The mother of a nine-year-old bitten by a childminder's dog is calling for registered minders to be banned from keeping the animals as pets

Goodness what a silly reaction to a very unfortunate incident.  They entered a room they were not invited into to. 
I can't see any need to ban minders from having dogs the same rules apply to them about keeping a dangerous dog as anyone else and any mother can choose to send her child to a minder without a dog the same as she may choose not to have a dog at home. 
To stop all childminders owning dogs would either remove, a possibly untenable number of, minders from the register or worse still force those that cannot give up to abandon many, many dogs to rescue.

My first childminder had a lovely crossbreed dog, which was before we had dogs ourselves.

An exhibitor in my breed is a Childminder, this allows her to work from home and have her dogs.

How stupid.  If the parent went somewhere she had no business going then they got what any other trespasser would expect.

Edit:
Oops I read it that the parent was bitten.  Why was the parent allowing the child to wander around someones house.

The local city council will only pass child minders that have dogs if the dogs are out of the house when the children are there & won't place foster children in homes were there are dogs :rolleyes:

moonmaiden,

My friend fosters and has GSD's. She has been a foster carer for many years so maybe before the law came about.
She only takes kids that are OK with dogs and her dogs are temperament tested.
She and her husband were even allowed to adopt a little girl they had fostered for 4 yrs.

MM is talking about her local council not a nationwide thing.

Hi Moonmaiden,

MMMM, Who told you they will not place foster children were there are dogs?
That is not true!!! If you have a dog they vet check the breed, if you have more than two they
have them vet checked.
I think it is dreadfull to stop childminders having dogs, All they need to do is have them
checked. A lot of children are already very cruel to animals, how are they supposed
to learn how to respect other living things. If the law keeps on, stopping discipline
stopping dogs. What kind of children do they want to rear?
another generation of undisciplined, cruel, uncaring, unruly teenagers.
"They are the first to complain"
Regards
Denese

This is a very local story since I live only a few miles from Brighton and I have to admit to being furious when I first heard the news report! Not just because the woman's suggestion is preposterous - as Isabel says parents have a CHOICE about where they wish to have their children cared for and if they don't want that choice to include households with dogs in them then I can't see a problem  - but also because the woman came across as another classic case of someone wanting media attention first and foremost! And what on earth was the mother of this child doing to allow it to wander around SOMEONE ELSE'S house unsupervised? Grrrr!

>what on earth was the mother of this child doing to allow it to wander around SOMEONE ELSE'S house unsupervised?

My thoughts exactly Roz!

Golly, when I was a Registered Childminder some twenty years ago I had a GSD, a BC and a pond!!!  What were these parents thinking of, leaving their children in such a dangerous situation and with someone who obviously had such little regard for their safety!?   With hindsight it was only with incredible luck that I never lost any of the kids - or that they never lost any body parts. Thank heavens the world has come to its senses at last.

Tongue now out of cheek,

Linda

Hmmm. I think that the childminder should have been absolutely certain that the dog was locked away - not just shut away. And the parent should have control over her child. Yet another of those 6 of one and half a dozen of another moments IMO.

That said - there is a childminder near us who walks the children home from school with the dog... I wonder how she would cope if something happened with one of the children and she had the dog to look after aswell....

It's one of those stories where you feel you want to know more about the facts for instance the dog may have been behind a door that a child could not open, the minder could not really be expected to predict that an adult would open a private room in which case the blame would be entirely with the mother however if there was carelessness involved in securing an unsafe dog from the children themselves then yes, the minder has a lot to answer for.
As to something happening to the children when out with the dog, well the minder would just have to crisis manage in the same way as she would have to as regards any other children if one was needing emergency attention.  Mothers choose to own dogs so if they choose a minder with a dog they can't expect her to work more miracles than they would themselves :)

I can see this from about 10 different ways. Yes the child shouldn't have been wondering around the house alone, but maybe he was looking for a bathroom? I know I wouldn't accompany a 9 year old to the bathroom! Then who knows what, if anything, the boy did to the dog to make it attack? I agree with Chloe, the dog should have been locked away. The mother seem's to be very angry, and maybe is being a bit harsh in her fight to ban childminders from having dog's, I mean where would it stop? I know my MIL's cat could do more damage than some dog's I know! Should we ban cat's? And then what about rabit's? They can be nasty thing's when they want to be!

If your child had just been attacked by a dog, wouldn't you be angry and harsh? I think in all dog attacks, no matter what the reason is behind it, the same thing applies, that dog has attacked a person, and in this case a child, maybe because I have a son I may see it a different way to people who don't have children, but if a dog attacked my son like that, even if my son had been 'asking for it' (which I could never see him doing!) I would still be angry, upset, livid, this woman is just being a mum.

Someone said that the mum seemed to be 'one of those that wanted the media attention', it may seem like that, but maybe she is warning others about this dog (whether he needs a warning or not is a different story), she may feel like she want's the whole world to know, so they can look out for the same situation, I think we have to remember that most things in the papers aren't strictly true, and that she has just been close to loosing her child.

I would have thought that now it has happened, and we know the boy is OK, the main thing would be what happens to this dog now?

All of this is just my opinion, I am just pointing out that there are two sides to every story, and with it being the press we have to rely on for the 'fact's', I wouldn't be too judemental!!

Actually, the media (or the mother) have twisted this story somewhat.

The true version of events is:

The child was 9 yrs old and had been expressly warned NOT to go and see the dog.  The dog was shut in another room in the house.  The situation was a meeting between the childminder and the mother, with a view to the childminder taking on the child.  So the mother was on the premises when it happened and the child was under the mother's care - not the childminder's.

The child knew which room the dog was in, because he had been told on the way in NOT to open the door.  The dog was not aggressive and has never bitten anyone before - he was shut away because he is a large breed dog and boisterous and you don't really want your boisterous dog jumping all over prospective clients...

The child wandered away during the meeting and disobeyed the instructions not to open the door.  He said afterwards that he wanted to give the dog a kiss - however he was seen lying on top of the dog with his whole body and with his arms around it. 

Now, I wonder how many dogs, on being awoken from sleep by a 9 yr old child lying on top of them, would NOT have bitten?

The photo in the Argus shows a slight scratch to the side of the child's face - NOT that he has been 'savaged'.

My children were looked after by a childminder who had a large dog. My daughter was scared of him at our first meeting so I was a bit concerned but agreed to give it a try. My daughter got over her fear and they loved the dog. He was fine. It is up to the person who interviews and inspects the childminder and premises to risk assess each situation, you cannot restrict everyones lives. I think that mother has an attack of the guilts and is blaming someone else to protect herself.

I am a registered childminder and have just recently become the owner of a puppy.  I have a written "pet policy" in place that states that the dog will be kept away from the children for most of the day (I have a dog gate between the kitchen and living area) and that any contact the children may have with the dog will be supervised by me.  I would be appalled if ofsted bring in regulations preventing us from keeping dogs.  Learning to respect and care for animals is very important for small children and the children I care for have learnt and understand the reasons why they cannot go and see the dog without me being there, perhaps unlike the boy in the story!!

If the child was told and shown which door not to open,and why, and had disobeyed the instruction, than it is the child's fault, and the child's mother for not supervising him, and not bringing him up to do what he was told! A 9 year old is perfectly capable of understanding that he should not jump on top of a sleeping dog when he was told to leave it alone, IMHO.

When it comes to kids and dogs, it always seems that the dogs get the blame, even if it is primarily the kids fault!  How would you like to be asleep and then find this strange 'animal' trying to do goodness knows what to you.  Would you try to defend yourself in the only way you know how?  A very unfortunate incident that has been blown out of all proportion.  The mother will probably try to get a major payout, either from the papers or insurance, as this country is fast catching up with the States on that score.  Hopefully this kid will have learnt his lesson and might just do what he's told occasionally.  

Hi Natalie1212,
I do agree with you but! it wouldn't be fair to ban all childminders from keeping dogs.
Some dogs are no where near as bad as some children. I would be a little concerned
that it had bitten so badly though! It may have been brought up with children,
But! how was it treated? The pets should just be vetted. Parents should also vet the
pets, at childminders, or anywhere eles they leave there child.
As we have had an unpleasant incident in the family, where a child was savaged by a dog.
So I do simpathize with the mom.
Regards
Denese 

Nobody wants their child bitten by a dog and for sure I can understand any parent being upset if this happens. And yes, I know I am a tad cynical about media attention but that's mainly because I work in that very business and I'm afraid I've seen too many examples of people rushing headlong into the arms of the local press. Who, of course, need to put a somewhat dramatic slant on any story to make it newsworthy. I suspect the whole truth of this matter is going to emerge rather more slowly but I'd be very disappointed to see a knee jerk reaction that might prevent people with dogs from working as childminders.

You're right about the media.  If you put everything into perspective and think back to reports over the last few years, children have been more at risk from the childminders themselves so it would silly to ban their dogs.

My opinion is that child minders should not have dogs.  I know I wouldnt want to put my trust in somebody elses dogs temperament, and risk my child when I was not there.

This is a classic scenario, a door was shut and a child opened it, its going to happen.  I think there could of been reservations about the dog anyhow, otherwise why was he locked away? and of course the child could not of been being watched very carefully even BEFORE he was being minded by this person (or his mother) as he was clearly allowed to roam around a strange house unattended.

Unfortunate events but I still say child minders should be dog free for absolute safety to other peoples children.
Dawn.

When my children have had childminders they have had dogs. If you can't trust a childminder to raise a dog that is good with children, how can you trust them to help you raise your child?

well said digger :)

This world has gone crazy.   Everything is focused around kids.   To my mind the kid deserved all he got. Going into a closed room without permission there is no excuse for.   Having said that, I hope he wasn't hurt too much but my sympathy lies with the childminder and the poor dog.  Just hope the childminder isn't forced to choose between her job and the dog.  And no I don't have kids, they're more trouble than they are worth, I'd rather have a houseful of dogs any day. 

Accidents happen Digger, this has proved it and its not the first time it has happened.
Dawn.

Denese, I might have mis-read your post but I didn't say all childminder's should be banned from having dogs, I am a mum and we are getting our first pup tomorrow, if I thought kids and dog's shouldn't mix we wouldn't be getting one! :)

Toady, what utter nonsence! I can not believe that any human would put the life and health of a child before a dog's, don't get me wrong, I love dog's just as much as the next person, but a human life should always be paramount to any other species. Kid's are naughty, it is what they do, and if someone says 'don't go in there' most would take the first chance they get to take a peek, it is a child's nature and curiosity.

Whose ever fault the attack was, the point is, is that a child has been bitten, albeit not too badly (thank God) but that dog has still attacked someone and is likely to do so again! I'm not saying for one minute he is a deathly dog, who needs pts at all, but the childminder should now make sure the dog is locked away, and that the dog is seen by a behavourist of some sort to try to deal with the problem.

The childminder in question probably won't have to choose between her job, or the dog, I know if my son had have been minded by her, and I knew her dog had bitten, I would have to find another childminder for my own piece of mind, I would be surprised if there are many parents that could carry on letting their kids go to her.

Natalie1212,

It was probly me misreading yours, I have had a lot of children,
150 approx plus my own 6 and now have six grandchildren.
I also have dogs, never had a problem, once one had a grumble,
after being kicked in the face a couple of time while laying down.
You can imagine my reaction, I asked them if they would like a kick
in there face, then looked them in the eye, and asked them why
were they where being so horrible. It sometimes works!
Children need to learn to respect animals. Nasty dogs should never
be near children anyway.
Regards
Denese

If the child was told, specifically, NOT to go into the room where the dog was kept, he deliberately ignored a direction.   At 9 years of age, he should know that if he is told not to do something, that he should do what he is told.   

It would appear that the childminder was doing everything correct, sad that the child has not been trained properly :(   Now, we have a child, allegedly "scarred for life" a childminder who's livelihood may be threatened, and a sleeping dog being blamed.    The mother must take as much blame for having a child that ignores directions as must the childminder for keeping a dog.

Margot

Well said Margot.

I agree with all of that Margot, but would think that it would have been a wise move to have had a bolt at the top of the door on the dog room, when your home is open to children who aren't your own??
I knew exactly what my child was thinking and what she could/couldn't be trusted to do, but other peoples' children.............?  It takes some time to develop that insight.

True - I think I would have done that.   Shame that we expect everyone to have pefectly-trained dogs though, but perfectly trained children?   We then start talking about "control freak" parents :(

Margot

Just had a thought.... what would happen if a child was attacked by a childminders cat or bitten by their rabbit or gerbils? would there be another outcry calling for the removal of these animals from child minders homes aswell?

Life is all about choices, we choose whether to place our children with child minders and we also choose which of those we use, just like we choose Drs and vets and tradesman. You name it we decide. So while there will be those that will not want to put their children with those that have dogs there will also be those that welcome the idea as their children will learn how to respect animals.
Now ok there maybe some irresponsible dog owners out there but at the same time there are irresponsible parents out there too ( as i think we have just seen ) Why should this person (child minder) be held responsible for the actions others in this case the mother and child. when they where told that a dog is in X room and not to enter.
If i told you not to go into an area beacuse there was say quicksand and you did and got stuck.... would i be to blame ??

The dog was shut away because, as I said, he is a large breed dog and very boisterous.  I don't think you really want your dog jumping up at prospective clients when they're interviewing you, do you?

I have a large breed and if I have people over, or even if something is delivered or the postman knocks, it's the crate for them.  And they most definitely are not aggressive.

Parents have a chose to have a nursery, or child minder,To have there child
brought up in as near to a home environment  as possible.
Foster homes are also homes, not residential units, the alternative is residential.
It has been proven that for a child to grow up in a home, equips them for there
future, to also build a home environment for there families.
Children brought up in residential units ect; have a very high rate of family
breakdowns. Also there children in care.
Pr-school nurserys are very good, but! there hours are only part-time.
Regards
Denese

Some things that should be considered really are - if you tell a child not to go into a room (especially one that has a dog/some other interesting thing in it), you are naturally going to arouse the curiousity of some children.  Although the child should have done as he was told, lots don't (Unfortunately) and that is where the adult is supposed to supervise!  What does this childminder do when she has a few children in the house - she should have MADE SURE the dog could not be touched as accidents will happen.

I am also fed up with hearing 'what did he/she (child) do to the dog to make it bite?'.  I know there have been some cases where children have done wicked things to an animal before being bitten, but more often a dog bites a child simply for doing things children do (eg going up to dog too quickly etc) and if a dog bites for these reasons, it should not be around children at all.

Nowhere did I read (and correct me if I am wrong) that the dog was asleep.  if it is so boisterous it has to be shut away I would be surprised if it was asleep. Also, I would have thought it important if the child was to be looked after there that he was introduced to the dog first of all.  My dog is VERY big and boisterous, but I only shut her away from visiting children for the first few minutes (if the child is happy with that), so then she calms down. Lots of things don't sound right to me about this.  I would not want my children to be around a large dog that needed to be shut away.

I am unsure whether childminders should be banned from having dogs - they have to take many other precautions (no ironing, etc) and as a dog is a living creature there is always some unpredicatability.

Janeandkai you are right life is about choices - maybe a childminder should choose whether they want to keep dogs before choosing that particular profession though?

Alexanders

>>maybe a childminder should choose ...

Are we talking generally here?
If so, why should they have to choose between a well mannered and behaved pet and a job?
Dogs and children having been living together happily for years. Ok so some dogs and children dont mix granted. But if you have a dog that loves children and you want to be a childminder then why not.
Each childminder is judged as an individual to assess their abilitys to do their job and provide a safe place for the children in their care and so i think should each pet ( whether dog cat etc) be assessed too rather than just saying if your a childminder you cant have pets.

"What does this childminder do when she has a few children in the house - she should have MADE SURE the dog could not be touched as accidents will happen."

Er, the child was there WITH HIS MOTHER!!!  Therefore his mother was responsible for his behaviour, not the child minder.  His mother should have known where he was at all times and not let him go wandering around someone else's house, especially if she knew there was somewhere he shouldn't go and he was the kind of child who might be curious about it!

We all know how difficult it is to tell someone else's children what to do and what not to do WHEN THEIR OWN MOTHER is there, with them, don't we? 

"Nowhere did I read (and correct me if I am wrong) that the dog was asleep. "

You are wrong - the dog was asleep in his bed.  It woke up to find a 9 year old lying on it with his arms around it.

" if it is so boisterous it has to be shut away I would be surprised if it was asleep."

Why??  Do boisterous dogs not sleep if they are shut away in an isolated part of the house, where their bed is, in a quiet, calm, place?

Sadly this is yet another instance of people jumping to conclusions without having all the facts.

i have to agree here, i have 2 children and they have been taught to respect other peoples properties and rules. if it had of happened to my child i would be questioning the child too as to why they went into the room and what they did to the dog. kids are great liars if they think they will get attention and sympathy. i also think it is parents responsability to educate their children on how to treat animals. too many times i have seen kids teasing and pushing and basically winding up dogs and cats. i live in a small road, there used to be a kitten that would sit on the wall watching the kids (about ten of them) play. the kids would constantly drag it down, wouldnt let it go etc.. when i caught them i told tham not to do it and explained why, they havnt done it since and they all respect me and love listening to my explanations of why u shouldnt do that to an animal. when i first got my puppy i had to explain why how she was feeling to and what their actions made her feel like. they are all well behaved children, just not educated properly. most parents usually say 'no dont do that' not explaining.

i must admit tho if she was going to mind children and she was going to keep the dog seperate because he was boisterous then it would of made more sense to securly lock the door, if she had of looked after the children and the same thing had of happened without the mother being there then all of the blame would lie on the childminder. even if u do educate kids accidents still happen. i think both parties are to blame here.

Hi, Alexanders,
you say "I am so fed up with hearing what did a child do to make the dog bit"
Some Children can be very cruel, especially if the parents allow it, many do not
stop children doing cruel thing to animals and other children. I have seen it many times!
My gandson was savagery bitten in the neck a 1mm. from his main vain and 1mm.
from his wind pipe, taking all his neck away acouple of months ago by a staff. that wasn't
provoked, he went to stroke it at a friends, he was only 4yrs.old,
he has a cross Staff of his own, and thought they were all the same. He had to
have Emergency surgery at the Birmingham Childrens hospital. So I am not saying it is
all children! I would never let any of my children be rude enough to enter someone's house,
or be rude enough to go around being nosey, But! parents do!  
Regards
Denese

I had no opinion on this to begin with but now having read everyone elses points of view I have decided to stick my oar in :). 

Firstly it's not the child's fault he was bitten.  Children are naturally inquisitive, that's how they learn, that's why they have to have supervision.  In this particular situation the mother was responsible.  However, there are things that don't add up to me.  The dog was asleep?  Now I might have an unusual dog but there is no way she would sleep through 1) and door bell/knock 2) strangers' voices in the house.  Even if this dog did sleep through these instances, opening a door to where my dog is asleep would wake her instantly so I find it hard to believe that the child woke this dog by hugging him or whatever.  What caused this dog to bite may never be really known but this makes the situation all the more precarious for other children in this house.  Why didn't the childminder put the dog where she would normally keep it when she is childminding.  That way the mother would have been able to assess the situation and decide if it was suitable for her child. If where the dog was is the normal place then obviously it is not adequate to keep the children safe and lets not forget this is the business she is in, looking after children. 

I am not saying that childminders shouldn't have dogs but personally I would have allowed my dog to check out the people who have entered his domain before shutting him away and I wonder why this didn't happen?

It's a pity because yet again this is an isolated case which could result in kneejerk reactions.

Whilst the child did not do as he was asked, it was the mother who did not keep an eye on her child. The child was just being a child and curious. If i was  in someone's house with my child I would ensure i knew where my child was  - not because of dogs necessarily, but because of ANY danger - swimming pools, bleach, etc. It is a parent's responsibility, at the end of the day.

Lindsay
x

Have read all posts with interest, agree with some and not others. I would just like to relate an incident that happened years ago between my male GSDXLab dog, and my best friends child (our god-daughter):
Luke was on his armchair and my friend and I were talking sitting on the settee opposite. Gemma (child) went over to Luke who was always incredibly child friendly and held his head each side with her little hands and planted what we thought was a kiss on top of his head. The next instant he screamed, leaped off his chair and straight on to my lap. Gemma had actually bitten him and her mouth was full of black hair. So it's not always a case of dog bites child, it happens the other way round too!

Chez_swa - that's exactly what I was trying to say.  I agree that the mother should have been aware of what her son was upto, but I feel equally that you should be aware of what other peoples children are upto in your own house.

I also think I stated that I know children can do wicked things to animals, BUT I think it is wrong to assume the child must have done something wrong to the dog for it to bite.  I still find it hard to believe that it was asleep - I would have thought it would have heard the door opening to the room if nothing else.

Onetwothree - I do not feel I have jumped to any conclusions and have tried to give my opinion based on what I have read.  However, you seem to KNOW that the dog was asleep when the boy laid on him - how can you possibly KNOW that unless you were in the room!

I agree totally that when a parent is there they should supervise their own children (who should be brought up with manners and respect for animals).  However, I would not hesitate to tell anyone in MY house not to enter a room if my dog was in there, parent present or not.

I am a childminder and have 3 dogs!(2 ridgebacks and a CKCS).I always make sure before I take any children on that the perents know I have dogs and specificaly that the children do not have allergies..When I am minding, my dogs are upstairs out of harms way! I do not allow any of the minded children to touch them whilst their parents are not present. Not because I do not trust my dogs as they love children but in this day and age you have to do everything to protect yourself and I owe it to my dogs aswell. All the parents love the dogs and have commented on their behaviour(sleep all day on the landing!) and wouldn't actually know I had them. They have all commented how calm their children have become when meeting other dogs in their daily lives, so it works both ways I suppose. All childminders are allowed dogs aslong as they are controlled and the children do not come in contact with the bowls etc.(Though when I was registered in Edinburgh you weren't registered if you had "certain breeds"). The mother of the nine year old boy didn't have to choose that particular minder it was her choice as she obviously new about the dog before visited. Surely the parents are still responssible for controling their child and not to go wandering off where he , or shouldn't as really they were still guest in the minders house . It would be interesting to hear about what the other parents who use think?