I've read the many posts on here about HD. Many to do with shepherds, and I am always interested, as I had a GSD with severe HD, now passed, bless her.

During the discussions, the point is raised that you should always buy pups from health tested parents with below average hip scores. Obviously,I agree totally. However, what is rarely mentioned is that this is no guarantee that your pup will be free of HD. It is considered that from good hip scored parents, some 25% of pups on average will have HD. There are no guarantees despite the best breeding you can get.
Secondly, it seems rarely mentioned that hip replacement is a good option in the majority of HD cases, where the dogs quality of life has deteriorated. I become concerned that the general approach seems to be when the hips get too bad, euthanasia is the answer. My bitch had both hips replaced, and never looked back. These days insurance covers so much, and the medical care a dog can get if the owner can pay for it is on a par as that available to us, why don't more people consider this option? Many years ago this was the only answer, but no so anymore.

Kat

Not every one is of the same mind :)  You consider it a good option but my personal choice would be not to.

My personal thoughts on this is - if the dog is in otherwise good health, fits the candidate profile for surgery, the only other option is euthanasia, surgeons were happy to operate, then yes, I would definitely consider a hip replacement.

I've heard some successful stories with this type of surgery.  Having had my boy sail through a tricky spinal operation at 10 years old; recover in a remarkably quick period of time and is now back to his normal cheeky self with no pain, I wouldn't hesitate to go for surgery if there was a chance it would give my dog a longer, happier pain free life when the only other option is to PTS an otherwise perfectly healthy dog.   

The way I have undertsood it is that a hip replacement is only a suitable option for a young dog. My dog was 6 when he was hip scored and we had not noticed any symptoms at that time -he scored 48/48 and soon afterwards started having major problems. I am lucky enough that both my vets are bone specialists (they are referral vets that take cases from quite far away) but neither of them has considered my dog to be a suitable candidate for surgery. I'd imagine he's quite a common case -HD not discovered until after a few years when it was too late for surgery due to the damage already done.

Certainly, the dog would need to be in good health other than the hips. Isabel, I am really curious as to why you wouldn't consider it an option?

Goldmali - my girl was 5 yrs when she had the first done, and 6 when she had the other done. Generally speaking the damage done is generally irrelevant unless it is excruciatingly extreme, since  a new socket is cemented in, and the head of the femur is removed totally. Granted not all dogs are candidates, but I believe that the majority are. Quite often, only one needs to be done anyway and this supports and relieves the burden on the other. The orthopaedic specialist I went to (and who specialises in hip replacement surgery) is the chief scrutineer for the BVA hip scoring scheme, Gary Clayton-Jones. Dogs are better off having the surgery done when they are older, since the implant has a considered shelf life of 7years. Unless it is extreme, they will usually wait until the dog is older to do it.

For those who wouldn't consider it for an otherwise healthy dog - why?

Kat

I would think 48/48 is extreme as the highest score is 53/53, so it was near the top end of the scale for HD. 

I do know of a healthy 14 year old dog that had a sucessful hip replacement in the US.  I really don't understand why age should be a factor when the dog is older unless there are other health problems to consider or if life expectancy is less than the recovery time.

I would not be happy putting them through a very painful operation just because it is feasable.  Also orthopaedic surgery carries quite a high infection risk that is very difficult to deal with if it does occur.  Therefore I just feel, that personally, I would rather take the pain than my dog and opt for euthanasia.  This is not to say you are wrong to opt for a different course of action I say this only in response to your comments about why more people don't consider a replacement, maybe they have and just feel as I do :)

Whenever I reply to a posting asking about hip displaysia I always give examples which are taken from my own dogs, including the puppy from a 0 - 0 = 0 bitch mated to a 2 - 2 =4 dog who scored 11 - 18 = 29 to illustrate that while a caring and responsible breeder will breed from the lowest hips available it doesn't mean the puppy owner can guarantee their pup will have low hips.

As to hip replacement, if one of mine had a 48 - 48 score I would not be able to afford to have the operation done, and some insurance policies do exclude such hip operations. Recently in my vet I met a local man whose dog did have bad hips, it was decided to operate on them individually, and the insurance company paid towards the cost. When he went to renew his policy he found there was an exclusion clause stating the company would not pay towards having the second hip done. He could not afford to get the second hip done, but luckily our vet is a kind chap and did the op anyway and arranged a payment scheme for the bloke to pay the money owed for the operation.

Hi,

If you got your dog hipscored after 2yrs say eg 5yrs of age would you be expecting a higher score than if you had the same dog done at 12 months?

Obviously as the dog gets older and natural wear and tear would surely affect scoring curious ?

Briony :-)

Two littermates were scored from one of my girls, the bitch in Australia(they use the same scoring scheme) scored a Total of 7 at 12 to 18 months of age. 

Her brother wasn't scored until he was 4 1/2 years old and scored an almost identical score inall aspects with just one point higher with a total of 8.

Bad hips will get worse over time and get a much worse score, basically good hips should not change much with age.

I have my 5 year old hipscored 3 months ago.  She is like a cat, she will be sat or stood one second and the next she will be above your head, no effort, nothing she just springs!  She has done her springing act from 3 months of age.  Had muscles of steel at 10 months of age :d

Her sister was scored and was around the breed average a couple of years ago (about 16).  My girls score came back and she scored 6/4 total 10.  So I think that if they've got good hips at 12 months they'll have good hips at 5,6, or whenever.  I feel this so much so that I'm seriously thinking of hip scoring my almost 12 year old who I'm thinking of having spayed and also a couple of bumps checked out.  I know that of course some arthritis will be there but as she's still springing out of boats and retrieving in cold water at almost 12 it will be interesting to see how her score turns out too!  Could be sky high, but I think it's worth the risk.  A few of her pups have been scored now and they range from 19 to around the 10 mark and her grandchildren and great grandchildren are scoring lower, so fingers crossed that she'll have a low score too!

Hi,
What breed do you have ? and do any of you think different breeds mabe affecting differently and at different times possibly?

Seems strange that we could get our dogs hips xrayed at 6 months (not scored) and on this basis look at the hips to see if they are generally good or bad and on this basis some people move there older puppies on obviously not all .

Xraying at this young age( before 12 months for scoring) is it reasonably reliable indication? when using a vet that you would trust to do the hipscore for you later?or is there too many cases where hips look bad on xray at 6 months but score at 12 months plus is good.

Hope you understand what im mean ?

Briony :-)

Hi ,

What im trying to find out is xraying a pup at 6 month using a good vet that is well used to knowing what is required to take good plates good reliable indication at what hip status whether good ,bad or fair might be like at 12 months for scoring or is there still too many grey areas?

Briony

Hi Briony,

You may wish to have a read of the OFA site:

OFA - Prelims

This discusses the accuracy of hip scores at varying ages. For 6 months old the reliability of a normal hip score was 89.6% and at 12 months the reliability was 93.8%. So it would appear that the prelims done at 6 months were fairly accurate.

However I personally wouldn't have such a young pup put under a GA unnecessarily. My dog had to have two before he was 9 1/2 weeks old and I was incredibly worried about him having the GAs at that age (as this is a breed that can have problems). I certainly wouldn't have it done as a routine procedure.

HTH :)

Hi,

Thanks for the info never had a puppy done at 6 months all mine have been doene at 12 months.I was just interested whether what the xrays found at 6 months could give ypou a reasonable indication or pointers that what the xray show at 6 months was good,fair or bad before you got them scored at 12 months.

Giving an anaethestic at 6 months I would not have a problem with ,with a dog that was otherwise fit and in sound condition with no previous medical complaints/conditions that could affect anaethetic just my opinion ;-)
Subject of HD ,hipscoring the whole subject is facinating with no definate answers :-)

Briony :-)

That's how I used to feel about anaesthetics, until one of mine died from unsuspected (and untestable-for) anaesthetic allergy.

Hi Jeanjeanie,

There is always going to be an element of risk,when making a decision it would be down to my dogs condition,vet ,myself *at the time*.I know also of friends dogs that have died under GA but I also know plenty that don't only yourself can make the decision at the time  for your dog and each dog is different.

Briony :-)

In the UK there is no chance of a prelim, you can only have a dog scored the once at over 12 months.

Hi Brainless,

There seems to be alot of people from various breeds that get normal xrays done at a vets at 6 months and with there own vet decide whether they are ok looking or bad they generally use a vet they would use to take a hipscore xrays at 12 months.My question being can you really tell bad hips on xray at 6 months ?Severe cases probably yes.

Briony

As x-rays involve a general anaesthetic which carries risks, I wouldn't recommend they're done unless it's absolutely necessary.

Hi,

I realise that most things carry a risk im just intereseted :-)

One of my Goldens has now had 9 full generals never been a problem , modern
general anaethetics these days are excellent the same as humans but obviously each time you have one there is always a *very small*risk attached.
The risk factors increases with condition general health,fitness,age possibly certain breeds ,  allergies etc same as humans.

Briony :-)

i had flynn xrayed at 8months because i thought hed put his backout,as it happened his hips were not good ,although he displayed non of the "classic" signs.
as a result he was rested & then built up very guardually,lead walking,hydrotherpy etc,untill he was xrayed again at 12months.
they werent any better,but not any worse either & as a result of strong muscle bulid up he is as sound as anything & moves well with drive & power.
now he swims once a week & otherwise is treated normally,no exercise restrictions & hes as sound as anything. he has a score of 21-21=48,the rest of his litter are all well under average as are his parents & grandparents

Hi,

Its very interesting isn't it,because there are dogs out there despite high scores
are perfectly sound and others with high scores that are suffering from the affects.I have a bitch that both parents are well below average and in the pedigree behind is all average to well below in 5 generations ,despite careful raising she manage to throw a high score and you would never know as she as sound as a pound on the move with excellent drive with good muscles not being exercised or raised any differently from the rest.So obviously a gene has been thrown forward from perhaps beyond 5th generations?
So generally speaking if you got your puppy xrayed at say 6 months fom a vet who knew how to position well and take good xrays you would get a pretty good idea whether hip development was looking ok or bad,nothing in between as you need to get them scored at 12 months to see exactly anything else.In other words its giving us a possible idea what kind of score range we might be looking at.
Does anybody here get their pupys hips xrayes before doing a BVA hipscore at 12 months ?

Briony :-)
Briony

Slightly off the theme but this is something I'd consider regarding hip x-rays.

I don't get an x-ray done before hand because I know that however bad the score I would send the plates anyway. If you and other owners/breeders only send good plates then the overall picture of the breeds hip status is false and could eliminate over time some potentially good dogs and bitches from the breeding gene pool.

When I got my dog x-rayed recently I was asked if I still wanted to send the plates as the vet thought the score would be in 20 plus region, not good for my breed at all. I said then I would send them regardless and when they came back he is only 2 points above the breed average! Only the panelists who measure the hips can tell for sure, so it is important to send you dogs x-ray plates regardless.

One thing I'd be more likely to ask anyone, with a litter of pups I was interested in would be "Have you hip scored the mother and used a stud dog which is hip scored?" If the answer to either is no, then I have to ask myself why not? Was the potential score suggested by the vet doing the x-ray so horrible the breeder of the puppies thought they'd rather not know and just breed anyway? In which case why would I want to buy a puppy from somebody who was happy to fool themselves? If the score was bad then OK there is nothing you can do about it but at least you knew, which is better than pretending you do not need to hip score or do any other health test.

The vet who does my Hip X rays assumes because you want them done under the scheme before seeing them that you want them sent off, when she did my Bretty who had severe asymptomatic HD(34:34=68 total)she never even suggested not sending them off

Hi,
All my dogs are hipscored at 12 months and I submit each dog regardless.
If I ever got a puppy xrayed at 6 months old I would still go onto get it a Bva hipscore done and said in the xrays.
I fully support BVA schemes and unless people sbumit the every dogs xrays we will end  breed averages that are way out.
I was just interested what the xrays show or whether at 6 months the hips would still be too immature to say good ,fair or bad and whether if you had a pup at 6 months xrayed and that xray look like the hips looked bad it would be interesting when BVA hip score was done whether it was indeed bad or at 12 month the hip gave a reasonble score and vice versa.
I actually use the same vet as Moon maiden because she is so good :-)

Briony :-)

Hi ,

I was more thinking whether any good careful breeders that had already had  parents hipscored which was acceptable score for breeding had a litter and the breeder kept one back forthemselves to show or ,obedience etc whether they had that one particular pup they kept xrayed at eg 6 months to see what the hips looked like then went on BVA  hipscore at 12 months plus was it what they expected?

Briony :-)

Hi Polly,

I'm talking about xraying a single puppy that you either bred yourselves or brought in from another affix at around 6 months, before doing a BVA score at 12 months ,yes from parents that were themselves hipscored and well bred and send in xrays done at 12 months no matter what.
I don't understand your last paragraph in relation to my question :-)

Briony :-)

I can't really see the benefit of putting a puppy through a GA just for a look see when 6 months down the line a proper hip score can be done. I would however do it if i suspected a puppy had a problem and extra care about exercise needed to be taken.JMHO

Hi,

I would agree with you ,just interested in the results and what people thought that had it done.I've always had mine hipscored at 12 months.
Its interesting that OFA do prelims .

The whole subject is facinating and we don't have all the answers with genetics
and HD.
When I was younger our Newfoundland was the 1st dog in this country to have The Triple Pelvic Osteotomy performed by Mr John Houlton at Cambridge University at 9 months old, 18 yrs ago the operation was videoed to show vets here and abroad.He had both hips done yes it was a sucess but not without alot of nursing care and hard work think carefully before putting any of my dogs through such an op

Briony :-)

OFA do prelims as you can't have the proper evaluation until over two years of age, adn you might well want to use a male for breeding before that age, or even in some breeds a bitch.  The negative result of this being allowed is that there is serious preslection and those scoring badly won't be put through the official scheme where everyone can see the results..

The thing to remember with OFA as well is they dont do the full hipscoring till 2 years old and so it may well be more than curiosity which leads them to do preliminary x-rays as it is so much longer to wait.

Briony,

I've had a roughly 6 month pup x-rayed in this way. A lab bitch that I bred myself from well below breed average scored parents. Her movement caused me some concern, and because I train gundogs I would be putting a reasonable level of strain and pressure on her from training between 6 months to a year I decided to get her x-rayed to see if she had a problem.

The x rays looked fine, so I was able to continue with her training without any further concern. Funnily enough, the strange movement  never seems so bad once you know the hips are OK! I had a scored again when she was old enough at a score of 6-4.

I'd suggest that it is an option worth considering if you have some significant doubts about the pup. If the x-ray looks awful you can make decisions earlier about the future treatment, training and exercise etc.

I guess the down-side is that I would not have been very inclined to have it done again if they had been really awful. Not because I would be trying to hide anything, but merely because their would be no real benefit to myself or the dog to justify putting her through another anaesthetic plus the extra expense. However, this is obviously a detriment to the breed records.  

I am certainly not aware of anyone in my breed specifically and any of my freinds and aquaintances in other breeds doing such a thing. 

The only time would be if they thought it necesary for the dogs health because they thought it was dysplastic, at a cost of around £150 (I pais £170 last January) to have it done to second guess the scrutineers when your average vet can be so wrong with the opinion seems a costly and pointless excersise.

I have a friend whose dog was scored years ago and vet thought they should not bother submitting the plates and yet he came back with an excellent score for the breed of 7.  I have also known owners be told hips looked good yet they were disappoiinted with the results being somewhat higher than the breed mean.

Hi,

Thanks for those replies intersting reading other people views.

I've never had a puppy xrayed at 6 months just had then hipscored at 12 months using BVA scheme which I'm happy with and believe all plates should be submitted.

Briony :-)

Hi,

What are your thoughts to when people ask for a hipscore using BVA Sheme that the vet must send plates to be scored regardless whether he/she thinks they are good or not this would then give us a much better picture of the true average of the breeds surely people would not object to this if its for the good of the breeds?

Briony :-)

Unfortunately some people won't send them off.  I actually think that it's disgusting for people to do this, why spend all that money and then not send the films off for scoring?  If you do it, bad or good, the films should be sent.  If the vet has taken bad films then they will be returned by the BVA for the vet to re-do them!

Hi,

So you would need some kind of system in place that if you agreed for a hipscore to be done by the BVA  a form could be filled in using dogs reg micro chip /tatoo and plates sent in ,then random checks carried out and catch those vets that don't comply or something similar bit like MOT  for a car.
If you have nothing to hide there shouldn't be a problem anyone have different views or ideas??

Briony :-)

After reading these posts, i am more concerned about my dog, I have a post going under cruciate ligament injury, my dog is a 2 year old male staff, Frankie. He displayed signs of this injury hoppinh along on one back leg, took him to a vet and had a hip xray, he said the hips were ok it must be a cruciate injury, refered to a specialist who said it was a cruciate and would need an op, in the meantime took frankie to hydro, 5 times, seemed ok. Then he seems to have gone lame in both legs, dragging them, struggling to stand, not wanting to walk much, i'm taking him back to the vets today, but it seems to me to be more like HD than a cruciate!!

Hi,

Maybe the other leg has had to compensate for the ist leg and taking most of the strain to relieve the 1st leg .I n the 2 years you had your dog has he ever injured himself say eg ran too fast round a corner or slipped or jumped over something or knocked his legs or hips do you think in any way which may have caused an injury?
Was the parents of your dog hipscored  do yoy know ,I wwould also speak to your breeder just to let her know they maybe able to offer advice.

Briony :-)

Good news is he is being treated by a specialist so he should be able give you good advice.
Hope you get it all sorted out good luck,
Briony

Hi,

Just read your other post,

Cambridge University Vetinary Hospital (Camvet) are the best in Europe in specialising in Othopaedics and cancet treatments.All the latest research is done here.

You can ring them and self refer without your vet,for advice and possible treatment they are raelly awfully nice people and will bend backward to help you.There specialist are excellent I speak from experience.

We had a Newfoundland that was the 1st dog in this contry and Europe that underwent the 1st Triple pelvic ostesotomy (18 yrs agoapprox) which was devloped and researched at Cambridge ,the specialist s at Cambridge then taught other specialist vets around the country  to do the operation,

18 months ago they cured my Golden from a Mast Cell Tumour when she was only given 7-9 months to live max by blasting her leg with radiation I persuaded my vet to ring  them for the treatment that he didn't know exsisted for my dog for this kind of tumour and they treated her last minute running up to xmas with the latest research using radiation.

It was them that told me I could ring them any time for advice and they do take enquiries about self referring,so you've nothing to lose by phoning them,if your not happy with the vets that your dealing with now or ask your vets you waht a second opinion at Cambridge,good luck :-)

There number address is

The Queen's Vetinary School Hospital,
Madingley rd,
Cambridge tel 01223 337702 / 764184 and ask to be put through to main reception to speak to someone about furher advice self refering .

Briony :-)

Hi apolgise for my typing and grammar I've been up last night so hope you can follow it :-)

Hi, iv'e just been to the vets, very vague on whats wrong. Basically been told to rest Frankie, minimal exercise and a week long coarse of drugs! asked if they could send the xrays of his hips to be HD rated. Still an anxious owner with a lame and depressed staffie. Thanks for the address, i will be in contact with them ASAP. Will keep updated.

Frankie.

Hi Frankie,

Ask your vet/specialist to check for spinal injuries too.  It sounds possible by what you've described.  Hope you get it sorted. Good luck. :-)

I would also think of something spinal or maybe neurological!  If it is ligament etc. you need to rest your dog in a cage for at least 5 weeks and only really letting them go out for a wee etc. I know that this seems harsh and if you have a fit active dog, especially an intelligent working dog like I had, you think that they won't be able to cope but they can.  Within 6 weeks she was able to run around etc. as normal.  She's never had any problems since and the original problem was 4 years ago.