Anyone who's read my posts this week will know that I have a 7month old Bull Terrier.  Indoors he could not be more obdedient, outside his reaction to other dogs and to a lesser degree, people, is "inappropriate", and possbily could be described as aggresive..

Being a responsible person, he is going to have some 1-2-1 session with a dog behaviourist, staring this Friday.  She has made no bones :) about the fact that she intends to take me and the boy right into as many places as possible that have a high density of people/dogs.  A trusted breeder and dog owner that I know has said that he would do precisely the same thing..

However, surely if he demonstrates these extreme traits when he sees any dog, even at distance, he is going to go NUTS if placed in a situation were there be lots of dogs and/or people..? 

Here is another thing.  I do keep him on a lead at all times, which I think is sensible.  So far any off lead dog that has crossed his path has basically bricked it when he puts on his "show".  But what would happen legally were an off lead dog to be a bit more gutsy, and approach anyway, despite the "show", and was consequently injured by my dog?  Were would I stand legally with that, if mine is on the lead..?

And one last thing.  I have read in a few books, and indeed that Bull Terrier breeder that I know has also said this, that a LONG lead often helps with dogs showing this reaction..  But surely it's safer to have him on the relatively short lead that I presently use?  I am no expert of course, but what are your thoughts on these matters...

Thank you..

she intends to take me and the boy right into as many places as possible that have a high density of people/dogs.

Hi Cain,
By this, do you mean that she is taking you to a controlled training environment? I would have thought that in the initial stages of training, the dogs to be around your dog should be carefully selected. I have one dog who has been described as a "stooge" dog by a behaviourist. By this she means, very confident in her in own skin, displays no sign of aggression but displays high levels of assurance and very unlikely to be challenged to a fight by another dog. With your dog, I would have thought that these are the dogs he should be socialised around. By going to an uncontrolled environment - you might meet a dog with worse aggression problems than your own and thus simply confirming your dogs thoughts that he has to be on hyper "I'll get you before you get me" mode.

The question about being on the lead and another dog approaches is a difficult one. Theoretically you could argue that THEIR dog was the one out of control and your dog was simply defending their personal space. Tricky though, I'm not sure.

As for the longer lead - some dogs only ever show aggression on lead. I have seen this many times. However, until you are more sure about his reactions and are further into his training then I would continue with a short lead for now.

Well done on tackling this issue! and good luck with the training. Keep us informed of how he is doing!

Thanks.

:)

Um, hmmm... re the taking your dog into lots of situations with lots of dogs... it *can* help, depending on what the dog's problems are, and why. I would be a bit concerned if a behaviourist hadn't seen your dog and said they were going to do this over the phone, as they would not have assessed your dog/you/ the situation.

Generally speaking, dogs need  to be "desensitised" and "counterconditioned" to other dogs, and this usually starts off with the problem dog being kept at a distance (called the "critical distance" ) and then lots of work is done so that the dog can over time, be brought closer and closer to other dogs without reacting. Such training may also include methods such as "parallel walking".

If you take a normally aggressive dog (whether fear aggressive or for some other reason) into an area full of dogs, it may either not react much (too many dogs, can't react to al, so it becomes apparently calmer but is seething/panicking inside) or, may react so much it gets totally over stressed and high on adrenalin! and learns to do it again, more, and quicker.

I'd maybe chat with your person and ask what methods they use and decide if you will be happy with them :)

There are people who work exceptionally well with aggressive dogs and mix the dogs with other dogs, but again this is done under very carefully controlled conditions with stooge dogs who are carefully selected and who will help to teach the other dog. This is different from taking a dog to a local park where any type of dog may be under control or not...

JMHO
Lindsay
x

Cain, hopefully the behaviourist that you have chosen is one that is a member of an accredited organisation such as the APBC/UKCRB and as such will have both empirical experience as well as academic study to back their decisions up.

I am sure that you are aware that any Tom, Dick or Harry can call themselves a behaviourist and some have even paid £25k for a six week training course to belong to a particular franchise so that they can, after this lengthy period of time :rolleyes: go out and advise the public.

There are various courses/behaviourists that specialise in this sort of work around the country and using this "flooding" technique in an uncontrolled environment sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

Give it careful thought........

Is there anything that you are afraid of Cain?  If you were afraid of rats, do you think you would be more likely to overcome this fear by getting used to one rat at a distance where you felt safe and only going closer when you were happy about it or if you were taken into an environment where there were rats running all over the place, and perhaps popping up where you least expect them?

Silly example probably and I do understand that the solution is not to avoid all other dogs forever.  But I'm with those who have expressed doubts about going into a high density dog area so early on in training - I think it'll just stress your boy out.

All that I would add here is to make sure that you are insured and the trainer is also.

Yes, I am insured.  Just got back from like a FIVE MINUTE walk outside, and this is really no fun at all.  Don't get me wrong, I am frim with him, and so on, and as I have said, for a 7 month old dog of ANY breed, he is so obedient in the house, and has no problem with people coming into the house either.

But during this five minute walk, he saw another dog, on a lead, across the other side of the road, and it was the usual "show" of apparent aggression, moaning, barking, growling.  Thannkfully, the other lad was sensible, kept his distance, and did all the right things, but the LOOK that he gave me :(

Yes, I do try to stay calm, and I do try to stay in control, but I am only human, and when this happens, it just feels like no pleasure, and a bit of a bind to be honest..

Sorry if I sound a little negative today, but I have just come in, and that is why..

You poor thing!
What do you do when he is exhibiting this behaviour?
When I have younger dogs who are still learning, I always head out for my walks armed with tasty liver treats! That way, if any behaviour arises I don't want (barking, fear of trucks etc) I can distract quickly and reward immediately for looking away or stopping the behaviour I don't want.

Well what I do is essentially try to remove him from the source of the problem, like today, when that happened, the other guy stood back and remained still with his dog on a lead, and I used a firm voice and removed him from the source.

It seems to be worst if he sees the dog at distance, though that is not to imply that he is that great close up.

He shows a similar reaction to people, but ONLY when outside.  If I walk past the person though, he is 100% friendly with them, but you have to see it from their point of view, they see me across the road, and a dog that wants to be friendly with them, displaying too much feistyness and the wrong kind of vocals.

I did take a treat with me today, for the purpose of the distraction thing, but I have to be honest and say that during the "show", I forgot all about it.

I'm going to bed at night exhausted :(

Yes, it can make you feel exhausted and walks become a nightmare.

Until you see your behaviourist, who will hopefully help you to establish the motivation for the behaviour and sort out a training programme, it might be better to try to avoid situations which you know will get him going.  Easier said than done, absolutely, but at the moment I would keep him at whatever distance he needs to be from other dogs to keep him calm, for which you can reward him well.  What you want to avoid is having him put on his "show" whenever he is obliged to pass another dog and it becoming a habit - for a while this may mean staying a good distance away, until you can establish the quiet behaviour that you want in the presence of another dog. 

Distraction doesn't work once a dog gets wound up.  Also, if fear is his motivation (which might or might not be the case), then fearful dogs respond better to being allowed to have a look at the approaching dog but from a distance where they don't feel the need to start the show.  This is why you need to establish what the motivation is - frustration at not being able to meet another dog can sometimes turn into a "show" too. 

The other thing I would say, is that while you are dealing with this problem, make sure you get some time to play with your boy on his own and really have fun.  Sometimes you get so worried about the one thing, that you forget how much fun, how obedient and responsive your dog can be in other circumstances.  Your dog isn't broken, he just has an area in which he needs further training.

Thanks, all taken on board.

However, if I were to avoid all situation were he demonstrates this inappropriate behaviour, I/we would never leave the house, given that he displays a similar reaction to people outdoors as well!  He shows such a reaction to a neighbour who was leaving HIS house the other day, and I cannot legislate for that - :(

Point taken.  It's much easier for those of us who live in the country, although we are more likely to have the problem in the first place!

Good luck for tomorrow.

Thanks.

I want to help him as much as I physically can.  :)

I will let you know how we get on...

Okay, just back from the 2 hour stint, and I have to say that this went a lot better than I expected.  We took him straight into the town centre, there were people and there were some dogs, and he was v good, eventually.  Clearly, it will take repitition, and persistance, but now I feel there is hope, and that we can work on his problem areas.  The "Gentle Leader" used in tandem with the half choke collar also added to the control that we had over him - :)