i have a 4 wk. old bichon frise from a breed/friend. the mother had to many puppy to feed and my friend works to much to take care of a puppy full time like that. she said to feed him goat milk. is that the right thing to do?

At 4 weeks he really should still be with his mother. He will also need solid puppy food now, 5 times a day. But yes could do with milk for another week or two in addition to the food.

The best advice is give the puppy back! You have no idea what a behavioural can of worms you could be opening for yourself later on. Plus it's going to be like having a human baby for a month or two in terms of care demands.

Second best is go to the vets and get some Welpi or other bitch milk formula. Don't go messing about with goats milk - it's for baby goats not puppies. I'm not sure what age bichons are weaned as I'm only used to shar-pei and they are very forward as puppies. I think 4 weeks is about standard for most puppies to start being weaned.

Mix the welpi with a little solid food. Some suggestions are specially formulated puppy weaning porridge, a good quality complete puppy food well soaked and mashed or preferably blitzed in a blender with the puppy formula milk, rice baby cereal again mixed with the puppy formula to thicken it - this last one is okay for the occasional meal, but don't feed exclusively as it's not nutritious enough. Make sure these are nice and liquidy and lukewarm at this stage. As the pup gets older the food can gradually be more solid and you can reduce the welpi and either add a variety of foods or stick to the complete food. Start with 5 or 6 meals a day evenly spread out through the day till the puppy is 8 weeks old when you can reduce to 4 meals. Be careful leaving water down with the puppy as they can drown - use a very shallow dish.

Make sure the puppy is going to the toilet on it's own as if it's not, you may need to lend a little assistance by wiping his/her bum with some warm damp cottom wool.

Beg, buy or borrow any books on rearing puppies you can find as you're going to need them!

As the pup won't be having the benefit of top up feeds from the mother you should have it on at least 6 meals a day.  I suggest the first and last be just bitch milk replacer and the other four meals a mixture gradually cutting out the milk in those once the teeth are through and you can offer it drier.  By six to 8 weeks you will be able to drop off the morning and last thing milk feeds.

As to the morals of the breeder I am speachless, if work commitments are keeping them from rearing the litter properly, a litter is a 24/7 commitment and should not be bred if this cannot be offered for anything up to 4 months.

Your main problems will be mental and social ones as pups need to be in a litter and around their dam to learn proper canine social skills.  You could end up with a fear aggressive, or dog dominant pup/dog who can't behave appropriately among other canines, and being a small dog this could get him into real trouble if he decides to take on soemthing larger.

Do you have any dogs yourself or can beg or borrow ones that are safely vaccinated for the pup to be around and be taught canine etiqret, even then it wil miss out the give and take that a pup within a litter gets.  You will really have to work hard at socialising the pup, and it will need it's vaccinations as early as possible as it's maternal immunity will wane sooner.  I sugest it has an additional Parvo shot at 6 weeks and then the core vacciantions at 8 and 10 weeks and thenget the pup out into serious canine (as well as a the other) socialsiation.

A friend of mine had her first Dobermann (a very poor specimin granted) at 4 weeks old as due to a marital split the pups were going to be drowned.  She was very people orientated, but luckily she was well socialised with other dogs almost from the start (her parents had a GSD and Yorkie) and at 6 months they got a Rescue Dobermann bitch not much older than her, and subsequent dogs. 

She was very good generally but didn't particularly like other dogs, but was well trained and brought up, so would only tell them off if they bothered her.

just so that you know i have had the puppy since it was born. bottle feeding it with bitches milk was a no brainer when the puppy was first born. and as for the breeder that is what i am here for. to help her in any way that i can. she is a single mother of 2 and doing her best to support them. put your self in her shoes that talk. thank you for you help

>bottle feeding it with bitches milk was a no brainer when the puppy was first born.

Why not? There's bitch-milk replacer which is used for orphaned pups - why not get that? I'm assuming the pup was fed by mum for at least three days to get the vital colostrum and antibodies?

as far as the puppy not having any other dogs to play with, he has a 4 MO. old bichon named lillie ( she is a long story ) and a lab mix that cleans him like he was her puppy ( she has never had any. i won't let her.) they play very well together. not to mention a cat that thinks hes a dog lol. 2 children and me. i think that he is very well soc. oh ya and more toys then my kids :-)

I agree with people who say you should give the puppy back.

What is anyone doing having a litter of puppies and working full time?!!?  A litter of puppies IS a full time job, you can't work at the same time - as this proves!

The mother does not just provide food, Dorothy, she also helps to teach the pups bite inhibition.  The pups also learn how to socialise with each other - how to play - and more bite inhibition, they learn how to behave around other dogs and it sets them up for life.  At 4 wks your pup will barely have begun to socialise or play with littermates and he's been taken away.  It's tragic.

Give it back to the Dam Dorothy.  The pup needs its Mum and siblings and should only be raised on its own if there is no other choice, ie the Dam had died.  The litter isn't too big if the Dam has raised them to 4 weeks!
The breeder should be there with the litter to supervise feeding and at 4 weeks old they should all be given 5 meals a day, being supervised to make sure that everybody is eating OK.
What a very sad story and poor Dam and other puppies. :(

If giving it back isnt an option (and i strongly suggest along with the other that you try very hard to do this, even for just two more weeks)...

Puppy milk, from the vets, not cows or goats or anything else!

Anything else you feed needs to be soft at first, personally, id be feeding blended minced beef/lamb, probably mixed with a small amount of blended veg (spinach).

Id make sure this was meat blended with some bone in it, or add some food grade bone meal to it.

As the pup gets older, the food can be less runny, and the variety can be bigger.

This is the exact same diet dill had, and pteppic, when they arrived iwth me, just mushier! (and without the whelpi as they were 6 and 12 weeks respectivelyl).

Em

Bichon Frise don't exactly have a reputation for large litters   4 or 5 is quoted as usual, that's not too many for the Dam and as has been said, if she's raised them to 4 weeks then she's managed so far ;) 

Sounds to me as if the owner (breeder??? :rolleyes: ) is finding that weaning puppies and having to clean up after them (mum won't be so keen to clean up poo once they're starting solids ;) ) isn't quite the doddle she thought it would be ;)  nor is keeping their whelping box/pen/exercise area clean ;)  breeding is just glorified s**t shovelling after all at the end of the day :D :D - sounds very glamorous but the reality is soo different.  Add to that the noise they will be beginning to make and all the mischief they can get into ...  :D :D   Only those breeding for the love of the breed will find enjoyment in it, done properly its very hard work, time consuming and labour intensive, but very enjoyable if done for the right reasons.

Personally I'd give the pup back and insist it stays with mum and siblings for socialising for another few weeks, unless you have puppy tolerant dogs available, or you feel that the pup is 'at risk' ;)

the dam has not raised till now i have. and up till now i new what to do. i thought that i would be able to ask people that go onto this site for help with out every one putting me and/or my friend down. but i can see that will not be the case here. and by the way on ocation a bition can have a litter of 8 or more. witch is this case. what would you have done? let the puppy die? or try to help a friend.

How many puppies were there in this litter? A bitch can usually feed the same number of puppies as she has nipples.

The correct thing to do would have been to leave the pup with the bitch and topped up the pups if needed.  A bitch has normally 10 teats so she should be able to rear a litter of this size with the breeders help, often this means starting weaning as young as 10 days, but the pups would still be benefiting from the milk designed for them and of course the proper canine imprining and socialisation.

The only reason to take pups away from the Dam is if she is a danger to them.

As for your freind, if they were not prepared for the work involved in breeding a litter and all the potential downfalls and extra work if there were problems they should not have bred a litter.

Your puppy is far too young to leave his mother - in fact I think it may be illegal. As others have said, he needs solid puppy food, top-ups from his mother (bitch's milk is designed for puppies, goat's milk is designed for kids) and all the lessons in canine behaviour that only his mother and siblings can teach him. Puppies and kittens reared without access to their own species (singleton pups where the dam died, for instance) are well-known for having behavioural problems when older.

Four weeks is the time in puppy-rearing where the hard work for the owner starts - but it's immensely rewarding. Your friend is being foolish.

it is not illegal. it is if you just let the puppy starve to death thou. i wish you people would stand back and just listen to your selfs.

Remember, all the information we have to go on is what you tell us - our crystal balls have been faulty for a long time! ;) If you read your first post at no time do you say you've been rearing the puppy yourself since birth - you say you have a 4-week old puppy from a friend who says to give it goat's milk, which you query. The time to query it would obviously be at the start, not 4 weeks down the line. And no, goat's milk isn't ideal for a puppy - you can get bitch milk replacer which is much more suitable.

So I'd say get some of that and start weaning the pup on to solid food (which is what you've already been advised. ;))

Dorothy,

I just have to ask, you said that you have raised pup then why ask what kind of milk to give it, shouldn't you have known this all ready, who raised the other puppies? Please correct me if Iam wrong at any givin time here.... I take it the bitch has, so really there is no reason that she can't raise the whole litter if milk was planty which it would had to have been to raise to 4 weeks... Its up to the breeder to make sure each pup gets a feed off the mom so they don't fall behind in weight ect, I have done it and my bitch (boston terrier) known for 3-4 pups had 6 puppies. She slept in my room with the litter and I was up thro the night with her to make sure all was ok plus I did work and had 2 small children at the same time as well. I tell you it was hard work but well worth it when I seen them go to their knew homes knowing my bitch and I did a beautiful job with the puppies.... When they reach 4 weeks they start on puppy food (I soaked mine) plus hand fed mine at a lil over 2 weeks canned puppy food with big litters, anyhow when they start solid the bitch don't clean up after them as much so they become alot more work for the breeder, and well most breeders decide to get rid of them (not responsible at all) and the pups as they grow can develop all kinds of problems all thanks to the breeder.... Sure a 4 week old pup is cute but tell me why someone cannot wait the extra 3-4 weeks to allow the puppy to be with its siblings and mother, why the need to take at such a young age? Its cruel if there is really no real need to seperate being bitch died ect.  The puppy only has 7-8 weeks to be with their mom and siblings I just don't understand why people cannot wait and feel they need to rob the pup from the most cruicial learning part in its wee life... If it was in the wild they are with their parents much longer so I really don't see 8 weeks of waiting too long or inconvient.

I too think you should give this puppy back until its atleast 7-8 weeks, having small children  and working is no reason to serparate them to me thats just an excuse of not wanting to deal with the work load of raising a litter. Since your friend is sooo busy why don't you offer to take the litter and bitch in till they are ready to leave to give the pup you so want the propper upbringing it needs to function properly.... She should never of had a litter if she can't deal with it, she should of had her bitch spayed....

We are not saying this to be mean just telling you the facts with raising a litter with the best interest of the animals in mind, isn't this the reason for dogforums and well if the truth hurts how do you think the puppy feels....

I can't think of anything more selfish than getting a bitch in whelp and knowing you will not be able to give her and the pups the help she needs, when she needs it.   To take a newborn pup away from the litter, simply to save the breeder work is frankly cruel, the pup will have had no stimulation from the bitch or other pups, and unless you've carried it everywhere and spent every minute of every day and night with it the poor thing has been alone except when you've had the time :( :(    Puppies reared in this way are deprived of the most basic socialisation and will have a very hard time later, in the absence of the bitch being dangerous to the pups or dying I can't see any way this could possibly be justified :( :(  Even when a bitch has no milk at all the pups are kept with mum while being hand fed ;)

Please give this pup back to the Bitch so it can at least have the benefit of living with a litter and bitch for a few weeks at least.  It will make a huge difference to how this pup deals with life later.

Hear hear dollface and dill, I agree with what you say.

'put yourself in her shoes those that talk'

Well, personally:

1. I would not have intentionally had a litter if I had 2 small kids to look after.
2. Because I would not have intentionally had a litter, I would have had my bitch spayed.
3. If, for some bizarre reason, I didn't get her spayed and an 'accident' happened, I would have taken the bitch to the vet's and had either a contraceptive injection or an emergency spay.
4. If, for an even more bizarre reason, I didn't realise she was pregnant and I let the pregnancy go ahead, then I would have bent over backwards to keep those pups with their mum.  Even if their mum is providing zero milk for them, they are still being reared by their mother and learning about dog behaviour and socialisation from their mother.  This might have involved asking friends and neighbours to come and stay with the mother dog and pups while I was at work, it might have involved any number of arrangements, including faking a sick leave or taking a holiday - but I would have done it.

So, sorry but I can't put myself in her shoes because I don't identify with any of her decisions.