hi everyone
i just recieved my hipscores from the b.v.a and its shocking came back at 29 i was expecting under 10!!
my vet did tell me that he thought the hips were great yet its come back a shocker and he has advised me to appeal,i just wanted to ask folks opinions
on appealling to the b.v.a ?is it worth it or am i clutching at straws here i dont know
but i sure am crushed at the results
this is how it came back very shocking <her parents and gt gp/ggp all have exellent score of under the breed average.
norberg angle 6.5
subluxation 4.4
cranial acetablar edge 3.3
dorsal acetabular edge 0.0
cranial effective acetablar rim 1.1
femoral head neck exostosis 1.1...total 15/14 ..29
could anyone explain what this means in english! my vet tried to explain but in his terms!!
i really dont know what i should do or should i just go with it i cant help being crushed... but so is life.

What breed Hanah ?

How many X rays for HD does your vet submit a week ?

Are the X rays clear/tilted ?-there should be a note on the score sheet about this

When I get my dogs done I use a really excellent vet who does in the region of 20 + scoring X rays a week over the year. she is rarely more than one point out on the scores. she uses a sling rather than the table. Did your vet show you where the scores are are allocated to ?

One good point is that the scores are even on both hips rather than high on one & low on the other

Hi Moonmaiden,

Could you tell me what area the vet is in that you use for Hip Scoring your dogs?

I want to get my bitches scored but I don't know an experienced vet to go to. I've also been told of dogs that have had bad scores due to x-rays done by inexperienced vets. I am willing to travel to a vet who 'knows what they are doing'.

Bracken.

Norton North Yorkshire

I used the vet at Norton nrth Yorks and i must say it is an excellent surgery, we had to travel a little way to it but i decided to use the vets there rather than my own vet who is only 5 mins away as she had come very highly recommended and i will certainly use her in the future for any other dogs that need to be scored and the other nice thing is that the dogs aren't stuck at the vets all day you can pick them up in a couple of hours.

Jill is lovely with the dogs too Did you get coffee & biscuits :D I send so many people because of the excellent X rays & Jill's expertize I get choccy biscuits if I go with any of my dogs lol

Poor you Hanah, I currently awaiting a hipscore myself, and my vet also thought it would be under 10 (though he did say don't quote him!). Now I'm worried. I did go to a recommended vet, who I know does a few hip x-rays. If you do appeal, can you let me know the outcome?

I would say from the Olson Norberg angle that your vet possibly had the dog twisted slightly. Could be wrong but that's what it sounds like to me.

The problem now is that you can only appeal and resubmit the same plates. New plates will not be accepted! The difference is unlikely to be great because these people are the experts. They cannot make allowances for a poor plate, they are only allowed to score what they see not what they think it might be.

Sorry but there it is. John

To be honest, very few vets are correct in their assessments of hips. Some will say the hips are fine and you get a poor score and others will tell you not to bother sending the plates in as the hip is so bad and it comes back as a 1/1. To be honest it is not really worth having them looked at again, it is not just a matter of opinion they do use instruments to measure, but as John said the can only look at the plates sent to them. Think you could not put more than 10% down to the film, what do you think John. What breed do you have, it is the amount over the BMS that matters, were you hoping to use him for breeding?

EDIT: my sister breed a litter of Newfies and both parents were under 10 and so were the g. parents and gg. parents but one of the litter had a score over 60. It can and does happen, so if your dogs ancestors back several generations had low scores then it may be just one of those things, but poor hips even several generations back can reappear and take you by surprise.

I'm going out on a limb here Jackie. A friend in Goldens had plates done a few months ago and the hips were terrible! A real disaster area! She never submitted the plates because she could not believe they were that bad. She went to another vet, a specialist in the field and showed the plates to her. Her comment was that the plate would be around 45 but that the dog was twisted, the back end was over. She took a plate and it came back a 6!!!! The plate is all important and so often the vets won't "Waste my time on that." but leave it up to the nurse. It's a sad fact but so many really do not understand the importance of the plate. Just think about a dog who's body is tilted and then trying to measure an angle. It WILL be wrong, no chance of being right.

Regards, John

Sure you are correct John, may be there should be a list of acceptable vets as there is in the eye testing, other wise there is no point, or perhaps the board should return bad plates asking for them to be done again, should soon improve the care taken.

I would imagine some of the very unbalanced scores (high one side) may also be due to this, I remember Malcolm Willis saying that tilting will load one side and improve the other by a similar amount.

Some scores are very uneven I had a dog score 24:4=28 & it was clear that one hip had a bad socket & hence the uneveness He had actually been stood on by his mother on that side at 10 days & this could have caused the damage. He was never bred from Even though his score was below the mean average of his breed at that time(not a gsd)

Hanah,
I do feel for you. Some years ago I bought a lovely little bitch who I was hoping to breed from, I reacted the same as you, but her scores came back as 49!! Her parents both scored 8 each. Obviously I got her spayed and myself and her breeder (who is a great friend of mine) agreed that we should find her a different home where her life would be a little less hectic. I too was totally gutted.

I do agree with what John says though, appealing to the BVA does seem to be a bit of a fruitless excercise. If only your dog has been correctly positioned... But depending on the breed 29 may not be a horrendous score, try and find out some more info before you totally despair.
Big hug for you
Amanda

thankyou all
the breed is sibe husky and i cant help being soo gutted
i also worry about if i should continue to work her or not
but i really dont know how bad this is could someone explain what appears to be wrong it doesnt say tilted on the results i got back...thanks for the hugs :)
i think i need them.
i would still be greatful for any more advice especially about what these results mean in terms of her hips are they still good or fair or poor ?? how bad is it
gee life is so unfair

There is a deatailed leaflet produced by the BVA called The BVA/KC Scoring Scheme for control of hip dysplasia: Interpretaion of Criteria.

If ypou read it bit by bit and look at the accompanying pictures you will understand exactly how each aspect is scored, and what the difference between a 0, 1, 2 , 6 on any feature actually man and look like.

I have scanned the whole article (about 12 pages) and can send to you if you email me (click on my name), but you csan get copies free from the BVA.

It is a little hard going, but very clear.

hiya thanks yes i just downloaded it,will have a good read and report back

Hannah,

What is your breed?Then look at your breed average.

Briony :-)

I'm getting worried now. I have my Lab booked in for her hip score x ray in 10 days time. I am going to my usual vets, one of whom always does these x rays and has been doing for some years. Apart from being 100% happy with the practice in every way over 20 years, I have no actual knowledge of their ability to achieve the best plates. Should I find a specialist vet to do it ? - could I cancel and ethically go to and be accepted by another vet now anyway? Please advise.

I would suggest you have a chat with the vet about the x rays & also ask if you can wait for her to be x rayed then take her home rather than leaving her there all day & collect her. There is no reason for dogs to stay all day at the vets for x rays it is not like an operation.

I would ask to see the X ray plates as soon as they are developed too Pity you are not near Jill's surgery as she will not send off any plates she is not 100 % happy with-the quality of the X ray not the dogs hips-& she is very knowledgeable about HD & scoring-making a good cup of coffee too:D

Does she make a good cuppa tea for those who don't like coffee? ;)

If you travel far enough might even get a biccy or two lol

Moonmaiden,

Could you send me all the details of this vet practice please? I have 2 dogs I want X-rayed, like John's friend I had my own practice do one of my dogs and the plate was terrible, Mia was twisted and they thought this was perfectly ok to send. Also a rough idea of costs and whether the vet sedates or anaethetises.

My email is Christine@jagerreh.fsnet.co.uk.

Thanks.

Telephone number is 01653697299 the practise is in Norton North Yorks-Called Applegarth

As to costs etc you should ask them as they would vary dog to dog I'm sure they anaethetise but you take your dog & wait & will be shown the plates & then take your dog home You don't have to leave the dog in the morning etc

Give them a ring There is another thread under need a good vet I think

I had my LAb bitch hip scored- 'good parents' (I found out eventually the Dam had been done after Pups born I had been too trusting of the papers given to me for this bitch- if I were a paranoid or suspicious type I would wonder if the breeding record is accurate) scored 56- Needless to say I have had her spayed as I did not want any accidents- I have a male dog too, but he must be a bit 'queer' as he has been out with  bitches in season and not taken more than a passing glance as their owners are having 40 fits!! ( I must say that this happens mostly just as its getting dark and the bitches owners do not expect to see anyone in the park at that time)

I would never dream of taking an in season bitch (and I have five) to the park or anywhere of lead dogs had any business being.  When in season it is strictly on lead walks around the streets.

Hi Moonmaiden i think we'll all be travelling to yorkshire now to visit your vet, how much did it cost you for your hip scores?  Oh yes does anyone know what the average mean score is for a bullmastiff?

Warm regards Susan

I haven't had a dog scored for quite a while & the BVA fees have gone up several times since then, give Jill a ring & she will be able to tell you personally

Try this link for the mean & median scores upto March 2005 under hip scheme & then there's a link to the PDF doc on the link with all breeds on it

The BVA charge about £25 for the paperwork - the hip score and sedation/GA costs about £70-150, depending on where you go.

Thanks Moonmaiden and onesworth, when i go on the bva means score link it's not letting me look it's just saying done and a little sqaure comes up in the corner.

Susan

Bullmastiff latest BMS is 27 median is 22

You might need to download a PDF viewer But Gillian has given you the info ;)

Thanks Satincollie, whats a PDF viewer and where do you download one of those Moonmaiden?
It done the same thing when i was trying to download a petplan claim form.  I'm being a blonde bimbo do them scores mean that they can be twenty seven for both hips thats the highest score allowed.

Warm regards Susan

Have you tried pressing the maximise button!  I know it sounds daft but my computer at work wasn't bringing up the screens because someone had pressed minize.  God I felt so stupid when the computer bloke came out :d

You can download one from Adobe. However it is quite a large file (hopefully you are on broadband).

27 is the BMS (Breed Mean Score). This is where all the scores have been added up and divided by the number of dogs scored. 22 is the median, which looks at all the dogs that have been scored and takes the middle value.

HTH :)

Median = most common score if you did a graph.

The score is for the two hips added together so 22 might be 11/11 or 10/12 or what have you.

Thanks everyone it's sinking in now, thanks also ice cosmos i do need adobe.

Warmest regards Susan

The radiologist we went to does not anesthetize the dog is handled by its owner and walks away afterwards.  Do all you vets anesthetize?  Our hip score came back pretty good.

How did I miss all this thread??

I took Freya up to Cambridge University Veterinary Hospital yesterday. We got up there for 1.45, filled in the forms, then Freya and I went round to see the nurse, who weighed her, checked her heart and then, after I had signed the consent form, gave her the 3-mix sedative. We then went back into the main waiting room for about 15 mins,during which time Freya got dopier and dopier. When the radiographer came
to take her through, she just about managed to stagger through :o) . Less than 15 minutes later, she was back, still fairly zonked out, but managing a tail wag. 5 mins later, the vet came out, checked her over again - yes she could stagger again, and we went back in to look at the plates, which, luckily for us, look quite good. He showed us the angulation that they look for, she looks well within the mean, and he thinks they will come back with good scores - he isn't on the panel and gives no guarantees, but they are soo experienced in setting the dogs right so that they can get the right plates, and of course their equipment is top of the range, so again, you are getting a better "bite at the cherry" if you like. The fee for sending the plates to the BVA is £28, and the Cambridge Vet Hospital charge is £88.

She trotted out to the car, jumped back into the crate, and by the time we got home she was ready for a hurtle around the garden with the other girls!

Margot

Hi echo did you go the southampton (not sure of her name)

Roni

Hi starryeyes if you want the details for the Southampton lady, I can PM you them if you like.

Free PDF viewer download

Hi Moonmaiden, thanks very much, the thing about champdogs is it's not the forum what makes it excellent it's the people, thank you.

Warm regards Susan

I had my bitch hip scored in August, BVA for hips and Elbows is £55.00. Vet fees were £160ish pounds in total. My bitch was sedated, I used a vet in Hey-on-Wye who was very very good. I hear the practice in Preston with Mark Lingard is very good and he is very accurate. My bitch scored a total of 10 with clear elbows, so I was pleased with that.

Moonmaiden recommended Jill at Newton to us a few years back we have made the 400 round trip journey up there for all our dog, it was worth the time and money, it has taken just over 4 weeks to get the results back, it is better to use someone that you have complete confidence in as you only get one bite of the cherry. I still worried until we got the results back, only one piont out from what we had been told.

Lynn

I'll be going there as soon as Nina is old enough.

Warm regards Susan