the post reads, it does look alarming, and I am not psychic.  Apologies, I was simply stating concern about what was written on the screen in front of me.  Had there been background written as well i probably wouldn't have.

You dont need a vet nothing about anything you have said suggests anything but normal behaviour under the circumstances and in veiw of what you said about your relationship, and behaviourists are the biggest flop since Icarus (except for private enterprise, that poart was a sucess), apart from that agression is perfectly normal in some dogs, the degree and frequency varies on the situation and previous learning.

>Tohme In the meantime remove the cushions and do not allow this behaviour, it is completely unecessary and, in effect, you are taking away his "bitch".<

Tohme has it smack on, the way you talk you do not distinguish between him and a human, this is NOT a cushion it is his ONLY sexual outlet releasing IMMENSE bilogical drives and chemistry, why on earth people are talking about thyroids when sex hormones are OBVIOUSLY present is naive at best. You really do NEED to look at him as a dog, it is not agression, make no mistake if he bit you hard you would not type here, it is a dogs way of communicating to another.
He cant speak he can give body language which he probaly did immediatly before impact but you didnt if another dog went to interfere it would have got the same. It is NOT a cushion to him it has been his only sexual outlet for yonks anyone can see that, you would not be surprised when something as sophisticated as a human used rubber, leather, chains and a whole load of other things for sexual expression and this is his HE HAS NO OTHER OUTLET and he has learned he can release his functions as a reproductive animal with the cushions.
Sex and agression often go hand in hand with many species try and rspect his species, he cannot talk, he cannot think, he has no logic, no reasoning power no sexual inhibitions so what on earth are people talking about vets, behaviourists and thyroids for, what would your partenr or you do if someone walked in the bedroom and tried to take the bed away? RESPECT HIS NEEDS.
If you cannot appreciate and perceive him as a dog then expect nothing better. If you want to do something, get canine educated.
BIG Tantrum now.

i forgot, good post Tohme

I also forgot (the most important thing really) it is NOT his aggression to you, it was YOUR aggression to him he responded to, and dont forget the origins of this breed either, in fact dont forget he is a dog acting naturaly under those set of circumstances, and, as someone else said on top of all his learning, he was in intense reward behaviour and you issued a severe punishment BUT you have never taught him 'this is not what you can do', so he had no way of understanding why you attacked him, which TO HIM is exactly what you did and again TO HIM for no reason he would be able understand.

Tantrum, im not letting him hump my cushions, it is non-hygenic. I never showed agression towards him, it wasnt the first time he went for the cushions, i just simply went up to him and said "no" and took the cushion from his grasp, thats when he jumped on me.

I never smacked him for taking the cushion, i smacked him because he had my HAND in his JAWS chewing it like it was a piece of meat, now if you dont happen to know what it feels like, IT HURTS and he wouldnt let go, so i give him a good smack, and thats when he let go, and he deserved it.

You must have read the post wrong or i have misunderstood your reply because im getting the impress that your saying that i should have let him hump the cushions and that i smacked him for it ?

I believe you have to show a dog whos the boss, whos in charge and not to let him think hes the one runing the show, its completey absurb to let a dog think hes the dominant one in the pack .

you probably read it right but I dont think you understand the punishment, it dont mean smacking, though it might, taking his cushion from him is punishment-he dont know its a cushion all he knows is it is his, if you jerk a dog on a lead it is punishment, if you say NO it is punishment-punishment means something is removed, I think you are misinterpreting punishment.
I got the impression he humped the cushion at time and I think so did tohme, i
if you take something from anyone it is a punsihemnt - if your dog is running into the road and you grab him and stop him it is punishment- if  you want your dog to sit for a treat and hold the treat up untill he sits that is a negative  punishment-most people use punshments to teach, I bet you were taught to hold a treat to recal him, that is a negative punishment. I dont think you understand what she meant by it.

How can giving a treat be punishment? A treat is a reward - quite the opposite!

"negative punishment" - now that sounds like something that the Government will use :D :D :D

I'll watch for it in soundbytes :)

Margot

> I believe you have to show a dog whos the boss, whos in charge and not to let him think hes the one runing the show, its completey absurb to let a dog think hes the dominant one in the pack . <

How do you show your dog you are the boss ? Most Alpha dog & bitches do very little do impose their "dominance"on a on a wild pack.. Studies of real wolf & wild dog packs(as opposed to captive packs in zoos/safari parks)have proved this. All the eating first & going through dogs first by Alphas etc have been blown out of the window. The opposite in fact usually happens

Dogs don't think humans are other dogs either if you watch two dogs greeting each other & they a dog greet a human you will see this

Your dog does need to be taught the boundaries you wish it to live within & that means actively training your dog not simply telling it off &/or correctly it whem it over steps the boundary

If you read what snomy said about both the sit and recal teaching methods they did not say what you did, what the described for the sit and recal are negative punishment methods, you are another allways useuing words such as reward without knowing what they mean, not suprising the dogs get mixed up.
You can work it out for yourself anyway just go through some posts on this board about people who cannot get a recall, almost all of them are offering treats the result is almost invariably that the dog will not come for the treat, it will not come for the treat because the simple reason is that coming for the treat is a punishment to it, so it rewards itself by not coming.

the above post was for jeanigenie

'Punishment' - a penalty imposed to ensure the application and enforcement of a law; severe handling; belabouring; mauling; pain; damage.

'Reward' - a return or recompense for service or merit;  repay for evil-doing.

'Treat' - to entertain, esp with food and drink by way of kindness or compliment.

Yes, I think it's safe to say I (and others who have English as their first language) understand the words perfectly. ;)

No, what you have written is some ordinary connotations of the two words and even then they denote nothing much.
Those are NOT the meanings used in dog training or any other animal training, very far from it, when you write on here you are writing advice on training an animal and if you use words such as reward and punishment you should not mislead whoever it is you are writing to, their dogs well being is at stake.

Those are the meanings in English. If you speak some other language, you'll have to define it.
:)

No I dont speak another language and the meanings in english are NOT whats taught at any dog training class OR if you hire a behaviourist in, when they use the words they are NOT useing them in ordinary english at all and neither should you use them if you give someone advice you mislead them and their dog is recipient of the consrquences, which if you dont get it right are a poor quality of life.

Tantrum - are you perchance a politician?   I have never, ever, heard anyone but a politician use words in such a contracdictory manner!

Or are you a lawyer?   Someone else who tries to twist words???

Margot

You will find that most of the posters on here are using the words with the same correct meanings I am using them. Its no use saying I am twisting words, I am twisting nothing, you need to understand the words as meant in dog training.

Well excuse me, I've only been around dogs and training for more than 50 years - and no, I'm not a Trainer, but I do know how to use the english language, and you are certainly not clarifying any point on training.

Margot

Let me clarify it this way. The words reward and punishment for the English language are nothing to do with the words 'reward and punishment' in dog training, the words are in common use in dog training but they are nothing to do with the same words as used in ordinary english.
It has already been clarified by someone else, if you hold a treat up and get the dog to sit and give it the treat when or if it sits that method is a negative punishment, thats 3 times this has been explaind.

Strange, the words "reward" crop up quite consistently in any dog training classes I have attended.   Punishment does not crop up so frequently, as the general concensus of opinion is that "reward" based training is far more positive and reinforcing than punishment.

This wouldnt be weasel words for the dreaded e-collars would it?

Margot

....mmmm ....the message is coming through now ......blasted ecollars :(

Based on the definitions you have given, the way you use them and now saying thats what they teach you,they cannot be teaching you  correctly in the context of the use of the words and that must mean the methods are wrong. 'Reward based' yes if you are training a dog it must bea method which offers 'the greatest reward to the dog' - NOT something the human experiences as the reward, e.g. the posters dog rewarded itself by taking the cushion, scattering it, humping it, maybe tearing it, the owner experienced the same event as a punishment, so, she tried to stop the dog by punishing it = removal of the cushion, the dog then removed her comfort and replaced it with pain and fear, those are correct uses,the dog taking the cushion was reward based behiour, the owner attempting to recover it was reward based behaviour, the dog biting her arm was reward based behaviour.

What does this mean below?

>"This wouldnt be weasel words for the dreaded e-collars would it"<

Positive reward = adding something pleasant (the food reward)
Negative reward = removing something unpleasant (taking the pressure off a tight lead)
Positive punishment = adding somethin unpleasant (the dreaded e collar)
Negative punishment = removing something pleasant (withdrawing a toy)

Giving a dog a food treat if it sits is NOT negative punishment, it is positive reward.......

Sounds as though someone is a little confused here! ;)
I don't know about English but it sounds like double Dutch to me.

Ah, now I know who you are.

There is no such thing as negative reward digger or positive reward.

Wel if it sounds like double dutch Val then how come you go to classes and think you understand the same thing? the terms and a few examples I have given are correct.

<<if you hold a treat up and get the dog to sit and give it the treat when or if it sits that method is a negative punishment>>

If I hold up a treat, and the dog sits, and the treat is given to the dog, that is REWARD.

If I get up, go and bring myself another glass of wine to drink whilst trying to decipher the logistics of this thread, that is REWARD

If tomorrow morning I have a headache because I have rewarded myself with too many glasses, is that NEGATIVE REWARD ?

:D

Margot

>If I hold up a treat, and the dog sits, and the treat is given to the dog, that is REWARD. <

The whole process you have described is a negative punishment, you have given 3 actions which make the whole.

I DEFINITELY need another glass of red......I'm sorry - but what you are saying is just absolute testicles!

Margot