Just a reminder for any Clever Clogs out there ....Test the Nation on at 9.10.p.m. BBC1 this evening (and you can take it online!!)

Margot

Now to wait for the results.

Was I the only one to be niggled by Ann Robinson saying that some of the questions were 'comprehension' when in fact they were merely memory tests?

We are waiting for results too ...and yes, we said the same thing about the *memory* tests ;)

bet you get top marks Mel :p

LOL Bet I dont :D

JeanGenie, I was peeved at the comprehension questions.  I totally agree they were purely memory tests.  I thought it was going to be just English tests as well, what was all the text stuff about? I wasn't aware that it would become valid for English tests.  Also what about the rhyming slang, I love it but surely I wasn't the only one that had never heard of some of them, probably because they are regional.

Reading back my post, I don't think I will do very well at the Test the Nation :D

There was a little comprehension - the Shakespeare. I'm glad they made a point of my favourite - the difference between 'less' and 'fewer'! :)

I scored 62. :)

I'm not convinced they had the right answer for that Palace, though. There are very few places which are correctly spelled like that - St Thomas's Hospital is a prime example. St James's Palace might be a special case (I'll have to check), but usually you'd write St James'.

Beat me JG ...54 here :D

We are not convinced either JG ..I have a son, Thomas and I have always written 'Thomas' toys' :p Ah well ;)

Yep, the palace is a special case, like the hospital. My dictionary agrees that usually it would be James' or Thomas'.

Well done that was a very high score. I got 51.

My son's name is James and I often wonder about the apostrophe.  I thought if something belonged to James it would James' but Bridget Jones's Diary got me wondering.  Must have been doing this wrong all my life, how annoying. Still none the wiser.

I didn't see the show but I did the test online.  I'm something of a pedant about grammar, spelling and punctuation and the idea of a test which examined our command of language intrigued me.  I should state that I would never suggest that I always use correct grammar.  Nobody (nobody normal, anyway) follows every rule and if one were to attempt it the result would sound weird and contrived.  Language is constantly changing and it's both snobbish and futile to oppose linguistic progress.

What often bothers me is that a significant number of people seem to possess no understanding when it comes to basic English.  This is going to make me sound like a real crusty (I'm 25!) but the misuse of English is particularly prevalent among the under-35s.  I suspect this is partly because very few children now study Latin.  It is admittedly the world's dullest subjectand on the whole fairly useless in daily life, but as a grammatical tool it is excellent.

Poor spoken English irritates me but I can live with it and it almost always makes sense.  What I detest is mangled written English.  It's fine if used in an e-mail or an informal message board but I frequently see mistakes in newspapers, business letters, advertisements etc.  I recently received a CV and the author had not only misspelt the word "veterinary" two different ways but throughout the text had written "could of" and "would of".  It looks very sloppy and unprofessional when someone doesn't bother to proof read a CV.

Anyway I shall stop ranting and get back to the original point.  I thought the Test was for the most part absolute rubbish.  Of course it's only a bit of fun but I fail to see how a knowledge of collective nouns or cricket history can measure linguistic skill!  Perhaps I'm taking it a bit too seriously!

I agree that St James' Palace is correct.  I would also like to point out that Anne Robinson shouldn't feel too smug given that she frequently commits a glaring grammatical error.  During the final round of "The Weakest Link" she bellows "Who is the weakest link?"  There are only two contestants at this stage so of course she should ask "Who is the weaker link?"  I may make mistakes but I don't do it on national television!

When I re-read this message it dawned on me that in 40 years I'll probably have become "Disgusted from Herts" and will spend my spare time writing to Points of View!

M-C

*edited to add:  I scored 63 but I imagine the test is easier online*

JG ..I have to ask ...are you a TOG perchance?

I scored 62 as well!   I too get soo annoyed at mis-spelling, bad punctuation et al .....

I did know that St James's is correct ;)

Margot

Found this and it is backed up by a couple of other websites  - "If the singular noun ends with an s, add apostrophe s if the extra syllable is pronounced. If the extra syllable is not pronounced (or if it otherwise looks confusing to add apostrophe s), simply add an apostrophe.

Examples: the dress's hem
(Added syllable is pronounced.)
Lloyd Bridges' son
(Added syllable is not pronounced.)

Some authorities always add an apostrophe only to any word ending with s, regardless of its pronunciation. This is acceptable. Whichever standard you follow, be consistent.

Example: the dress' hem
(Word ends in s, pronunciation does not matter.)"

So, Test the Nation might wish they hadn't added that question last night.

Who, me? Whatever makes you think that? ;)

My favourite joke gives me away, I suppose:
Q. Who led the Pedant's Revolt?
A. Which Tyler!

*falls about laughing* :D :D

When it comes to we come to possessive nouns - ie the dog's bone - or if you like, the bone of the dog, the same rule applies to special nouns (ie names), so although the name may end in "S", the rule still applies - you wouldn't say "Stephen' house" - its "Stephen's house", so similarly, it should be James's house.

The apostrophe is widely misused. Words that end in s do not necessarily need to contain an apostrophe. It is used only to indicate an abbreviation or possession.

Margot

I got  64 and hubby got 65, he got a comprehension right that I mis-read. My kids knew the possessive noun rule because they went to a Primary School called St. Thomas's C.E. School !!

So, with the apostrophe if you always add it to denote possession what about the example of Lloyd Bridges' son?  You wouldn't  say Lloyd Bridges's son.  Is there a grey area here? 

You can see why I only scored 51  :D

Mind you how many of you knew the rhyming slang for deaf was corned beef?

The position of the apostrophe can also show quantity. "The dog's bowl" belongs to one dog, whereas "the dogs' bowl" is used by several dogs.
:)

I got the corned beef one right ... YAY :D :D

LOL It was *someone* calling me Mel on there ;) :D I am assuming that was you? :D

Last Christmas I received three copies of Lynne Truss's (or Lynne Truss') book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves".  Obviously I don't hide my pedantry terribly well!  I'm sure most of you are familiar with the book.  It's fairly short and very well-written.  The book contains a long chapter on the use and misuse of apostrophes.  The happy news is that we're all correct.  Lynne Truss writes

"...these are matters of style and preference that are definitely not set in stone, and it's a good idea not to get fixated about them...

Consulting a dozen or so recently published punctuation guides, I can report that they contain minor disagreements on virtually all aspects of the above... there are no absolute rights and wrongs in this matter."

It would seem that either method is correct but a writer must be consistent.

M-C

P.S.  A few minutes ago I went into my kitchen intending to make a Cup A Soup.  You can probably imagine my annoyance when I noticed the phrase "less than 60 calories"  on the box.  I would have expected better from Waitrose! 

The one thing that I learnt last night was the difference  between 'Less than' and 'Fewer than' ...very interesting and not something that I had ever thought of before

:)

The less/fewer difference is one of my pet niggles! You have less money or fewer coins.

There was another interesting fact pointed out, but typically I've forgotten what it was ... :o

I have various niggles ...'of/have' is one of them but aslo the use of 'ect' rather than 'etc'   ARGHHH!

Ooh yes! When people write "I should of done ..." rather than "I should have done ..." Aaarrrrggghh indeed! When it's spoken it sounds similar (should've) but it's clear when written.

'Ect' is used a lot on here - makes me snigger every time! :D :D

Oooh and the OTHER thing misused on here (not quite as often now as as a year or so ago) is *Sic* ;)

So do I take it that I am not the only person who wants to go through some posts and send them back with red corrections :D?

I have to confess to feeling so irritated sometimes at certain posts that I just cannot be bothered to read them through

Margot

You and me both, Margot! I suspect there may be several more too!

Ooh, another one that niggles is when I read something like "The government were going to vote ...", when it's clear there's only one government being referred to so it has to be "The government was ..."

So there we are, with red pen all over the computer screens :D :D :D

(Makes messages awfully difficult to read ;0 )

Margot

A Brillo pad sorts it! ;)

Ex husband sent me a letter once that was SO full of spelling mistakes and grammatical errors that I went through it with a red pen and sent it back to him

Says it all really :p :p :p

Thanks M-C for settling the apostrophe query.  That puts my score up to 52 - whoopee do :)

*sic* is not something I've used.  I've seen it used to denote sarcasm I think.  I thought it was to inform the reader that a quote has been copied exactly i.e. if a quote has a spelling mistake the *sic* tells the reader that the spelling mistake is the original writer's.

there, their and they're are my pet hates, but I am reluctant to say too much because I know I slip up with grammar.

If you can remember HERE and THERE are places, THEIR belongs to HE and HER and THEY'RE is what they are doing!

Margot

Oooh yes ...another favourite error here ...'they're, there and their'

ARGHHH

Pedantic? Moi?

Oh and another (sorry guys) ...brought and bought !

There are not only people who put their, there and they're in the wrong places but even more annoying is that they're not consistent. It's as if they hedge their bets and put all of them in a piece of work hoping that at least one of them will be correct.

I also thought (sic) denotes a mistake which has been deliberately reproduced.  I checked the dictionary which actually gives two definitions.

1. sic (adv). thus: inserted in brackets in a text to indicate that an odd spelling or reading is in fact what was written, even though it is or appears to be wrobg.

2. sic (vb) 1. to attack: used only in commands to a dog. 2. to urge a dog to attack someone.

M-C

Yes, but a few people on here used it to simply quote something ;) I *know* the correct useage of it as it was one of my dad's favourite grumbles :)

M-C slightly off topic but the sic and dog attack you just mentioned reminds me of a friend who gave her GSD to the police force as she couldn't cope with it.  The police phoned her a few weeks later to let her know that the dog was doing very well but they had changed his name.  The dog's original name was Caesar :D

ROTFL! 

I must admit that I had to read that twice because I didn't understand it the first time!

And another one :    I will drown, and no-one shall save me    -    suicide
                            I shall drown and no-one will save me      -    accident
;)

Margot

I was once told that it's the other way about in Scotland, though how true or not that is I don't know.

to, too and two.

affect and effect

spaded rather than spayed (or speyed)

I'm so pleased that for once I'm not the sole pedant! 

M-C

past and passed. I've seen these put in the wrong places so many times that I have to stop and think myself now.

Another pet hate is the use of "Can I" instead of "May I" .  I can still hear my grandmother saying "You are able to leave the table.  Whether or not you have permission is an entirely different matter." 

Ooo oo oo I've got a good one - double negatives - don't you just want to put them right?  I haven't got nothing. Oh, you must have something then.