My dobe was fine until about 14 months, he had always played very rough (growling, very vocal and pawing other dogs).  Anyway at 14 months he started wanting to mount male dogs, it happened about 4 times (each time was with a different schnauzer).  Anyway I started to keep him on the lead, also I spoke to my behaviourist who said "castration", which I had difficulty persuading my husband and sons, but in the end I just got it done, as it is me who walks my dog.  Anyway we are now 5 weeks on after the castration.  I have been lead walking  him in the park and I let him off when I can see in all directions.  The last few weeks have been good.  Also when people speak to me, I tell them why he is on lead, anyway a few people have said no problem let your dog off and he can have a play - which I have done and it has all been okay.  A couple of times he has gone to paw the dog (in the way he used to when trying to mount them), but they have just pulled away and continued to play and he has been fine.  Anyway point of the post, is yesterday we had finished our walk, and we had done a bit of training sit, stay, fetching the ball etc, we had had fun.  Anyway I put him on the lead as we approach the end of the park, and there we saw a dog he plays with Lilly she came in, so I let  him off again to play with her, he was fine I was just going to put him on the lead when bounding round the corner came a chocolate lab, my dobe ran over and started to play but then he done the pawing, growling etc. the dog laid down on the floor and my dog then started to go for the dog.  He shows his teeth, it all looks awful.  Anyway I grabbed hold of him and put him on the lead, and he sat like a perfect gentlemen (all hackles had gone down).  But obviously the owner of the other dog went absolutely beserk wanting to report me to the RSPCA.  I tried to explain that I am a responsible owner, but he offered to knock me out etc.  As much as my dog had been aggressive, the man was equally aggressive to me.  He said he was petrified of my dog and thought he would attack him, but he managed to put his fingers in my face and threaten to knock me out - I am sure if he was that afraid he would not have done that.  I was so upset (by the way I am a woman), I did apologise as this had happened and tried to explain about my dog, don't get me wrong I can understand he was very upset.  I really don't think my dog will actually hurt the dog, this is the fifth time he has done this (first since castration) and he never actually bites.  I have rung my behaviourist and left a message yesterday, I am hoping to hear from him today.   Also my training with my dobe is due to start in a couple of weeks.  I felt so sad yesterday as the last 5 weeks have been good, but I will continue with the lead walking in the park.  Also while he was on lead yesterday for a while, 3 dogs came bounding up to him barking etc. and he didn't even put his hackles up then.  I can't understand him!!! HELP!!!

It sounds to me like your Dobe was poorly socialised when a pup.  There are lots of dogs like this, which are fine with 'some' dogs and not with others.  Or their behaviour is unpredictable in some way around other dogs.  It is 95% of the time due to either undersocialisation with other dogs or to poor socialisation (ie bad experiences).

I don't want you to feel that I'm having a go at you, but the single most important thing you can do for your dog is to socialise it properly when a pup, double-especially if you have one of the guarding breeds like a Dobe.  You cannot just let your dog run around with other dogs, and assume that whatever happens is ok because it's part of 'socialisation' - that's not true.  If you want an unaggressive dog, then you must protect your pup from any displays of aggression from other dogs, whatsoever.  If you're not sure of another dog, then you should not let your pup play with it.  If play becomes too rough and you see your pup either bullying or being bullied, you should end the play as soon as you see this. 

I'm going to pick out a few things in your post:

"My dobe was fine until about 14 months, he had always played very rough (growling, very vocal and pawing other dogs). "

This should never have been allowed to happen.  You say he 'always' played very rough - making it sound like this happened again and again.  It should never have been allowed to happen even once.  I doubt the other dogs appreciated this kind of behaviour, in which case your dog was bullying them.  Your dog was teaching them to be a victim and to be afraid of other dogs.   Your dog was also teaching itself that it was dominant amongst other dogs and that it was ok and fun to bully them.  It is possible that your dog learnt this behaviour from another dog he socialised with.  To prevent this, you should have removed him from that situation as soon as you saw another dog begin to be rough with him.  But, when you realised your dog had the tendency to behave like this to other dogs, you should at the very least have not allowed him the chance to 'practise' being like this by doing it again and again and again with other dogs.  You should end all play as soon as this kind of behaviour starts, with the chance that he will learn that play ends and the lead goes back on when he gets too rough.

"Anyway at 14 months he started wanting to mount male dogs, it happened about 4 times "

Well, after the FIRST time, again I would not have let my entire male off lead with other entire males if I knew he had a tendency to mount them.  It is very distressing and submissive for another male dog to be mounted and they would be well within their rights to retaliate and you could have a fight on your hands.

"Anyway I started to keep him on the lead"

Good for the sake of other dogs.  A bit late though, for both his sake and the sake of other dogs.  And with bad socialisation in puppyhood, and now undersocialisation in adulthood...... dangerous combination.

"anyway a few people have said no problem let your dog off and he can have a play - which I have done and it has all been okay. "

This is very stupid of these people, if you have told them about your dog's background in full.  Personally, I would not be one of those people agreeing, because there is nothing more important to me than my dogs' temperaments and I wouldn't want them ruined for the sake of one encounter with your dog.  I'm also not sure if you should let him off in these situations - on the one hand, the people have been told about your dog and (stupidly) agreed to let their dogs have a play, so presumably they know the risks.  But if something happened, would they blame you?  Or themselves?  In my experience the OP is always to blame, so think about if you want to risk that.

"A couple of times he has gone to paw the dog (in the way he used to when trying to mount them), but they have just pulled away "

Ok, this is the point play ends.  Your dog is trying to become more rough, he is using a pawing motion which you identified as the precursor to his aggressive sexual behaviour, and the other dog has clearly signalled that it wants none of it and has moved away.  Play ends here.  Lead goes back on.  With the hope that maybe eventually your dog will learn that it is his aggressive sexual behaviour which causes this.  You should have put his lead on here.

"my dobe ran over and started to play but then he done the pawing, growling etc. the dog laid down on the floor and my dog then started to go for the dog."

Well, this is v disturbing - I'm assuming there wasn't enough time between the pawing and the aggression to get the lead on him?  The thing which is most worrying here is that the other dog is lying down on the floor in an appeasing position - his position is doggy body language for 'please, spare me, I'm just a weak and insignificant dog'.  Most dogs, even entire males, would then leave them alone - they have shown that they are not a threat and they have agreed that your dog is the leader.  Your dog, however, wasn't happy with that and STILL laid into them.

"I really don't think my dog will actually hurt the dog, this is the fifth time he has done this (first since castration) and he never actually bites"

Hey, there's a first time for everything and if I gave you a quid for every time I've heard someone say that, whose dogs have gone on to bite, you'd be a rich woman.

I'm sorry the man threatened to knock you out, that was uncalled for.  But apart from that, his reaction seems perfectly understandable under the circumstances.  I would have reacted in much the same way (without threatening you with physical violence).

"Also while he was on lead yesterday for a while, 3 dogs came bounding up to him barking etc. and he didn't even put his hackles up then.  I can't understand him!!! HELP!!!"

Again, this is classic for poor socialisation, an unpredictable dog whose responses you're not sure of.  Maybe with your next dog you'll do some research on socialisation. 

There is a slim chance that you can rectify things by working with your behaviourist on it.  (Is she a member of the APBC?)  I'd also suggest you get a book called "Fight! A Practical Guide to the Treatment of Dog-Dog Aggression' by Jean Donaldson.  Available online from Crosskeys books: www.crosskeysbooks.com

By the way, it's very rude for off lead dogs to come bounding up to another dog on lead.  Your dog is on lead for a reason - because he is aggressive.  I'd have given their owners a mouthful, if I were you.

Snip - This should never have been allowed to happen.  You say he 'always' played very rough - making it sound like this happened again and again.  It should never have been allowed to happen even once.  I doubt the other dogs appreciated this kind of behaviour, in which case your dog was bullying them.  Your dog was teaching them to be a victim and to be afraid of other dogs.   Your dog was also teaching itself that it was dominant amongst other dogs and that it was ok and fun to bully them.  It is possible that your dog learnt this behaviour from another dog he socialised with. - Snip

Do you believe that all dogs play should be suspended when it becomes rough? 

It depends I suppose what you mean by 'rough' - if:

You are confident that you know your dog well and that he always does this when he plays and it is 'normal' play behaviour for him.... AND

The other dog does not appear to be bothered by the 'roughness' and is still interested in playing and is not attempting to run away or appease, AND

The roughness does not get too intense, with the dogs breaking apart often to sniff or run around (not being fixed on each other)

then

Yes I think roughness is ok. 

But IF:

You know your dog well and you think there is any aggression to his roughness AND/OR

The other dog does not welcome the roughness and either runs away or lies down, ANd/OR:

The dogs are intent on each other, to the point of obsession and ignoring their surroundings

then

No, I think the roughness is not ok and should be stopped.

Thank you for clarifying your statement.  Certain breeds play with more aggression than others, I have terriers and feel that it is very important for them to do so for the lessons it teaches in self control - but as you quite rightly pointed out, it must be mutually welcomed by all participants. 

Also just another point to add, my vet informed me that the male hormones are not removed instantly from the system.  You are saying that they are.  Most people I have spoken to have told me that it can take up to six months, but it will not be instant. 

Actually, if you READ what I said - the hormones are removed instantly from the system (well, within 24 hrs), but for a reason which vets don't understand it takes between a few weeks and a few months for the male _behaviours_ to stop.  However, 5 months is more than 'a few' in my book, so I'd assume that the castration has taken effect.

I'd be surprised if the male hormones are stopped so soon - after all, it's been proven that castrated dogs can still sire litters quite some time following the surgery. I think the record (proven by DNA testing) is 11 months!

This is all by-the-by anyway because I apologise for misreading the original post - I thought it said he had been castrated 5 _months_ ago, not 5 weeks.  Not sure why I did that, but sorry.  At 5 wks, yes, I think it is probable there are still male hormones in his system.

Seems we all make mistakes by MIS-READING don't we!!!!!  Specially when something is very lengthy, as my post was and your reply also.

Yes my dog will play rough, and yes he will growl.  He has always made lots of noise when playing.  When he was younger this worried me because it sounded awful and I would often put him on the lead, but I was told by so many people that this was normal play behaviour.  He walks quite a bit with my friends Rottweiller and she is very vocal.  My dobe used to paw dogs to play when he was younger and I thought that the pawing was for attention.  He does this to me if we are playing ball in the garden, and he puts his ball into my lap and then will paw me to play.

The behaviourist I have actually does training classes also.  I am not sure whether he belongs to the apbc, but I know he comes very highly recommended and also you have to wait ages to get into one of his training classes. 

Also I thought that dogs were more aggressive on lead than off.  The amount of people I meet who tell me there dog is fine off lead but not on lead.  That is another point where I have mixed views about.

I am quite a novice at dog training, as this is only the second dog I have owned, but I do read and try to get advice as much as possible.  Obviously if my dog does not change then he will continue to be on lead. 

The incident the other day was totally my fault (as I said), I had let my dog off to play with his friend Lilly, also it was where I did not have total view.  The rest of his walk he had been on lead, and only let off to do a bit of training and play with his ball, and all of this was in the middle of a field where I can see in all directions, each time I see a dog in the distance I put him back on lead and we continue to walk, this is how it has been for the last few months.  He stays very close, as someone had said before dobermanns are "velcro" dogs and he is definitely this.

Thank you for your post.  NO my dog is not a Monster as you seem to define in your statement.  He was very well socialised as a pup, and the play he always had was pretty normal.  In fact when he was younger I hated all the noise from the play, and I used to put him on lead, but I was told "time and time again" that this was normal behaviour,  not only from my dog but also from other dogs.  Most of the dogs I meet (or who he has met) seem to play charging around and growling.  When I say growling I don't mean bearing his teeth, he is just very vocal.  Yesterday I went to see a behaviourist (who is very well respected in my area) he is an ex-police dog trainer, and he integrated my dog into his class.  No problems at all.  He is going to come on a walk with me.  When I say my dobe was fine until about 14 months, I don't mean he suddenly started attacking dogs.  If I had listened to you from day one, my dog would never have been able to play.  Most of the dogs I have ever met (specially puppies) always seem to play pretty rough.  Some dogs are alot more vocal when playing than others.  Also "Bluebell" states some dogs do play alot rougher than other dogs.

Also I am only 5 weeks into his castration not 5 months.  I have been very responsible with him over the last few months and we go out all the time and this is the first incident in about 3 months.

Oh if only I could have the perfect dog!!!  Well wouldn't we all like that!  Sorry to be a bit sarcastic but sometimes you people just seem to want to slaughter people on here.

Also when you read my post about the owner wanting to "knock me out" I wonder if that is why his lab was submissive may be he "knocks him out" when he does something that he doesn't like.

Hi - I did not mean to imply that your dog is a monster, because that is a judgemental label.  Even aggressive dogs are not 'monsters' - they are usually loving to their owners and families and often to strangers too.  So labelling a dog as a monster is not constructive and I wouldn't want you to put those words into my mouth.

Obviously again, not all noise coming from play is bad.  But play does have to be equal.  What happens a lot is that dogs learn to be bullies because they begin to do it as puppies - they chase another dog which does not want to play or be chased.  They might find it fun to jump on another dog and growl, when the other dog doesn't want to play and isn't enjoying it.  That is not constructive play and just teaches the dominant dog to be more dominant around other dogs. 

Also you seem to be taking back what you said:  "When I say growling I don't mean bearing his teeth, he is just very vocal" - now, I don't know about anyone else, but to me a growl is a growl.  There are play growls and there are aggressive growls, but both are still growls!!  So when you then say you don't mean 'bearing his teeth, he is just very vocal', I'm not sure what you mean.  Do you mean it wasn't a growl afterall and was barking?  Or it was a growl but not aggressive?  I'm a bit confused.

"Yesterday I went to see a behaviourist (who is very well respected in my area) he is an ex-police dog trainer, and he integrated my dog into his class.  No problems at all. "

First, make sure he is a member of the APBC (Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors): www.apbc.org.uk  

My parents have a friend who is an ex-police dog trainer and let's just say that I wouldn't send any dog of mine to see him.  The methods they use (or used when he was there) to train police dogs involve choke chains and are methods I would consider cruel.  They also involve checking/correcting a dog if it shows any aggression, which imo isn't the way to deal with aggression.  I'm not saying the guy you're seeing will use these methods, just that they are the methods my parents' friend uses and the methods I believe were standard in the UK when he was trained as a handler. 

Also, you are more likely to see the aggressive behaviour when your dog is off lead and comes across another dog, not on lead in a training class where hopefully he's focussed on you, in order to get rewards (toys or food, I hope).

I don't want to slaughter you and am sorry if I've come across like that.  In the same way that you are reasoning that perhaps that man with the lab 'knocks him out', I am reasoning that people with aggressive dogs don't usually like to accept that they have an aggressive dog.  I know of many dogs in our neighbourhood which are aggressive and have continued to be out, off lead and unmuzzled.  Many more dogs than necessary have been attacked and have damaged both physically and mentally due to their owner's just not wanting to accept that they have an aggressive dog.  Of course, also their dog is getting to practise being aggressive all this time, and that is just strengthening the behaviour, so by the time they come in for behavioural work and we see them, they are almost beyond help.  If their owners had not let them off lead and had come for help at the first sign of there being anything wrong, instead of being in denial about it, their dog would have had a much better chance of being helped. 

hi.i am new on here and without wanting to sound rude it seems to me that you put in a post because you need advice not to be pounced upon by people who always think they can "do it better!"i think you all upset that lady who needed advice which was worrying her.

I did say, even in my first post:  "I don't want you to feel that I'm having a go at you".

I did not give her all that info about puppy socialisation and what might have made things go wrong, just to show her that I can 'do it better', but so that if she gets another pup in future, she might try to avoid this happening again - if it actually was caused by a socialisation related reason.

Also, I'm not sure that she really was/is asking for help.  If all that I've said has been so worthless, and other people haven't suggested any type of action, then she has received no help.  What I think in fact she wanted was not help or 'advice' as you say, but reassurance that this was ok and normal - which of course some people have given her. :(

Thank you for that.  You have hit the nail right on the head I was totally deflated after the reply, I was looking for HELP, not basically to be told that  my dog should be kept on a lead at all times, I really want to know what it going on with him and why he suddenly changed around 14 months old.  I have been reading books etc, but advice is always very conflicting, one person says one thing another person another.  I had been told to gradually let my dog meet other male dogs again (this was the vet).  When I posted that I had told people about him when I was walking, and that they said let him play with their dog, I was told NO you shouldn't have done that and they were very stupid.  If he never gets integrated with males again then his behaviour will never change, because he will just never meet male dogs.

Yesterday I walked with my sister who has a male beagle, I kept my dog on lead, but they did occasionally sniff each other as we were walking in the park, mine obviously wanted to play (as he is only 20 months old) but I kept him on lead.  We played football when we got home.

As far as Im concerned this is fairly normal rough play behaviour from what you have told us. My lab can make a lot of noise teeth nashing etc when he is playing, especially with younger dogs and pups and whilst it can look scary to us humans there is no contact made and the only thing it does is sort out a bit of a pack order. Also 5 weeks after castration he will still have plenty of male hormones, it can take up to 6 months for them to go and well some dogs are just more inclined to be 'male' than others. Dispite having been done years ago I still have to watch out if there is a bitch in season <rolleyse>.  Keep working  on the training and taking care where and when you let him off lead and you will get there, you have had a bit of a nasty experience with a rather protective owner Sadly some automatically assume that guardign breeds are vicious. If he had control he would have been able to call his dog back and the incident would have ended.

I'm sorry Bluebell, but this:

"the dog laid down on the floor and my dog then started to go for the dog.  He shows his teeth, it all looks awful"

...does not sound like 'rough play behaviour'.  Play by its very definition is EQUAL and involving both dogs.  One dog doesn't 'play' with another one frozen into a position.  Just like a child can't play with another child if it is cowering and still. 

"it can take up to 6 months for them to go "

Male hormones are removed from the system almost immediately following castration.  Despite this, for reasons unknown to vets, male behaviours can take either a few days or a few months to decrease.  However, 5 months sounds like much longer than 'a few', so I would assume that the effects of castration were now in place.

"a rather protective owner"

What owner would not be protective?  Sorry, but if my dog was subjected to this experience I would be similarly outraged.  Dogs can be mentally affected permanently by experiences like this, I see them every day, and that's something no vet can fix. 

"If he had control he would have been able to call his dog back and the incident would have ended."

The original poster wrote that the lab came 'bounding round the corner' - perhaps the owner was still round the corner and didn't see there was a need to recall his dog.  Many owners don't see the need to recall their dogs when another dog and owner approach if the other dog is off lead also.  They assume that because the dog is off lead in a public place, unmuzzled, he will not be aggressive.  Generally doggy manners suggest that if another dog is on lead, you should recall your dog and put it on lead also.  If the other dog is off lead this is not so cut and dried.  You can't go round blaming others for their dogs being in the wrong place at the wrong time, if you have the aggressive dog!

i dont think the dobe is agressive at all. all dogs try to be top dog when playing and putting a paw on another dog is to try to pin them. once pinned they growl and show teeth but with head in the air so as to cause no harm. this is normal behaviour and happens from when pups can first walk. also a dog which lays down is sure to be jumped on as it is submitting. it doesnt sound as if the dobe has been any rougher than any other dog at play and i would continue to let him off but watch him at all times. the owner that threatened sounds like a typical bully who is afraid of dobes because  of their reputaion, i would avoid him (except for a hard stare) but dont be put off by him. im afraid there are people like this in every park!

Male dobes are renouned for being bolshy with other males ..Yes I know there are exceptions  and some people manage to keep two males together but most don't . My dobe plays with my terrier and the noise is horrific !   I've seen pictures of a friends dobe playing with another dobe and you'd swear there would be bloodshed , they definatley do play differently.

dggibo -I've seen other posts of yours and I know you've socialised him well and worked hard with him -He's 14 months and like a stroppy teenager ..all hormones and hairgel :D  He's not going to like everydog he meets , just as we don't like every person we meet -hopefully once his hormones start to settle so will he ;)  

I think to be honest, this is one of those cases where no-one can really see what the dog/s concerned are like and it needs someone there hands on really :)

Many dogs growl loads during play as we know, and that can be very normal and it can sound absolutely appalling to the ininitiated. However, I also agree that going on what you have said Dgibbo :)  (ie wanting to have a go at a dog whilst is is basically showing calming/appeasing behaviour ) is something  to be very wary of.

He has been castrated for 5 weeks, is that corrrect? Did he actually fight before that, or was it all noise?

Castration can sometimes cause a dog to lose confidence in his social abilities - testosterone gives this confidence and if it is taken away, he may be feeling it. Just wondered, I'm not against nor for castrating, preferring to judge more on individual circumstances :)

Lindsay
x

Talking with a Vet recently about castration and I was told that the male hormones take 3 months to leave the dog.However castration isn't always the answer if the dog has not been properly socialised.I can empathise with the other owners as they seemed terrified.As you are desperately trying to solve this problem,for which I commend you,but couldn't you find somewhere less crowded than the park to walk in? Also you should have your dog muzzled to be fair to others.

Hi Lindsay,

No he hasn't actually ever had a fight with a dog, just lots of noise, he has never ever bit a dog.  I am always very close to him, as I have posted he is always near me.  Even when he plays, he plays round by me.  Most times when smaller dogs have barked at him he runs to me.  Probably what I need to do is get a behaviourist to come on a walk with me, then may be I would get a better idea of what is going on with him, but at the moment I will continue to walk him on lead and only let him off where I know it is safe for him and other dogs.

I just love him to bits and I really want to sort this out.

Debbie
xx