Not logged inChampdogs Information Exchange
Forum Breeders Help Search Board Index Active Topics Login

Find your perfect puppy at Champdogs
The UK's leading pedigree dog breeder website for over 25 years

Topic Dog Boards / Visitors Questions / Mutt in my show bitches litter?
- By Guest [gb] Date 07.10.05 21:22 UTC
Hello my show boxer had a litter 5 weeks ago there are 4 boys and 3 girls, but one of the girls is fluffy and completely black. i don't understand, i have used a well known stud and he is a champion.  all the other 6 pups look like pedigree boxers. thinking back when she was in season i did leave her in the garden for 10 mins while i poped up the shop, but i don't think any dog would jump over my garden wall it is very high, and if a dog did jump in i cant see that it would of mated her then just gone all in under 10 mins. i know i was stupid to leave her but i just didn't think. how could there be just one mutt in the litter with the others pedigree is this possible.  can i register the 6 boxer pups? what do i do about the mix breed, what do i sell him as if i don't know the father? should i just give him away? but i don't want just anyone having him? he looks so funny amongst all the boxer pups. can i be certain that the rest are pure breed boxers, they look like boxers, and mum had three good ties with the stud. any advice would be appreciated. thanks.
- By Jeangenie [gb] Date 07.10.05 21:24 UTC
Yep, quite possible that one is a crossbreed. Bitches will mate as many dogs as opportunity gives them during their fertile period, and litters sired by different fathers aren't uncommon.

To avoid legal action the best thing to do is have all the pups DNA tested, then you can register the pedigrees and not the cross. She can be sold as a crossbreed for a nominal sum.
- By polly_45 [gb] Date 07.10.05 21:50 UTC
Hi Guest not being rude or anything, but if you have a show quality bitch and you used a well known champion stud, im afraid you would of already had this one to the vets for DNA just MO and has for registering them they are five weeks old now.did you not think about this when you was thinking of names for them what if you dont get the names you want from the kennel club.why dont you ask the stud dogs owner for their advice.regards pollyxx
- By thomas-the-spot [gb] Date 08.10.05 05:52 UTC
Polly I am a little confused why would she have had them DNA tested already?  I have never had any of my pups DNA tested or the mum.
- By LucyD [gb] Date 08.10.05 06:26 UTC
Ah, poor little thing. I don't know anything about Boxers - I assume there's no sort of throw back type that could come out black and fluffy? I agree the best thing to do is to get the litter DNA tested, which should tell you which ones are purebred. Let us know how it goes!
- By Boxacrazy [gb] Date 08.10.05 06:50 UTC
No. There's not anything black and fluffy in the Boxer breed's recent history.
So would be highly suspicious that it is indeed the result of a unwanted visitor
gaining access to the bitch whilst she was left in the garden.

I like most of the other posters would advise that you should get all the pups in
the litter DNA tested to prove that they are indeed 100% Boxer otherwise if you
sell the puppies on as pure Boxer and as they grow they change into 'Boxer crosses'
The new owners will be pretty annoyed to have paid the price of a purebred Boxer.They could then ask for compensation from you the breeder.
The DNA testing will probably have to be done at the AHT (Animal Health Trust)
not sure how much they charge for each test.  You will need the mother and fathers DNA
and then the pups will have to be tested individually. They should be able to tell
you from these tests how many are pure Boxer and how many aren't.
It is possible for there to be two sire's for one litter if the bitch get's mated by two dogs.
- By Phoebe [gb] Date 08.10.05 11:46 UTC
I'd have thought if the stud dog owner was anything like reputable, they'd refuse to sign the KC litter registration form unless the litter is DNA tested!
- By Staffie lover [gb] Date 08.10.05 14:37 UTC
why Phoebe?
most stud owners do it at the time of mating so how could they of know?
- By Phoebe [gb] Date 08.10.05 17:26 UTC
Do they? The breeders I know usually don't. I thought a lot of stud dog owners - especially if the dog is champion - would wait till the litter is on the ground before signing the registration for this very reason. A dog's stud career could be ruined by someting like this.
- By Jeangenie [gb] Date 08.10.05 17:31 UTC
As the owner of the bitch, I've always had the signed form in my possession immediately the mating has taken place and the stud fee paid.
- By Phoebe [gb] Date 08.10.05 17:54 UTC
I am surprised I must admit. I can't remember the last time a friend of mine charged the full fee up front for her boys. The usual is a deposit and the balance/KC form once the puppies are born. Maybe she's just a trusting soul. :D
- By Lady Dazzle [gb] Date 08.10.05 18:24 UTC
Thats exactly what happens with my Studs, the signed certificate is handed over once the mating has taken place and the full fee paid.

That is with both Champions and non-Champion studs.

Maybe its a breed specific thing, but don't know anyone in my breed who does anything different apart from Maiden dogs.  When the Stud Fee is paid after the birth of the pups and the certificate forwarded then.
- By LucyD [gb] Date 09.10.05 08:03 UTC
Same with Cavs as far as I know, certainly when my boy's been used I get the stud fee and sign the form at time of mating.
- By Jeangenie [gb] Date 09.10.05 08:06 UTC
After all, a stud fee is for the services of the stud, not payment for a litter. Once the mating's happened, the fee's payable. The form is signed by the stud owner to confirm that the mating took place.
- By Phoebe [gb] Date 09.10.05 12:10 UTC
What would happen if the bitch didn't have puppies? I probably should start a new thread for this really.

I know somebody in shar-pei a long time ago who used to openly advertise their males and state that they charge the stud fee based on how many puppies the bitch had!
- By Anwen [gb] Date 09.10.05 12:24 UTC
As the owner of a stud dog, a person can ask whatever they want as the fee. In my breed, it's not uncommon to charge a small flat "service" fee plus so much per puppy. Can't see anything wrong with that myself.
- By Jeangenie [gb] Date 09.10.05 12:42 UTC
If the stud has already sired pups, and a bitch misses to him, it's generally agreed that a repeat mating will be given free at the next season (as long as dog and bitch are in the same ownership, etc).

If it's a maiden stud then a nominal 'service charge' (about £50, non-refundable) is payable at the time of mating, and the rest of the fee payable either on confirmation of pregnancy or the birth of a litter. The details vary, so it's important to get it down in writing.
- By Lady Dazzle [in] Date 09.10.05 13:47 UTC
If there is no reason to suspect that the stud dog is infertile (i.e. that he has produced puppies by previous matings) then the suspicions tend to fall with the bitch if no puppies result from a good mating.  The reasons can be many - that the bitch owner has calculated the wrong day (and the bitch has been brought to the dog either too early or too late), the bitch could re-absorb the puppies, the bitch especially a maiden bitch could be infertile, etc.

My stud contract states that a free return will be given if no live puppies result from the mating (if it a case of puppies having been born and being lost early on, then I insist that the bitch is swab tested before she is brought back for her free return, in case of infection, etc.)

As a stud dog owner I can assure you that getting a bitch sucessfully mated can be a very time consuming business and therefore I am being paid for my time and effort, not for the resulting puppies. 
- By thomas-the-spot [gb] Date 09.10.05 15:13 UTC
I have NEVER paid the stud fee until the pups have been sold.  This was even from when I was totally unknown and I have never charged in advance for the stud fee either.  I have used both Champions and non and never been asked for it.  I always give the fee to the stud dog owner when they come to view the litter.  If they asked for it in advance I would but never have been. 
- By SharonM Date 09.10.05 08:50 UTC
Same here, I always get the signed green form immediately after the first mating has taken place.
- By kao kate [gb] Date 10.10.05 09:09 UTC
Hi as the owner of a Champ stud i ask for bitches to be DNA profiled but the litter reg form is given to the bitch owners at the time of mating, reputable breeders are providing a service with a dog they will have already checked out the bitch and her owners before allowing the stud to mate her unless pick of the litter is taken stud fees are normally payable at mating and the person who has paid for the service (bitch owner) is entiled to receive a receipt and the appropiate paperwork to register the resulting litter.
- By Amos [in] Date 08.10.05 11:48 UTC
They can do a DNA test at animal health trust and you need to take a cheek swab from each pup and the parents. They will be able to tell you in 2 weeks if the pups are from that sire. It is easy to do and not too expensive.
Amos
- By bowers Date 08.10.05 15:27 UTC
It hasnt got the line in bruce cattanach bred his bobtails from has it, as i think he used corgis and you can  get tri colours in them, you might just have a throwback, id check it out/
- By Boxacrazy [gb] Date 08.10.05 16:59 UTC
But even so Corgi's don't have fluffy coats...

The corgi he used in the bobtail line was a red and white bobtail corgi.
I can't comment if the bloodlines behind him have tri-colour but I can check
with Dr Cattanach.
To my knowledge there are no Champion Boxers in the UK with the bobtail lineage.

Obviously I can't comment re the bitch's bloodlines. As I don't know the breeding of that.
Also it depends if two red Boxers were mated together in this instance there wouldn't be the chance
of any black puppies regardless of bobtail bloodlines or not as two reds together will only
produce reds/red and white and whites (depending on how flashy the parents are).
- By Anwen [gb] Date 08.10.05 21:24 UTC
Erm .... actually you can get fluffy Corgis (but not black ones). Don't you think 2 questions on crossbreeds in half an hour a little iffy? :(
- By perrodeagua [gb] Date 08.10.05 21:31 UTC
I've seen fluffy corgi's!
- By Boxacrazy [gb] Date 09.10.05 07:59 UTC
When I think of fluffy I think of a semi-longhaired/longhaired thick coat.
:) (I have two semi-longhaired cats who I'd call fluffy).

I doubt very much whether this is anything to do with the 'bobtail' Boxers
and all coats on the 6-7th generation (which is what the current crop of bobtails
are) aren't fluffy. They are typical Boxer coat which is short and not fluffy.

I've not noticed the other crossbreed question yet...I'll go look.

- By polly_45 [gb] Date 09.10.05 15:55 UTC
Hi Thomas If i read the post correct, she states she has a show bitch and she used a top champ. surely she would of known before this puppy reached 5wks old.I like you havent had any of my puppies dna tested or for that any of my girls, as the need has never arisen but by the same token i never leave any of my bitches outside when in season although i might add my garden has 8ft fencing all around so the possibilities of another dog getting to one of my girls is zilch.sorry if my post was misleading it wasnt intended.cheers polly
- By D4wn [gb] Date 09.10.05 23:37 UTC
If the bitch is a 'show bitch' then surely someone on here would know of her????
likewise with the dog if he's a champion dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What are the bitches and the dogs names???????????????????????????????????//
- By Goldmali Date 09.10.05 23:58 UTC
Hang on a minute. I've been reading this thread just out of interest, not had anything to add. Then suddenly it hit me.Short coat is dominant, long coat is recessive so therefore has to be carried by both parents to show up. Which for instance explains why all my accidental pups Golden Ret x Malinois ended up being short coated (well double coated to be precise, but mum's coat anyway). Boxer surely isn't a breed where longhair pups appear sometimes like in say GSDs, so this bitch should not possibly be able to carry the gene for long coat. So how can a puppy be FLUFFY regardless of parentage? Even if the sire of that was a rough collie or anything else equally long coated the pup should still be shortcoated because of its mum being a Boxer, surely????
- By D4wn [gb] Date 10.10.05 10:39 UTC
Goldmali,

I would have expected anyone breeding a Show bitch would have some breeding experience so therefore, as you say, would notice a marked difference in one of her pups.
I haven't bred now for years but I help whelp a couple of my friends bitches. I'm pretty confident that I would notice a 'difference' if a pup was as unusual to their breed as she describes.
- By polly_45 [gb] Date 10.10.05 00:17 UTC
exactley dawn If we dont know her bitch i think us boxer people on here would know the sire. like i said to thomas if she has a show bitch surely by the time the puppies reached five weeks old she would of seen that this one puppy was a cross.Im just wondering whos champ dog she used, as im sure his owner would love to read this thread.
regards polly
- By Boxacrazy [gb] Date 10.10.05 06:21 UTC
Most of us Boxer folk would immediately recognise the dog and owner
if told the KC name.
As would some of us if told the bitches KC name.
I've been showing for approx 16 years now in Boxers so would be able
to check back thru the catalogues etc.

Perhaps the poster is very inexperienced in breeding dogs and inexperienced
in the world of dogs etiquette?? I.E contact the sire's owner or perhaps they
are too embarrassed?
Certainly I have a very experienced mentor that I can call on if I come across anything
that I haven't seen before.
Topic Dog Boards / Visitors Questions / Mutt in my show bitches litter?

Powered by mwForum 2.29.6 © 1999-2015 Markus Wichitill

About Us - Terms and Conditions - Privacy Policy