Sorry to dominate with westie questions tonight! Mine is 5 months old and people often comment on his fluffy straight hair. In short he looks like a polar bear! Other westies of a similar age are already wavy, or are being clipped into lovely shapes. I love mine to pieces I think he looks cute, like a rugrat or one of those white fluffy rugs that used to be popular, but although I brush him he looks like a tatty rug in no time. Is this usual or is he a bit behind on the hair development side?

Actually, according to the Breed Standard, the correct coat should be straight and shouldn't have any trace of curl. Neither should they be clipped. It sounds as though your dog potentially has a better coat than the others you've seen! :)

thats good, perhaps my little ragamuffin will turn out to be a beauty!

You'll need someone to show you how to groom him properly, and then hopefully you'll have a handsome dog with a proper weather-resistant coat, just as they should be.
:)

At this age June he is ready to have a proper groom. Preferable stripped out by hand. A lot of people eventually have the dogs clippered but if you can get the first coat all stripped out and it will encourge a nice tighter coat.  If you leave it and then have it clippered it will remain fluffy and soft. Although you may like this look it isn't the correct coat for a westie.

I would try and find a good groomer pretty soon.

Please don't be tempted to have him clipped yet.  I wouldn't think of clipping a Westie under a year old, and would always try to strip the puppy coat to get the best possible adult coat through.

Find a skilled groomer who understands a Westie coat and isn't clipper happy!! ;)

As a trainee groomer I  have been trained to clip a Westie (wait for it Val) but leave a long coat.  Every groomer should look at the coat and adjust their grooming skills accordingly.  So if you had a Westie with a very fine coat, you would clip the coat long and leave the skin with protection.  If the coat is very thick and full you can take it abit shorter.  Hand stripping has its place, but then so does clipping and it's really based on your preferences as an owner. Not every owner wants their dog looking like a breed standard.  I know a groomer who clips Westies and they look beautiful when they are done and their owners are over the moon.  If you are after the full breed look, then hand stripping and sticking with the traditional look of a Westie, ie. round ruffled face, longish coat with skirt and generally the dog does not looking manicured, then that is your choice.  Its all down to what you want.

HI Yolanda72 :-)

> Not every owner wants their dog looking like a breed standard.<

The breed standard isn't a "Look" Yolanda ;-)

>f you are after the full breed look, then hand stripping and sticking with the traditional look of a Westie, ie. round ruffled face, longish coat with skirt and generally the dog does not looking manicured, then that is your choice.<

A stripped westies doesn't look manicured. !!!!! Sorry but I am going to have to disagree with you on this one :-D you have been looking the wrong dogs or looking at poorly trimmed examples.   A dog stripped regularly and finished off well will ALWAYS look more manicured that a clipped westie because the coat becomes so tight when stripped regularly . Furnishings are partly stripped and them shaped with thinners to give that "crisp" finish.

You will never see a more nicer or " manicured " dog than one is for example in the showring and they are all hand stripped.

Don't ge me wrong I am not saying you have to do one over another as I clip 75% of all the westies I trim but both can look nice it is not the type of trim but the person doing it and how well they are at finishing it off. Honestly :-))) 

I personally could run a grooming business just on westies alone because of the poor cuts "some" ( not all)  groomers seem to do on westies. They do the one terrier cut on them all.  Most people DO want the dog to look like the rea MCCoy. 

Training first to be a groomer is great but training is the foundation , experience is what gives the real professionalism.  I am sure you will soon know what I mean.

I personally think grooming is something that is a bit arty.. Not everyone can be a good groomer.  A lot of people will groom.

A young westie benefits so much from having the first coat stripped out. Honeslty.

You misread me!
'Look' can mean how a dog ends up looking, and by breed standard I mean you do get owners who want a dog clipped off regardless of its breed standard.
As I have discussed with Val, there are two main type of groomers, those who scissor and those who clip.  Providing the groomer is good with their chosen tool of work, I can see no reason why a handstripped Westie can not as good as a clipped Westie and a clipped Westie look as good as a hand stripped Westie. 
I get customers coming to me because as you have rightly said, they dont want the shaved terrier look.  I use much longer blades, thinning scisssors and combs to achieve a longer, natural, yet tidy dog. 

I have heard of a groomer using, now wait for it, sit down for this one, a 10 blade on a Westie!!!!!

Yolonda,

Are you not being trained to hand strip also. I would have thought this should be done at the same time.

Thanks for all your advice. The jury is still out on whether I will eventually strip or clip but I will take the advice of stripping initially until a year old. What would really help me is to find pictures of the different "styles" of clipping as well as a stripped dog. I only knew one stripped dog and I thought she was rather tatty and hard to groom. Are there are web sites I could look up for pics?

If you like I will send you a link to my wesbite.. I am not saying that I am the best groomer BUT there is a links page to a lot of good westie kennels and you can see loads of pics there.

Yes please Blue.

if you look at the top of the page at the messages button there should be a number 1 click on it I haev sent you a PM ( private mail)

Hi Blue

Can you forward some pics.  I have a Westie she is now 9 months old and through my ignorance i had her clipped - i wish i had had her stripped.   Any information you could supply would be great.  Many thanks.

I have sent you a link to my website then you can go to the links where there are a lot of other exhibitors sites

Hi Blue
I have Westies too, could you please send me a link to your website.
Many thanks
Wendy

Can I see too blue?

Blue can you send me some pics too?

Hi June, a stripped coat should be so much easier to take care of than a clipped coat, a quick brush and the dirt and mud should fall out. Clipped coats are notorious for trapping dirt - remember that a terriers coat should rarely be washed and the hard topcoat should stand up to the elements - clipping removed the coats waterproof qualities and disturbs the bodies natural insulation against heat and cold. Stripping is also very beneficial in maintaining healthy skin, and helps avoid conditions such as seborrhea, hot spots and blocked hair ducts that we hear about so much in terrier breeds. It is only my opinion, but I think that clipping and poor grooming has alot to do with the skin problems seen in terriers.  Stripping is far easier and quicker than you would think - remember that the only hair that you pull out is already dead so it comes away very easily. Clipping on the other hand does not remove the old dead hair, it just shortens it. To be truthful I do not handstrip my terrier so that they resemble the breed standard, I handstrip her because it is by far the best way to keep her coat and skin healthy and to keep her comfortable. By handstripping we are manually shedding the dog - something that nature would have done if we had not interfered with the design :)

I don't have Westies, I have their close cousins, Cairns.   My two are pets, but I've also owned a Cairn that I showed.

I agree that many of the skin and allergy problems would be greatly reduced if owners stripped rather than clipped.  These are not breeds that shed their coats - the hair that has stopped growing and is completely dead needs to be removed mechanically in some fashion and routine brushing or combing is generally not sufficient to do so.    However, many dogs never have a skin problems - and clipping seems to work fine for them.

Handstripping even for a pet dog is definitely not quick, even if you are not going for a show look.   I think that's the biggest consideration for most people.

Stacey

Handstripping even for a pet dog is definitely not quick, even if you are not going for a show look.
If the coat is rolled every 8 weeks, taking out maybe 20% each time and chalking to clean instead of bathing, then it takes no longer than clipping and bathing and drying every 8 weeks and dog still has it's natural weather protection.  I can see no reason other than lack of knowledge for clipping a half decent coat.
The old working Terrier men didn't care about the show ring look and they didn't whack clippers on their dogs!;)  Groomers are told to clip because it taken minimum skill and so is easy money rather than being in the best interest of the dog and the owner, a bit like the difference between a dog breeder and a puppy producer.

Harsh words Val!  Ideally I want the best of both camps as I can see benefits to having both skills.  Its not true that anyone can clip, they can't, believe me I have seen them! But if a dog has a decent coat, why clip it?  Grooming, if you have half a sense of wanting to be good, is not easy work even witht he help of clippers!
The old working Terrier men???? Who are they then? No true, they didn't worry about clippers but likewise I see so many so called working dogs who's coat is in such bad condition, you can't even get a wide toothed comb through it!

Val,

Sorry, but relative to a dogs that ONLY need regular brushing - either daily or weekly - if you are going to keep even a pet coat going it does take a heck of a lot longer and involves a commitment most owners are unwilling to make.  With two dogs it can take me 2-3 hours every other week to keep their coats in good condition - and I'm not fussy.  Once in a while I skip two weeks, but that generally means I need to spend longer on each dog.

Many Cairn owners will have a groomer handstrip the entire coat once or twice a year, which is an alternative if you can find someone who will do it.   However, I do not like my dogs looking like mops, so I do it myself and put in the time required.

"Groomers are told to clip because it taken minimum skill and so is easy money rather than being in the best interest of the dog and the owner, a bit like the difference between a dog breeder and a puppy producer".  I think that really is an unfair comparison.   All of the Westies near me are clipped, they are lovely happy dogs with caring owners.  Most groomers do not know how to handstrip, they may know the concept - but not the breed specific nuances.  Many owners are unwilling to pay for a groomer to handstrip, given the time required.  It does not make them bad owners and it does not warrant comparing goormers to a "puppy producer."

Stacey

Hi Stacey

I have taught many pet owners to handstrip their own dogs and they do it very well.  With a waiting list of clients, I was pleased if owners could trim their dogs themselves.

Some prefer to take their dogs to the parlour every 8 weeks to keep the coat rolling.

Others are happy to have them shaved off and struggle to groom a soft coat.  There are ways of making even the worst soft coat look better without putting a #5 on the body.  Just not my sort of work as I don't believe that it's in the dog or owner's best interest.

As I've said before, there are groomers and owners for everyone.  Each to their own but at least posters here are being given the complete picture, and not being told that the correct way to handle a terrier coat is to clip it. :)

I have to join in the debate and say, I sit and watch tv whilst handstripping my Jack Russell cross, he loves it! Handstripping is an art that appears to be dying. But the more informed I become the more skills and options I have under my belt. I am going to hand strip my Westies from now (when they are not mattedto the hilt!) on and really learn about each breed coat and the proper way it should be groomed.  Speaking of which, Val do you know any good bookks on he subject?  I'm saving for the school in Oxford!

Hi Yolanda, have a look at this website for a detailed description on grooming some of the long-legged terriers:

http://www.strippingknives.com/grooming/groomingtips.htm

:)

Joanne

Thanks for this, I will study with interest!

Hi Stacey, I roll my Irish Terriers coat, and it only takes me about 45mins stripping each week to keep it looking in great condition.  I have given her a full strip on a number of occasions and, you're right, it did take me a bit of time - about 4-5 hours over the space of a week, but I am still pretty much a novice when it comes to stripping :) . I've known people to do a full strip on a border terrier in one hour.

Hi Olivetor,

The older/deader the coat the easier and faster it is to strip it and break stripping speed records. :-)   Speaking for myself and my own dogs - it also helps if the dogs are trained to be still!   I indulge mine, particularly in the summer, and work on their coats outside.  I put them on top of my plastic garden table so at least we are both outside.   Winter I use a grooming table, but it's not as nice.

Yup, as you confirmed, stripping is an investment in time - but it sure makes a difference in how a dog looks.

Stacey

Hi there, yes I can hand strip and take on board all the very useful comments given to me thus far.

Hand stripping has its place, but then so does clipping
Clipping instantly removed the dog's weatherproofing and should only be done as a last resort if the dog has been bred with an incorrect coat.  The top coat and undercoat grow through together, making the coat appear even thicher and more difficult for the owner to groom.  It also doesn't pull out the dead hair, which will then be brushed out on the owners' clothes and furniture.
I know a groomer who clips Westies and they look beautiful when they are done and their owners are over the moon.
The difference between clipping and stripping (or even a coat trimmed with thinners) is like the difference between a shampoo and set and blowdrying.  One looks solid like a jelly mould and the other looks gently blended and natural!!;)  I'm sure that the owners are pleased if they think that the groomer knows what they are doing and if they haven't seen any correctly trimmed Westies in their area.:)

I handstrip her because it is by far the best way to keep her coat and skin healthy and to keep her comfortable.
By far the most important reason to handstrip olivetor!!  Well done to you.:)

Are we missing the point here?  What does the customer want?  Sorry I know we are going to get 'don't listen to what they say, they don't know what they want' but believe me they do.
Some customers, not all, like the jelly mold look, others quite rightly don't.
I have seen good clipper work and it does look good and it CAN look natural!!!

If the customer wants the cheap and cheerful jelly mold look, then I send them to the sheep shearer down the road.  There are plenty of them around but that's not my type of work.  They can fit them in tomorrow because they are always grumbling that they don't have enough work.  I charged nearly double and had a waiting list of owners who want their dogs to look like their breed should.  There are owners and groomers to suit everyone.  There's no right or wrong - well only for the poor dog!  If you're happy to do 'good clipper work' - I've used a clip on comb over clippers - that's just fine.  We all make a choice which camp we want to fit into........ :)
We're just trying to explain to June the correct way to handle her dog's coat and why.

>Sorry I know we are going to get 'don't listen to what they say, they don't know what they want' but believe me they do.<

Sorry Yolanda that is exactly NOT what you are going to get to as I don't think like that and I know Val certainly doesn't.

The thing about training to groom is not just training to groom you have to learn about the breeds to be a good groomer,so you educate the owners and build up a relationship with them.

PS I get asked to do a lot of breeds but I don't I only do westies. I am happy with that just now as I know I am reasonably knowledgeable about them.

This post is really interesting. It is a pity that there are not more westies out there who have been stripped. All the ones I have seen have been clipped, so I am not sure if their owners recommendations regarding groomer would be good for stripping too. Those photos that Val sent me are horrendous, but I have seen nice clipped westies too. I think there is a gap in the market regarding grooming, there is so much more to it than one realises - I dont even understand the terminology you are using - "rolling"? I would be prepared to do some grooming in between visits to the parlour, as some of you indicated you are doing, if I understood what to do and it did not take excessively long (sorry I am a little lazy) but there is also a skill in handling the dog I would suggest, mine wont keep still when I am just brushing him!  It would be great if there was a booklet with photos to inform on the different grooming styles for westies, and aftercare grooming. (hint, hint)

If there is anyone out there in the Ringwood, Verwood and Bournemouth vicinity who could recommend a groomer who strips please let me know.

Hi June.  Rolling the coat just means taking out a little each time instead of letting the dog get very long and hairy and then taking out all the dead coat in one go.  If a harsh coated terrier goes to the groomer every 8 weeks, only the dead coat, maybe 20%, would be taken each time, so that the dog never looks tatty and never bald, just tidy with a good covering, all the time.  A bit like us going to the hairdresser every 2 months to have the ends taken off rather than being scalped every 12 months to save time and money!!! ;)

Maybe I should explain further?  Handstripping is, without doubt the best way for the dog and the owner, to handle a well bred, correct course coat.  There are many pet bred Westies out there at the moment with an incorrect soft coat, that may well not strip easily, but a skilled groomer will still not slap a close blade over the body to remove everything.  Even an incorrect coat can be handled with thinning scissors, or a plastic blade which leaves the coat a good 1" long.  It happens that many badly bred Westies with poor coats are often the ones with poor skin, and so scalping them really is no help at all. :(  And the finishing styling makes all the difference between the dog looking like a Westie - or not!!

Here's an idea!  Print a picture of the Westie that I sent you (incidentally that's from my local parlour's website and is supposed to be promoting their business!) and print one that Blue sent you.  Stick them in your pocket and have a look when you next meet a clipped Westie in the park.  I bet that you'll now see then through different eyes! :)

And you're right, there's a HUGE gap in the grooming business.  Skilled groomers are never short of work, wherever they live! ;)  Thinking about a career change??? :)

June I know someone is hte Bournemouth area the area code is 01202  is that far from you.

Phew, as I breath a sigh of relief, Blue! :)

For me, apart from the obvious benefits to the dog, the MASSIVE bonus of handstripping is, you can do it yourself!

No expensive equipment, just take a bit of time to learn how its done and away you go!

Granted, with Rocky i dont have any breed standards to follow regarding his coat.. but, its amazing what an improvement you can make with just 20 minutes, even on a dog who has NOT been stripped for at least 8 months..

[URL]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/killcrazy/beforeafterstrip.jpg[/URL]

Em

Many people find it therapeutic theemx, to sit with their (small??) dog on their lap in the evening and pull the dead coat while watching the TV!! :)  Then a quick shape while standing on the table and the jobs done!:)

Hehehe, i did that outside (specifically so i could post before and after pictures to this thread), as theraputic as it is... i dont find hoovering up the half ton of Rocky hair afterwards particularly theraputic! :D

Em

Tee hee!! :D
The idea is to put a bag beside you first!! ;)

WOW, you've done well, theemx!! 
You have a dog with a tidy, shiny, waterproof new coat!  Some groomers would have run a #5 over him.  The top coat and the undercoat would have grown through together, looked really tatty and the owner would have complained that it was difficult to groom.  So the groomer would clip it off again and the circle continues!!

I am obsessed with doing it . My oh goes nuts !!! :-D

I can't help it , I pull pull and pull.. stack a little pile hair on the arm of my chair ( leather BTW so it is clean) every now and then I put it in the bin..:-)

Mental I know.

PS Boy does that read strange.. I am obsessed with stripping the dogs hair out whilst on my lap for anyone confused. :-)) 

Poor June's head must be spinnnnnnnning, but at least you have all the information to base your decision June! ;)

Fantastic, Em! Terrific job!

This is why it makes me so mad when people say 'oh i would have him hand stripped but its so expensive' etc.... yes, it is because its hard work and you get crampy hands (well i do)... BUT, its so EASY to learn it yourself. Ive never even been shown how to by a groomer (although id go find one and ask if i had a pedigree who required it), and doing that every 6-8 weeks yourself is FREE and keeps the dog so much tidier (lol, but im idle which is why he hadnt been done for 8 months!).

Admittedly, not everyone wants to handstrip their own dog, but the effect, even on a scruffy muttbag like rocky is SO much nicer than clipping will ever look, no matter how talented the groomer is, why DONT people do it more often?

Personally...i think its because so many people buy dogs who should be stripped, and just dont KNOW!

Em

(ps, ta for the compliments, i dont think ill be putting anyone out of business just yetthough.... unless people want BALD westies with no skirt at all!)

great pictures - really demonstrates the difference between "shaggy rug" look and smooth long hair. Thanks

01202 is the same code as me although its a big area - would be grateful if you would PM me with contact details