Well, I think it is a real thing but I just notice something. It seems that every post from people worried about dominance is addressed the same way. That its never dominance always something else. Some times I totally agree and think the person was ill informed to think it dominance. Then there are those more seemingly clear cut cases where it certainly sounds like dominance but people still say it isn't. I'm not trying to be strange with anyone  here. I am but a notive dog owner. Just I find it interesting, so thought I'd bring it up. How many of you believe in dominance in dogs (dog on human Dominance I mean). Also if you don't believe in the old alpha stuff, how do you go about getting your dog to behave? As I have said before I do believe in CERTAIN accepts of pack leadership or what ever fancy name you feel to give it. I'm in the John Fisher school of thinking. So just like to see how everyone here as a rule treats and trains their dogs. And what people find acceptable behaviour from their dogs (I.e. jumping up, mouthing etc.). Sorry if this whole post seems a big ramble. I'm in a thoughtful mood having just re-read Think Dog by John Fisher, but I'm not too good at putting thoughts into words. 

In my situation there are different things which are important to different dogs, and each will assert their 'dominance' over that resource - for Bonnie it's food - NOBODY canine goes anywhere near her food while she is eating. For Missy it's fuss and attention.........  I do not believe we humans can assert a canine level of dominance over our dogs by our actions.

Then how come problems go away going by 1000's of case studies when we do? I think our dogs see us as strange hairless up right dogs, so the rules do apply.

I'm convinced my dogs know the difference between humans and dogs.

There are a couple of good books covering the questions that you ask, personally i dont believe in dom.
We are a completely different species (sp ? wish i had spell check on this :-( ) lol, ok so for example a dog pulls on its walk some people class it as dom, but yet on the way back home the dog doesnt pull does that mean its only dom half of the time ? Grumbling at the owner when the owner is telling it to get off the sofa is that dom. or resource gaurding ? i would personally say its the latter. We all have different theory's as to how dogs think ....... even the top phsycologists/behaviorists cant always agree on the same things but on the whole i think dom. was a big thing a few years ago & the more people are learning so is the dom. thing fading.
Well thats my thoughts on it anyway ( off to hide under a rock somewhere now lol to wait for the fall out :D)

Wasn't John Fisher talking about humans trying to act like dominant dogs when he said, "It all means diddly squat to your dog?"

By the way, I don't think there are thousands of cases where the problem was solved by people eating before their dogs, getting in their beds and going through doorways before them.

There are occasions, I am sure, when dogs manage to manipulate humans and get what they want by it.  However, I am equally convinced that there are lots and lots of times when something else is happening and the trouble starts when you interpret every bit of behaviour you don't want as an attempt to outwit you rather than the dog just not knowing what is required of it, being undermotivated or having a conflicting motivation.

Is the dominance thing a helpful way to interpret and manage dog behaviour?  In my experience, no.

Its certainly a complicated issue.

'Do i believe in dog - human dominance'. Yes.

But really, thats the wrong question. Clearly, some dogs do dominate their owners. The REAL question is, Did those dogs WANT to , did they set out with that objective in mind. And my answer to that is clearly, unequivocally, NO.

Dogs dont think we are dogs. Dogs are not hell bent on world domination, and status, to them is only important between other dogs.

Even between other dogs, the rules are fluid, they bend at times when one dog just cannot be bothered to discipline another, or when that dog is having a bad day, has just had enough and wont put up with what he usually will. Take four dogs who live together out for a walk together and the roles change again and again depending on the situation.

That human dominating dogs exist there is no doubt. You only need to watch programs like Its Me Or The Dog to see they are out there.
But to a dog, they have all been created by their owners ill thought out actions or lack of training.
Why did Teddy Pom Pom bite his owners husband, in the first instance, i dont know. In the repeated occasions it was purely because he was rewarded for doing so. His owner found it hilarious, her partner backed off. Both things gave Teddy Pom Pom his reward for being a dominating dog.

BUT, if he were a truly dominant dog. He would not need to keep reaffirming his position. The other 'pack members' would accept his status and not challenge him, and clearly, they did, clearly he DID feel the need to restate his position by attackinga nd aggressing. This is not a naturally dominant animal, and clearly shows that dogs like TeddyPP, elevated to a status by their owners actions, rewarded for being horrible are not secure in that position at all.

IT is interesting to note, that the dogs taht really DO end up ruling their owners lives are dogs that are babied, treated like little people and not dogs, and 9 times out of  10, these are 'little' breeds. You get the odd one or two, and i remember a tv program featuring a Rottie boy who was fed chocolates and terrified the life outo f anyone he met, again because his owner failed to treat him like a dog, and was amused (at first) by his behaviour.

There is a big problem with the term 'dominance'.

Dominance suggests that dogs WANT the status they are inadvertantly being given in many cases. The fact that the unwanted behaviour causes problems goes to show, like TeddyPP, these dogs DONT want that status, it confuses them, its a struggle, its not natural.

Truly, naturally dominant dogs, with other dogs, rarely n eed to affirm their position. I have one here and she is the least trouble out of all my dogs. She most certainly isnt trying to dominate ME, and rarely does she have to remind the other dogs that she is the boss. They KNOW she is the boss.

The best thing we can all do for our dogs is to remove the word 'dominant' and get rid of the concept that dogs want to rule our familys. Pure and simple, they do not.

Dogs want guidelines, they want trust and respect and they need a leader. A leader who is trusted and respected is NOT the same thing as an alpha or dominant pack member. Not at all.

Dogs repeat the things they are rewarded for, it really IS as simple as that.

If you have a naturally pushy sort of dog, who wants and NEEDS to find his boundaries (and i have one of those right here), its easy to inadvertantly reward him for something you actually dont want, just by simply giving in when he barks in your face, backing off when the huuuuuuuge cuddly rottie pup suddenly growls when you try to pull him off the sofa.
My pup is barking in my face because he is demanding attention. His breeding is such that he constantly needs to be doing something, anything, and a lack of something to do will lead him to be a very annoying barky dog.
If i reward that by giving in to him, ill encourage him to do more. But i dont need to use forceful or dominating tactics to deal with it. I simply wait for him to do something less irritating and reward taht instead.

The cute rottie pup who suddenly growled when pulled off the sofa.. many people would say 'oh no, he is dominant'. Doubtful, its more likely you caught his ear, or hurt him slightly, or took him by surprise. But by backing off and rewarding the growl he figures out he can do it again, and does. Repeat rewards for that gives you a dog who gets on the sofa or the bed and threatens you when you ask him to get off. Nothing to do with dominance at all! Everything to do wtih learning and rewards for the wrong things.

Dogs need boundaries, they need rules, they will be happier and more confident wtih them than without. But dont expect them never to test those rules and boundaries. You wouldnt expect a CHILD not to test them? They have enquiring minds the same as we do 'what happens if?'......

The same as small children, if you reward them for being horrible, then they will continue to be horrible. If you make rules and then let them be broken, they will continue to break the rules, if the boundaries change everyday, they wont be respected.

But the way to make sure your dog is not a pain is not to 'dominate' him.

Think about being dominated by someone else. Its not a nice feeling, its not a word that makes you think 'i respect the person who dominates me'... its a feeling, a word that is scary, people who dominate other people are generally bullies, people who use fear to get their own way.

That is never the way to train a dog, and that IS what many 'you must be alpha', 'you must dominate your dog' methods want you to do.

In many instances, like John Fisher said, it means diddly squat. But some methods are challenging, and will only work by scaring your dog. Eating before him, gesture eating, keeping off the furniture, giong through doors first, none of these will MAKE you the respected leader your dog needs. They may instill some manners, but your dog is never going to think 'oh, you are te alpha leader' because you arent. You arent a dog, you arent a member of the dog pack.

Treating your dog kindly, respecting him and gaining respect back, rewarding him for doing as you want, preventing and not rewarding him for doing what you dont want, CONSISTANTLY will result in a dog who knows whats what, where the boundaries are and what is acceptable from him.

Most of all. He is a dog. You are a human.

Em

Good post Em.

Hi becks,

Have you been watching the recent 'It's Me or the Dog' programmes? I don't think the word 'dominance' has been mentioned. What comes across with all good trainers (IMHO) is the need for consistency, clear communication, respect and some understanding of the dog's situation.  If dogs know cats aren't dogs ( a species with which they share far more characteristics than with us) why on earth would they think humans were?

I write as someone who has had dogs for many years but who has only recently begun to delve into canine behaviour recently due to two rescue dogs which had particular problems.  I tried the 'Alpha' route and I'm afraid it just didn't work.  Try Suzanne Clothier or Gwen Bailey for a different perspective on the problem - and a good read.

By the way, this is not meant as a put down of any sort.   The only way to learn is to ask.

All the best,

Linda

I've been watching the show on and off. I think its quite interesting but there's something about that women that just gets on my nervous. However what she does seems to work alright. I am a fair sort so as such I will read  Suzanne Clothier, I'm curious. :)

You may find this article interesting.

Very interesting and confessing to me... I have to admit. I wish poor John didn't die before he got to say more.  Confessing because I do notice great improvement in my dog by making him sit and give paw before i feed him and other such things. I'd like to know why that is if it doesn't work. =/ I want to be open minded, i want to believe there's no need for "pack rules" yet I keep noticing that they work.

Perhaps by doing things with your dog (getting him to sit, give a paw etc) you're just becoming less distant and more of a friend (for want of a better word) to him, so he trusts you more and relaxes?

But I've never been distant with him. He sleeps in my bedroom and gets kissed and handled, played with basically all day long (when ever he wants it). So I can't really think it can be that. Just I notice when I stop giving him my love on tap (even though I want to) and make him earn it a bit instead, he is even more loving, and obeys better and seems more happy in himself. He doesn't try to mouth or places his paws on my back if I'm sitting on the floor or run away with stolen objects so much like he did before.

The way humans show love is different to the way dogs do! ;) No offence intended, but if you've been behaving towards him the way a fawning puppy behaves to an adult dog, then it could be that he's relieved that you've grown out of it!

Also you're encouraging him to use his brain, which is much more interesting than just 'messing around'. It could be that he was just bored before.
:)

What does he do when you don't make him sit, give paw etc before feeding?

He pushes his way up on your leap, trys to steal food and barks around food and so forth. Well he did until I started to make him ask nicely by means of paw or sit before his own food and toys are given to him. So the worst he trys to do to get my food is rollover or do some other sort of trick. Much better. As I feel he's learned manners by what i do.

Yes, you've taught him manners and made him more pleasant to live with, which is excellent. He's now saying 'please' and 'thank you' rather than 'GivemethatNOW!' It's got nothing to do with dominance, though.
:)

I'm not sure though, because with other members of the family that do not follow with my sort of house rules he's just as bad and can even be nippy when they want to stroke him. So that must say something at least? He knows he can push his luck with them but not me. He acts like a king and they are his subjects lol He damands attention on his terms from them but not me.  I'm thinking of getting a behaviourist in to help them with him in fact. The poor dog gets confusing messages. i never think a dog wants to be a alpha (it causes stress to them) but I feel that they think its their duty if no one else is up to the job. To keep his or her family safe and together. Its misdirected dominance not being mean. That's my view anyway.

You're describing the behaviour of thousands of children up and down the country who know that one or other of their parents is a 'soft touch'! Again, that's not dominance - unless those children want to take over the workplace ;) ! You say it yourself: "He knows he can push his luck with them but not me." The others are letting him get spoilt - you're not. Families are always harder to train than dogs!

I don't believe in 'humans as members of the pack' dominance and never did. I do believe that some dogs are naturally dominant (NOT aggressive) with other dogs. Those are the ones that become pack leaders and in my experience they do tend to be the ones that try it on most with their humans, probably because they are intelligent and confident. They are a joy to own as long as they don't get away with their try ons but I imagine they could be quite difficult if they do. But I don't for a moment think that eating before such dogs, going through doors before them etc makes a pin of difference.

What sort of thing would you not let them get away with and how do you correct their behaviour? do you yell no, get off or what not.

The most dominant dog (actually a bitch) I've ever owned was a superb pack leader and was temperamentally as sound as a bell. When she was coming up to maturity she tried it on by stubbornly refusing to obey commands she knew perfectly well. Things like refusing to get off the sofa or refusing to go out. She never offered any direct aggression but when she was doing this she would look you in the eyes in a challenging way. I yelled at her, tipped her off the sofa, took her outside on a lead and on occasion smacked her when she refused to get up even when on the lead. That would put an end to her nonsense for a few weeks, then she'd try again. As she got older the frequency of the try ons got less and eventually petered out completely. Although I took absolutely no nonsense from her we had a wonderful relationship and she still is the hound that has the largest part of my heart.

But thats not dominance though is it?

Thats a teenage dog testing the rules, finding if you REALLY mean it.. all young animals do this, its a part of learning.

Em

Good post Em & exactly my thoughts. My friend has Lhasas & always though her noisy bitch was the top dog, but when her quietest one was ill & had to be at the vets overnight she realised it was in fact her. Trully dominant dogs like you say rarely have to prove it to the others they simply know.

I don't think any dog tries or wants to dominate their owners in the true meaning of the word

Might you my puppy does dominate my life ;) which is something totally different altogether !

No, if you read my earlier post you'll see that I don't believe in dog/human dominance. What I did say was that bitch was very dominant in a dog sense and in my experience the clever, confident dog that is dominant in the dog sense usually is also the one that tries it on most.

Of course, in real canine society, the most 'dominant' individual makes sure his/her pee covers that of the others ... ! :D

Something I'm certainly not about to do.... though um I wonder if anyone has ever tryed it for study reasons.  :D

Don't look at me! :D :D

Do you do just the one back paw scratch or two Jean ? :D pmsl

With my pervious dog I did pretend to be rucking his bed with my feet, like dogs do to mark the ground. When he growled at me walking past. Nearest I've got :p

I don't believe in dominance as in the dog or owner must be alpha, and in fact believe strongly that the very word "dominance" conjures up negative feelings from the human, esp. if they happen to be a novice. They feel the dog must be physically dominated which is what I object to, as so often it prevents problems from being solved (ie resource guarding) and means that the owner feels they must "win" and not let the dog "beat" them.

As I've learnt more, one thing that has absolutely stood out for me is how unfair we are to dogs. Yes, there are dogs and plenty of them who test the boundaries (but this is no different to children or teenagers, it's no cause for panic). My Terv has been very "challenging" in training, somethings she learnt to do, such as running off when i took her lead off, were hard to solve but always "do-able" and theproblems were caused by things that happened. The running off was caused by a problem at agility and a trainer who I belive misjudged my dog's worry over the see saw (I dont hold a grudge, she was basically very helpful) and I just had to bite the bullet and train through the problem.

I was at a working trial day a few years ago, and a male trainer was being very unfair to all the dogs - he instructed his dog to stay on freezing cold ground whilst he worked other dogs for nearly 3/4 of an hour, then ear pinched it when it moved (I'm surprised it wasn't stuck to the ground), told peeps to hit the dogs on their backs if they forged forwards in heelwork, and seemed tothink it was fine to work a limping BC including the smack on the back. I was sickened by the end of jsut one hour.This trainer said to us all "it's all about dominating the dog, physically and mentally" :rolleyes:

That's what i detest about dominance when in relation to dog training.

I however thoroughly enjoyed training at a reward based nosework day - happy dogs and happy people. I come home full of the joys and so does my dog :)
I'd better point out too that people who train regularly with this group do very well in trials, I just wish I could do it more often myself.

What i am trying to say is that it is always possible to train through a problem (unless of course it is very severe and perhaps then management is the best way) and that thoughts of "dominance" just get in the way. Ditch those ideas and everything just improves and the owner can get on and work with their dog and not be hampered by a deep down worry that if the dog pulls, poos or otherwise misbehaves, that the dreaded "dominance" is lurking inside the animal :P

Lindsay
x

That male trainer sounded terrible! He should of been the one sitting on the hard floor!

If I had stayed he probably would have been :D

Sadly many peeps that day were learning from him that it is OK to treat a dog in that way, and so it goes on.

Luckily peeps are also learning other methods that are not so archaic, which cheers me up :)

The workshop was all day, we had paid for that, but we voted with our feet after an hour.
Went to a Radio Solent puppy thing instead, and were able to cuddle lots of puppies :P

Lindsay
x

My dog knows that if he wants stroking and fuss off me he has to sit first not paw me and climb on me (I have allergies and if I get fur around my face particularly, I have a reaction to it) but with my partner and 6yo son he climbs all over them and has a good rough and tumble. Some may say, I guess, that that is because he sees me as the boss as I have done all his training with him, and so knows that is how he should behave. BUT, if thats the case, that he only sees ME as being 'above' him and not my partner and son, then surely, he wouldn't do anything anyone else asked him other than me? but he will sit, stay, leave it, etc regardless of who is asking him even tho I am the only one who has taught him to do these things. So surely, the fact he climbs over everyone other than me is nothing to do with dominance, its just that he knows with me he just can't climb over me, he'll get told to get off and get nothing out of it, but with other ppl he knows he can get away with it. He knows the boundaries with each person and acts accordingly.
I think alot of ppl put things down to dominance when really, its just when you act in a certain way, the dog respects you for it, which imo, is a totally different thing.

I'm not very good at explaining things, I hope that makes some sort of sense, I know what I mean even if no one else does lol :D

If someone had asked me a couple of years back if dominance was real i would have agreed totally,... BUT after having my GSD i have about turned in my opinion.
From being very young i have been brought up around dogs they have always been a big part of my life so when we got our GSD i didnt see myself as a novice owner (not an expert either though !!) although when i look back at the time our GSD has now been with us i will definatly say back when we got him i was very "green".
He came home to us an adorable pup, my other half brought him as he was stuck in a stable (middle of winter) with a bale of straw for warmth and fed scraps, my partner felt sorry for him.

My memory blurs a bit but at a very early age he displayed challenging behaviour more so than your normal young dog and everyone started telling us he was dominant and needing putting in his place etc...

One of the first occasions i remember was he had to have x-ray on a leg at the vets and they kept him whilst they did it, i got a phone call asking to pick dog up very quickly. when i arrived i was told a locam vet had done the procedure and he was very aggressive and should be muzzled and i was a bad parent for having my child around him, he was 6 months old.

From their it is a long story of events that were put down to dominance, until i actually started to believe all the people telling me this thinking they cant all be wrong !
upon their advice :
we had him castrated on the understanding it may help him to settle. (i now believe this has had a worse effect than if we had left him intact)
we tried to be top dog, eat before him ,lay on him etc...
we had a so called behaviourist that claimed she could cure all and that he was a dominant agressive dog that needed taking into hand.
we followed all sorts of advice some bad and some worse all based around dominance
until one day my GSD tried to bite me !!!!

At this point it was nearly two years this scene had built up over and i was frustrated and upset and confused (why was my dog "the beast")
I told my other half the dog had to go, somewhere where someone understood him and could work with him.
We talked it over and i started to contact various people i thought may take him (i didnt want to dump him in rescue and believe he was someone elses problem.) after phoning around and speaking to alot of people over the course of two weeks i got talking to a police dog handler, and we struck up a long conversation regarding my GSD, the result of it being he offered me sound advice and was williing to back it up by travelling two hours across country to see the dog and help me (i could have kissed him right then).

after long conversations with this man and starting to watch my dog, i realised all those people were wrong and this is why.
My GSD may have been a challenging dog when younger but dealt with and handled differently i belive he would not be the dog he is today, and since following different route that has nothing to do with dominance my dog is totally different to the dog he was.
1) he was under socialised by being left in a stable on his own for long periods as a young pup, by the time we got him a mark had already been made on him.
2) he is actually fear aggresive and was very scared at the vets when he went for an x-ray he had never seent he locam vet before and it has since been revealed to us that he was badly handled that day by the vet (we changed vets now) but the mental scars are their and we are still trying to overcome them.
3) he had gotton away with small amounts of bad behaviour (growling at me etc) and so felt he could continue that behaviour
4) he was so stressed out as he didnt have a "leader" and he was trying to take on everyones responsibility
guarding me the house, my little boy etc that he was wound tighter than a coiled spring !!

Basically what i am trying to say through all my rambling is i was one of those naieve (sp) people that took what everyone said and believed it the label of dominant truly stuck to my dog and all it served to do was make our dog worse and could have had a very bad result.
Our GSD was lucky that i found that nice man to talk to or god only knows where my dog might have ended up today !!

I would never label a dog "dominant" as i have seen the heartache it can and does cause.

Today he is no angel but i feel we have those issues by the above mentioned and so i have to make allowances and it is twice as hard to deal with him now because of the things he has been through but i persevere (whilst feeling very guilty)
Hope tat makes some sort of sense to someone out there,
(i know what im trying to say !!! )
Donna

H i Donna , i know exactly where your coming from .As you i was brought up aroung big dogs , so when i decided to get a rottwieller felt that all would be easy .Far from the truth .He is now nearly 8 and is a big softie with our family  , but is a handful when anyone else is around . Lack of socialisation , lack of training  in the earlier years , and then "rank reduction techniques , all made for an unhappy dog . I don't believe in the term dominance , just that all dogs are different and some are more different than others . I add to say that  i wouldn't be without him .