My 18mth old Rottie, we've had him 31/2months, has started to growl at my son when he tells him to go outside into the garden with the other dogs. To do his toilet etc. He shows no other aggression and is very well behaved.
This morning he jumped at my son but the bullmastiff got between them.
My son, he's 16, still makes Saxon go out.
Tonight I told Sax to go out and he growled at me I told him in no uncertain terms he would damn well do as I said.
Am I right to think it is his hormones, he's entire, his age and that in time with training and persistance he will get better??
I've had 'big' dogs including Rottie's throughout my life but never had this behaviour toward a member of my family.

Saxon didn't come from a bad home when I got him but he was rather spoilt and treated like one of the kids.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Hi D4wn,

I can understand your concern fully but it's a difficult one to cover safely or appropriately over the internet. 

Yes, from an age POV, it is possibly just slightly late onset "Kevin stage" - particularly as you've only had him since his hormones would already have kicked off but he's needed a settling in period etc. for this to surface.   Over indulging and humanising any dog, but particularly a large guarding breed is IMO extreme folly - but does happen all too often  :(  

In all likelihood he hasn't been given the type of structured training towards good manners and acceptable behaviour before coming into your home that he should have had so if this is the only basis for his behaviour you will have to put in a lot of time and effort to instill your own levels of appropriate co-existence a.s.a.p.   If he had been with you from 8 weeks or so and this was a new behaviour I'd put it down to "throwing his weight around" but in the circumstances that's not necessarily the case.

I'll be honest, it's not one I'd want to make a recommendation of in-house action when unseen (even if it were my own breed) and I think you would be best to ask for an appropriately breed experienced outsider to observe him if you know of any respected, long established breeders and trainers of the breed.  Failing that, you may be safer to go on to seeking a consultation with a member of the APBC.

Sorry not to be more helpful :(  Good luck, Teri
 

Hi Teri,

It does seem as if he's 'settled in' now and thinks he can be higher on the ladder than my son, maybe showing his true colours. He tried to tonight with me but I think I worried him a bit. He was going to 'go to the loo'  on my new carpet and I yelled at him before I jumped up and told him to go outside.

I have dealt with this type of behaviour with dogs years ago but I would just like some 'up to date' thoughts on the issue.

My son was just putting the dogs out for their first toilet of the day, before their walk, when Sax growled and jumped at him. I think if Sax had been serious he would have come into contact. He could be trying to throw his weight around. He used to have a 'bonky' cushion at his old home. I stopped all the sexual behaviour so he doesn't jump up and hump everything he sees now. Maybe, I thought, this may be his way of showing his frustration????????????????

Although I don't want to neuter him, as this caused problems between my JRT and Bullmastiff, I would consider it if it would have an affect. My Bullmastiff was neutered at 6mths and then the JRT came 4 weeks later and was then himself neutered 4 months after that. The Bullmastiff is now 4 and the JRT 3yrs old.

I have had quite a lot of experience with Rottie's but not in recent years. Also I have had a lot of experience in rescue. I can't remember the last time I have had any dog behave in this manner.
When Saxon has done this he is put outside to let him know he can't get away with it and also to diffuse the situation. When he is let back in he is the normal loving dog we're used to. He is not 'pushy' or 'insistent' and does not 'demand' attention.

I am just trying to give an accurate description of his character and behaviour both normally and at the time of the two incidents.

Hi again D4wn :)

My own inclination is that Rotts I've known can be quite vocal and grumbly - but much of the noise is them "talking" rather than an actual growl, i.e. "threat" - I'm sure you know the noise I mean :P

My itsy bitsy scrap of a junior bitch (all 18 kilos of her :rolleyes: ) had her first - and almost certainly last :D - grumbly/groany/growly uttering a couple of weeks back when she decided to race me to the front door and I pushed her back!   Can't say it panicked me much and she went all pathetic and smiley when I roared"Ah" :)  I'm sure most of us have had a "teenager" canine and human "mutter" their disapproval a couple of times without there being any harm or danger in it whatsoever.  I think there's simply an age where they try it - hormone driven - whether it be frustration, mischief, the silly season etc - and when it's our own breed we tend to know exactly how to deal with it, certainly when they do it to us personally.

Long winded way of saying I don't know your breed well enough or your dog at all to say with confidence what is best but in my own situation I didn't give it a second thought - had actually forgotten about it until this post :D  But you clearly have more experience than me anyway having been more involved with rescue dogs etc. and just landed unlucky that out of the folks still up you got the sleep deprived insomniac :rolleyes:  Still, nice chatting and I do wish you luck with him.

Regards, Teri :)

Is it only your son he growls at?  If anyone else lets him out for his first wee of the day, do thay have any problems? (Most dogs I know don't have to be told to go out first thing, they NEED to go......)  Has he been vet checked for his hips and elbows?

I think the safest advice would be to make sure all situations where someone has to exert their authority over SAX are made as non confrontational as possible, so that he has to do as yu say but safely.

NILIF (nothing in life is free) methods can work here and generally won't do any harm.  This could involve asking for an easy obedience behaviour before being forthcoming with anything the dog needs or wants.

Also in situations where you need to get the dog to do something it may be an idea for the dog to be wearing a short lead in the house so that after giving a command it can be enforced at a safe distance without laying hands on the dog.

For the jumping up and trying (possibly) to domminate/intimidate a mild aversive such a shot of water in the face from a spray bottle might work. 

This worked well with very pushy adolescent of my own breed that I had back at 8 1/2 months who thought she was perfectly entitled to use me as a chew toy whenever she wanted, any physical attempts at correction were met with increased intensity of the game, she also did try intimidation tactics when told to do something she didn't want to like get off the sofa.  I used the squirt bottle for all such occasions, including make her leave the room when she didn't want.

Of course aggression is pretty low in the order of usual behaviours with my breed, and any displays are usually born of bravado.  I also had the advantage of knowing her genetic history, and both her parents characters very well, and could see where their natural traits had been allowed to get out of hand in the adolescent, and she just needed to learn the rules.

I agree it's not necessarily a good idea to get advice over the net for this :)

I'd suggest first of all getting a vet check just to rule out any physical problems. I remember once on here there was a case of a rottie growling at some family members - it was an interesting case as i was on a trainer's list and got 2 "views" of this, the trainers and the owners! The trainer pushed for the vet and in the end it was discovered the dog had bad hips and, once on meds, was much better and stopped growling.

I've dealt with rotties at a kennels but not owned one  - so don't have much actual breed experience as such - but have always found that with any strong minded dog, you need to get that balance with being kind but sometimes firm, whatever they are doing. It may be that the dog is reacting to "challenging"  body language or "over firm" language, which happens of course, when owners  see the dog first being a bit pushy/manipulative/teenagery: it happens a lot and sometimes when you soften voice and attititude, there can be a marked change in the dog's behaviour. But you still need to know how to be firm without making him aroused :P

My suggestion would be:

vet check first

Next, try attaching a long line and set up specific training situations and use high vlaue  rewards for the dog doing as you ask. Clicker training would work well here, but you need to know how to use the clicker ;) If necessary you can gently pull him but don't use threats, just be firm but very calm and keep the atmosphere upbeat. Keep your own body language relaxed and dont' actually face him, keep sideways on to him. Use good rewards (liver, chicken etc) to lure him to where you want, and to reward once he's there.

Once the dog has got into the habit of doing what you want, and finds it rewarding, (consistency and repetition are key words) you should find he will soon start to do what you want willingly and then you can sense when to dispense with the long line and food rewards, but continue to "surprise" him with the occasional reward and praise.

What must also happen is that the dog must learn to do other things to if he doesn't already - such as sit for dinner, lead being put on, etc... but all done in an upbeat and nonconfrontational manner - basically it should be enjoyable for the dog. If you follow suggestions such as I've outlined, but there is still confrontation in other areas, my suggestion won't help as it needs to be looked at as a whole.

This is how I'd deal with it. If you are at all worried about this, I'd suggest getting someone round - a behaviourist would be best (avoid charlatans and seek advice for a good one) or a good local trainer may also be great help (try www.apdt.co.uk for one near you )

Hth a bit
Lindsay
x

Lindsay,

Yes I've got a 'clicker' and I use that with them all.
I've told Jakc not to be confrontational and not give eye contact. Sax has tried it with me twice. He's not just 'mumbling' my Mastiff does that.
We have been getting him to do regular training and he's very good for us. He is really good in every other way not pushy or demanding at all. He sits, downs and recalls well it's just he 'dominance' at times.
I haven't used spray guns or anything as he just plays with them.
I have an appointment for him at the vets on Wednesday as I have been wonderong about his hips since we got him. I've not seen a Rottie with HD but he seems to 'cast' his right leg when trotting not when walking just trotting.
I think Jack has pushed his rear end, not too hard I've watched him this morning, when he wouldn't go outside so if he's hurting then Sax may well react. I didn't do that though and he still growled at me.
Jack has quite a 'strong' attitude with Sax as well and a really deep voice.
Saxon has always been a 'ladies' dog but I've never had any problem with him with men.

I'll put a handle on his collar I hadn't thought of that then we can get him to go out without having to 'push' him.

I give the dogs a treat when I let them in should I maybe give the treat when they are outside???
they all just sit and wait for their treats. they all sit and wait for their own bowl at mealtimes no jumping around.
As I say it's the only thing we have to deal with with Sax and I'd hate him to get any worse.

It depends on why you are giving treats - whether it is literally as a treat or whether it is a a reward :)

You could try actually getting him on a long line, in a completely different area, and first of all try getting him to follow your hand with a tasty bit of food in.
Feed him loads and use clicker etc ...following the hand is SO useful to teach anyway.

This may be all that is needed to get him to go outside - using the food to lure him...and then reward him outside. You may need to use the long line if he still wont go, but still reward when he is outside. With Sax, yes, I'd reward him for going outside - not when he is inside, although you can do that as well if its what he is used to.
You could also try tossing his rewards and clicker him for being outside...

The best results with clicker tend to come form a whole "philosophy" in a way, so if Jack is "strong" it may be confusing for Sax, as clicker trained dogs don't tend to respond very well to owners being overly firm but more to coaxing I find ;)

Hth, it would be interesting to hear what the vet says, about his leg...

Lindsay
x

Lindsay

I've realised over the last two days that I maybe give 'treats' too many times and the dogs, not just Saxon, sometimes misunderstand what is expected of them.
I've cut down on the 'treats' and instead of giving them as 'treats' I am now asking for more than just a 'sit'. Fortunately this is having a fantastic affect on the other three but not so much with Saxon. He's doing the sit and anything else I'm asking but is still being a pain to get outside. Jack is not being so 'dominant' to him and he seems to be respecting Jack a little more.

As for the 'clicker' I've used it more, in the past, with my pony.
It is working for almost everything with all four dogs. They are responding well to the 'clicker/reward' than anything else I've used.

I've been 'training' Saxon to go outside on his own and he is responding well. He is still a little stubborn when I put the others out with him. I have a camera outside and it doesn't seem that the others are bullying him in any way.
Is it possible that when Saxon is being stubborn it's because he doesn't actually 'need' to go out??As when he goes out happily he always does his business. Also his previous owner didn't allow him to toilet in her yard. so maybe this could be having an affect on him? He is no problem if I allow him to use the toilet on his walk but I prefer to have my dogs toilet on my property rather than outside where kids play. He would prefer never to have to go in the yard. My garden is totally seperate from my yard so this could be arranged. Avoiding the issue isn't a good idea though????
We've tried ot 'lure' him outside but he doesn't fall for it.

I'm going next Wednesday for his vet appt.Luckily enough I've spoken to his previous owner and she still has insurance ongoing and is prepared to let us use that if any expensive treatment is needed.

Hi again,

Glad things seem to be looking up a bit :)
From what you have said about the previous owner not allowing him to go in the yard, it may well be part of the problem. He may have all sorts of concerns, as a dog, about doing this now... I agree this may well be a big part of the problem.

I would suggest a lot depends on your own particular routine, how much you need him to go out with the others, etc...over time, he may learn to go out anyway...you can keep rewarding him for going out...if you for example, leave the door open, and don't be too concerned, you may find he goes out anyway after a while if the other dogs are doing that...:)

He sounds like rather a character :P

Lindsay
x

Lindsay,

We've been leaving the door open and Saxon seems happy to go out of his own volition. Then I thought but what if it is the fact that Jack is asking Saxon to do things that is the problem for him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I set up a training time where Jack has asked Saxon to go into the front garden. This is not a secure garden so I wouldn't leave him there alone but he doesn't do off so he's safe when we are there. There was no problem whatsoever even when Saxon didn't really want to go. He just looked at Jack and went out anyway. Jack gave him a reward when he was outside and then let him in. We have only done this for ten minutes a couple of times so there's no telling what might happen as time goes by.
The only problem I can see is I that I don't want him using my front garden as a toilet area. The other option is to allow hi to toilet when he is on his walk and take bags again. We have only done this for ten minutes a couple of times so there's no telling what might happen as time goes by.
I know it's a bit like avoiding the issue but I 'phoned his previous owner this morning and apparently her husband used to grab Sax by the scruff and chuck him out in the yard if he wouldn't go.

I didn't think this was going to be a big problem and initially only asked because I hadn't dealt with rotties in a long time but thanks, to everyone, for their help and advice.

I hope that Saxon's hips are OK when he goes to the vet and that Jack keeps up with his training.
I only do 10-15 mins with him but Jack does most of his training when he takes him out. Just general training and socialisation.

Ah, it does sound as if there's been some problem before, and that you are reaping the problems perhaps caused by the previous owners!
At least they were honest with you as that does help to get a good picture.
I'd say that Sax has "issues" with the back yard for some reason, probably to do with his other home, and that over time, and with the sensible training you are doing, it
will hopefully disappear. Ihope so, and hope too that his hips are fine :)

Good luck
Lindsay
x

Hi Dawn -

I agree that you should go to the vet and ask the vet to refer you to an APBD registered behaviourist -  www.apbc.org.uk

However - if he was going to go to the loo on your carpet, I think he's probably not house trained, or he's confused and hasn't realised that the same rules apply in your house as in the last house.  So I'd go back to basics, taking him outside - one of you going out with him, waiting while he toilets, then giving him a treat when he toilets outside. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is - look at your overall training methods.  I could be wrong because it could be that you haven't fully described things, but just going on what you say here, you shout at him when he toilets inside, you put him outside and exclude him at other times, and you make no mention of praising good behaviour or of giving treats for when he goes in the right place or is a good boy.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should use no verbal punishment, I'm just saying that you have to look at the amount you are giving and the amount of rewards you are giving, and the rewards should always outweigh the punishments. 

Another thought - since you put him outside to exclude him, as a punishment, if he sees 'outside' as a punishment, and you want him to go 'outside' on his own to toilet, then could it be that he thinks he is being punished whenever you put him outside on his own, and not necessarily sent to toilet?

He is usually very clean but I just put the carpet down a few days ago. I don't know whether he was tyring to 'mark' or what. We only had a couple of accidents when we first got him and he's been great since.

I only shouted on this occassion as it was my new carpet. I've only 'excluded' him when he has growled at my son.
I use the clicker and treats with all the dogs.
In every other way this dog is fantastic. I'm not saying I 'can't' manage his trianing I was only asking for advice as I haven't had a Rottie in nearly 15yrs so maybe other owners have devised other methods.

I do have Mastiffs and JRT's.

Hi there

I agree with the above, seek professional advice from a vet and/or behaviourlist.

Has Sax been neutered?  This can help calm dogs down providing you are not going to breed from him.

Worth considering in discussion with your vet.

I would also go back to basic's with Sax.  If he is allowed on bed's/seatees I would ban this for a while and tell him to sit on the floor or in his own bed.   Dont allow him to sit on the stairs or anywhere where he has a height advantage.  You all eat first and then he should eat after you, etc.  He needs to remember that he is not 'pack' leader.  But talk to the professionals.  I have with mine on a couple of issues and they have always been really helpful and solved the problem.  Remember that advice given takes time and sometimes it can feel like you are not getting anywhere, or that they get it, and then go back to square one.  Stick at it!

All the best

Yolanda,

I take your advice on board but, no offence, I am not a new dog owner. I have dealt with rescue dogs through out my life.
I have done all the things you say to keep Sax down in the pack. I have said he isn't neutered and explained why. Although it is something I have considered.
I am not considering breeding Saxon. Who would with a rescue dog???????????
Please read my reply above.

Fair enough Dawn.
Sorry to talk to you as if you were a new owner! Some people do breed from rescue dogs/pedigree muts, why not? I wouldn't have my two if people just bred from Pedigree!
You know what you are doing, good luck and I wish you all well.

Peoipele most certainly should not breed from rescue dogs or mutts or unregistered pedigree dogs. 

It is unethical and irresponsible for various reasons.  You know nothing of the genetic background, and even with the best research you can still produce dogs with problems, so taking such chances with the dogs and future owners well being is immoral.

There are sadly far too may dogs in rescue due to people being irresponsible with breeding and homing of dogs.

Although I wouldn't breed form Saxon his pedigree is known, I'm waiting for his papers, and he is registered. He's a glorious dog to have around. I think this is just a 'glitch'. It came as a shock because he's been so good since we got him. It's as if he's been here forever.

I have a similar problem with my 6month old Rottweiler bitch...she doesnt like being told what to do and will sometimes growl at me like she's being a right "Kevin".  I hope she grows out of this because with friends and other members of the family she is great its just me and my partner

I have to say, my rotts are verbal and if I want them to play at tuggy or if my oh has a little play fight with them they will growl at us however they have never ever growled at us any other time or when being told to simply go outside - My boys grandmother (sires side) is very very grumbly however and even when stroking her she will moan but if told to do something she will?  I would ensure that you keep on and follow through your command as the minute he starts to think that his growling lets him get away with things is the time that you will have mega problems. 

I have to say with mine i know the difference with her being vocal and this is not just her being vocal...she barks and growls although in her defence MOST of the time her tail is wagging but it still appears to be an agressive growl

Boudie, if she is growling aggressively then you really should do something about it, I don't think she will 'grow' out of it - she is young so will be trying it on however none of my dogs (not just rotts) have growled at me and I would never put up with it!  I suggest you get a behaviourist in, do as the above post suggest, don't allow her on sofa, upstairs or to eat before you.  Only play with her when you want to play and do not leave food down for her all day - if she does not eat it within 10 mins take it up.  This breed can be incredibly stubborn and take control if allowed, mine do not have mega strict rules but they are not allowed upstairs, on the sofa or to demand my attention - all breeds are different but you do have to be more consistent with rottweilers at the beginning - once you have established who is in control she will be fantastic! Deff seek some advice from a trainer that can come around and observe ;)

I understand what you're saying and thank you for your response, however she is never allowed on the sofa, she eats after us and is never allowed in any bedrooms.  I am now taking her to obedience training, she is getting on really well and to be honest this "growling" business is the only thing i can fault her on.
keep safe xx

I would just like to say that Saxon is a fantastic dog in every other respect and that I am asking for advice from those that have owned Rotties for a number of years as I haven't owned one in the last 15yrs. I had 4 then.
I thought that there may be some 'new' ideas out there that will work with him.
I don't allow him, or the other dogs on sofa's, to eat before adults, they don't jump up or greed, they sit and wait for their meals. All in all thye are pretty well mannered dogs. They are not allowed to demand play and they don't run round the house like loonies unless I allow it.

Boudie,

I do agree with the other poster thought don't let your girl, at such a young age, get away with growling at you. Saxon was 13months old when i got him and he hasn't started till now. If I'd had him from a pup I could have dealt with it at a younger age and i wouldn't bew in this position now.