hi there,
I have a sprocker spaniel (springer x cocker) i got her about a year ago from a lady in highclere who breeds springers for gundogs and her daughter does the same with cockers and along came trix, i've never trained a gundog before and i was honestly dreading it but she's been amazing and i could never have wished for a better dog. she's picked up on every bit of her training easy as pie,
I was just wondering how other sprocker owners cope and as you don't see many YET what others opinions are

also next year i would like to breed from her but i would like to keep he sprocker so if any one has a male working sprocker i would really appreaciate it if you could contact me

Crikey never knew there was such an 'intended' mix?  Sorry I can't help you because I have never heard of a sprocker.

I don't think any reputable breeders will deliberately breed two crossbreeds together - why not go for one or the other, they are both lovely breeds! :-)

It's quite a common cross, particularly for rough shooters rather than purists.  They do tend to have high drive levels and be quite demanding as a pet though.

hi, I had they massive problem of choosing which breed to go for and when the chance came of having a sprocker i jumped at it, and i've not regreted it since, in my eye's with trix i have the best of both worlds she has the size and brains of a cocker with the pure adreneline and stamina of a springer.
Also after speacking to a couple of vets they have said to me that on a whole cross breed dogs are far more healthier the pure breed dogs
cheers laura (and trix)

As springers and cockers are so closely related, and suffer from the same hereditary problems, I don't think that applies. ;)

im not 100 percent, when i took her into the vet's for her jabs and first check-ups he said that all cross breed dogs are on a whole, healthier than pure breed, im just repeating what he said, not sure if it's true or not
cheers laura (and trix)

cheers ali
i really appreaciate your opinion and i understand what you are saying, but with trix i am so happy with the way she is that if in the future i was to get another dog or knew any one that was looking for a spaniel i would certainly recomend a sprocker, and i allready had two people that would like a pup if she were to have a litter. Both for working home's. I think it's something to do with the whole surprise
if you go out and get a springer of a cocker you know roughly what that dog is going to look like and if you look at the parents you can get some sort of idea what sort of dog you are going to get (i know this is not allways the case) But with a sprocker you get a surprise
so maybe i should of called her kinder LOL

>But with a sprocker you get a surprise

Well, that's a new angle! :)
Why not just phone up your local rescue and ask them to just pop something in a taxi :D

haha

:p
Seriously though, won't most people who use their dogs for their livelyhood what something a little more assured in working type :).  Springers and working cockers have been honed over many generations, of people, let alone dogs, to fit certain types of work or terrain, a "surprise" dog may not fit the expected requirement.  Having said that I don't find this as offensive as one of those crosses generated just as a money spinner with a trendy name.  
I have always assumed they occured accidentally probably because working cockers and springers happen to often share a household ;) you are the first person I have come across deliberately doing it and to be honest I just don't see the point as planned litters ought to be all about predictability.

they seem to be popular here,exmoor, for picking up.
i guess if the picker uppers see more of them  they will either like them & they will become more popular or wont ,& they wont.

the downside is that as they arent a pure gundog breed,they wont be able to compete in field trials,so if you did have pups then they wouldnt appeal to the "competition" market.

i havent looked in shooting times or H&H for ages they are usually a good indication of the popularity of a breed.

hi there thanks for your reply i understand what you are saying about the ft's but give it a couple of years and they will proberly be a reconised breed there is allways a litter or two of sprockers in at least one of the shooting mags this year will be my first shooting season with trix and i can't wait she has been brilliant so far on pigeon and rabbit and she's only just a  year but fingers crossed because i know this can change in a whisper
cheers fo your reply
laura 

have fun with her,if shes good,people will be queuing up for a pup for shooting,perhaps bringing possible hubbys too!
what would you want to use another sproker ?or a springer or cocker?or just wait to see who will suit her best?its quite good in a way that you could have twobreeds & a mix breed to chose from,so you could pick a dog that you really like in attitude.
just be carefull to look into the health problems ESS & cockers have ,have her tested & look for a tested dog
you sound as if you are sensible (ish ;) -think people with spaniels are mad generally!!)
you probaley could compete in the gundog scurries at country fairs etc with her, (im not sure if Xs are allowed?)

what does she look like colour wise?build wise?

hi there isabel,
predictability doe's not allways follow if you were to talk to anybody that has trained any sort of spaniel or even pointer for instance they are all live wires and without the correct training for working can be out of control. look for instance at people that bring on labradoodles for working, labradors are one of the calmest dogs and simplist to train so why cross them, because people are inquisative, my point is and will always be, that unless you try you will never know. Unless i knew that i could find homes for pups i would never breed my girl but with from the working prespectve they WILL be a regestered breed soon as so many people are interested in them allready if you were to type the word SPROCKER into the search bar this would prove my point
cheers laura

Hi Laura! Until the sprocker breeders have them breeding true over several generations without cross-breeding, and have submitted a breed standard, they stand no chance of becoming a recognised breed.

Just to throw another point into the mix, working cockers don't actually conform to any breed standard for conformation and would be thrown out of the show ring.
Wonder if the time is now right for the KC to split the breed into working and show?
My cockers (working) are eye tested but I know of several breeders who have been condemned by people in the ft world for eye testing as "we do not have a problem in our lines"
Eavie

Well if you'll pardon the pun, there's none so blind as those that will not see.

Dawn R.

Ostriches, heads and sand come to mind!
Eavie

Then surely the breed standard needs changing if it doesn't reflect the dogs that are actually doing what they are supposed to be doing!

I don't know anything about either cockers or springers, but I assume eaxh has been developed to service a different need, so can't see the point in crossing them?

>any sort of spaniel or even pointer for instance they are all live wires and without the correct training for working can be out of control.

That is not what I mean by unpredictability, people should be aware that working breeds need correct training, I mean taking a pup and not knowing what characteristics it will demonstrate as it grows into an adult, in this case differing working abilities and bidability, working cockers for instance, I'm told by my gamekeeper friend, are much more willfull that the working springers.
I'm not aware of anyone breeding Labrador/Poodle crosses for work and would certainly agree with you, why cross them? :)
As I say I do not find this as offensive as the breeding of the various piontless "oodles" for huge amounts of money.
Just in my opinion, I doubt very much that this will ever be a recognised breed as I see little point to it when the working fraternity, who do not feel constrained to a "breed standard", are free to tweak the breeding of either breed to meet the needs of any working environment without taking the less predictable step of throwing two examples together.
However if this is what you want to do I suppose it is no different to the pot luck of breeding lurchers, for instance, so providing you carry out the relevent health screening for both breeds, ensure they are placed in knowledgeable homes and are prepared to take back any little "quell suprises" that turn out too "ooh la la" ;) growing up very cockerish for instance when something more springerish was hoped for, for said homes and given that they tend to command pretty low prices certain to leave you out of pocket on a litter I wish you the best of luck :)

Hi Laura

The advantage of a cross bred is that it is precisely that, a cross between two breeds and these often are superior in vigour and health than either of the two original breeds because of the phenomenon known as hybrid vigour.  Even though the two Spaniel breeds are closely related they will be very diverse genetically and this has a particular effect on the MHC complex genes associated with immune responses which are said to have a direct link to longevity and vigour.

As soon as you attemt to make a breed out of a cross you will lose all of the benefits seen in the F1 generation as you would have to inbreed or at least back cross to establish any sort of recognisable type or pedigree.  I can see why working people would make this first cross between Cocker and Springer but it would be very sad if they descended down the slippery slope that Labradoodles have.

Julie

This effect only lasts for the first cross.  It is commonly used in teh production of meat Rabbits.  the breeding stock will be pure new Zealand White and pure Californian (most popular two breds for meat production), but the eating bunnies will be crosses of the two.

This soesn't really apply to dog breeding, as you can't ahve a breed with just first generation crosses.  And you can't ahve first generation crosses without a breed.

Recently intoduced to 'Sprockers'. I have seen 4 young sprockers and have found them all to be delightful, very well trained intelligent dogs. Do you know where I could find a breeder of Sprockers?

Have a look in the ads in the Shooting Times, Countryman's Weekly or other such publications. They're generally only bred by working gundog people, for use with the guns.

With a 100 % pure pedigree you get the health issues (if any as not ALL peds have health issues !) of just ONE breed - with a crossbreed you get ALL the health issues of BOTH types or dog that have been bred - if you get a heinz57 then weel, you'll get a 'lucky dip' of health issues so any vet that told you that cross breeds are healthier is, IMHO, talking out of the place where the sun don't shine ;) 

Unfortunately, in the world we live in today where it is considered 'disgraceful' to breed pure dogs as we should all be going down our local rescue for the wonderful selection of crossbreeds they have there is a general misconception regarding the health issue of pure bloods !  Again, just my opinion, but I suspect that this is generally spread by those who think 'pure blood' people are upperclass and care more of the rosettes and trophies our dogs win than the actual dog itself.

I have both a pureblood and a cross (springer cross collie) and I can tell you that our pureblood is far healthier :)

ps - please don't bother picking me up on my use of the term 'pureblood' - I'm simply a Harry Potter fan and personally think it as a good phrase to use to get the point across  - nothing stuckup about it :)

Dont vets even touch on genetics as part of their training??? Breed a dog with (say) PRA to a bitch with (say) HD and the chances are you will get puppies with either or both - okay % come into play, but any genetics book will help out there.

>>Breed a dog with (say) PRA to a bitch with (say) HD and the chances are you will get puppies with either or both>

Well actually no you won't :-)

HD is slightly different because it is polygenic and multifactorial so could occur in cross breeds at the same incidence as the two parent breeds but monogenic conditions such as PRA and other polygenics have a lower incidence in cross breds and mongrels because the chances of the recessive genes being carried by both parents is much reduced when they come from different populations (breeds).

Julie

I used the "complaints" as a broad general example (hence the "say") not for the mode of inheritance to pointed out.  My point was that vets (more that anyone) should be aware that crossbreeding does not automatically result in healthier offspring. I apologise to the purists, but these are not illnesses that occur in my breed, so I have not studied them.

Hiya Laura,

I'm glad that you are getting on so well with your spaniel x (sprocker). The other thing that you need to be aware of is that, by crossing two breeds, you are actually opening yourself up to all the health problems of both breeds.  Although the working strains of both types of spaniel (Cocker and English springer for the uninitiated!) tend to be free-er than the show types of many breed related health concerns, things like PRA will still be an issue.  Also, with crossbreeds, you need to be aware that just because your girlie looks and acts like she does, doesn't mean that all sprockers will be the same!. I know quite a few, but 2 in particular come to mind to illustrate what I mean. One is the same size as a cocker,but works like a springer  and the other one is the size of a large springer but acts like a cocker (makes me smile:) )so 2 of the same crosses can look and act pretty different.
Please don't think that I'm trying to put a downer on the Sprocker as I've said I know quite a few, and they're on the whole all lovely - I personally would prefer to keep the two breeds separate, but thats only my opinion!, as long as you are enjoying your girl that the main thing.

Have fun with her - Ali :)

>>you sound as if you are sensible (ish ;-) -think people with spaniels are mad generally!!)

Indeed we are mad - I'm owned by a Yankee and 2 Cavaliers, and let me tell you, just because Cavs are lapdogs they are still pretty spaniel-ish!! :-D

I can't really express how dissapointed I am, it seems to me that no one is happy on this site unless you have a dog that is full pedigree with a set of fancy papers,
Each to there own,

All i simply wanted to know was if there are any other's out there with sprockers and said that in the future i may breed from her and all hell breaks loose...

Don't get me wrong i have nothing against pedigree dogs we also have a staff and a springer kc-reg
But out of all 3 of our dogs the only one i would consider breeding with is trix (the sprocker) for the simple reason she is an excellent worker and has been a delight to train, SO what about ft in the field there is nothing in the world that's better than watching a spaniel work

NOW LETS COUNT HE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO MOAN AT THAT

Belive me im not after your support, what is the difference between breeding a cross breed or pedigree as long as the pups go to good home's where you know they are looked after.
And i would only let the pup's go to good working home's

So what about the labradoodle  thats a cross which is now reg? a cross between a ladbrador and a poodle. If you have homes waiting for your puppies and you carry out any tests that both breeds should be tested for then you will breed no matter what anyone say to you. I wish you luck in finding a mate for your bitch. Good Luck  and enjoy your pups.

a labradoodle is not registered, well not with the kennel club anyway, possibly is with dog lovers club registration but then that isnt worth the paper it is written on :(

Received:

"We do not register Labradoodles or any cross breeds and never have done so please have this libel removed.
D.A.Winters
Co Director
DLRC UK LTD"

Labradoodles aren't recognised, or registered. They're still classed as a crossbreed.

I agree with Val, owning and cherishing a cross breed or mongrel is something many of us on here do or have done in the past but that is a world away from deliberately breeding them. 
I think you need to read the thread again and you will find your question of what people find wrong with this has been answered :) in short though it boils down to the fact that a cross bred litter will not provide any assurance that the right type of working dog is produced to suit the homes lined up and that there are vast numbers of cross breds accidentally produced every year without deliberately added to them.
I do agree with Val but her post seems to have disappeared :o :)

you really are boring me now, you are wasting your time writing and my time reading im really not interested my origanal question was to find people with sprockers unless you have a sprocker spaniel then stop wasting my time

Its up to us if we want to write, and up to you if you want to read. :) If in your opinion we are wasting our time, well okay, but its our time to do with as we please.

If I was interested in seeing a new 'breed' accepted by the kennel club I would think that forums such as this would provide a sound arena for debate, identifying potential problems and a means of championing the virtues of the 'breed'. No need for a row.

I'm not a great advocate of sprockers, but there are some practical and historical justifications for their existence. Unfortunately these reasons cant be debated if the thread gets deleted or locked.

Isabel, I posted a very thoughtful and courteous reply but realised as I re-read it that my time was wasted on this poster, and so I deleted it.  I could do so because there weren't any further posts but neither I nor the system realised that anyone else was replying! :)

Well I see that my thoughts have been verified! :rolleyes:

Once again I find myself agreeing with you :) carefully attaching the post so your's will not fly away again :D

Well, thats rubbish!

Im more than happy with my four cross breeds, and i know im not the only one!

Two of mine are working bred cross breeds, one is a 3/4 saluki x 1/4 greyhound, the other is mostly bedlington x whippet in looks, but also has greyhound and working bearded collie as well.

Both bred to do a job and do it well, but then there are many different types of lurcher, because there are many different jobs for a lurcher to do, and different types of ground or cover to do it in.

Sprockers.... well, there are working cockers (wockers, hehe) who can do the same job, what about the springer lab crosses ive seen around?
there are enough spaniel types to do the jobs needed of them, without breeding more, and unless BOTH parents have a remarkable working ability, these dogs should not be bred from. Id say the same about lurchers or the breeds that can go into creating a lurcher.

My other two dogs are bog standard mongrels, one predominantly collie, the other staffie. I wouldnt encourage them to be bred, nor would i breed from either, but i love them just the same!

Em

That is because responsible people do not advocate deliberate cross breeding for the hell of it, not for a special purpose (like Guide dogs for the blind where it is the workign ability not the breed that counts).  there arte thousands of unique crosses in dogs homes up and down the country with no homes for them without deliberately ading to their number.

This site is called Champdogs, which would indicate that it is about pedigree/working dogs.

I met a sprocker for the first time recently - a very nice dog it was too, it looked like a larger version of my working cocker, same colouring, and actually a bit quieter than Molly (wouldn't be hard!).  I don't know anything at all about breeding, so am probably speaking out of complete ignorance, and don't want to be inflamatory, but I did read an article recently in the shooting press which was saying that a lot of working cockers have some springer in them somewhere down the line.  I don't know if this is true, or if anyone else has heard this?

Julie V wrote <<a cross between two breeds and these often are superior in vigour and health than either of the two original breeds because of the phenomenon known as hybrid vigour. >>

This will only be if the two original dogs from the original pedigree were of superiour vigour and health and were good examples of their specific breeds, in which case I fail to see why they should have been should be crossed.

One might get 50% of the puppies showing the hybrid vigour - but what do you propose to do with the other 50%?

Margot.

Well no......the hybrid vigour comes about because the cross between two unrelated lines increases diversity of the MHC (major histocompatibility) genes.  Every pup will have 50% from father and 50% from mother which will be different.  So all offspring in the F1 generation will have the same benefits.  It's when you breed two similar cross breds together that you lose this diversity as the same genes then match up together again.

The other health benefits are because two unrelated lines are less likely to carry the same deleterious recessives.

Julie

Originally cockers and springers were one and the same breed, and the difference was merely the size of the individual dog. The breeds were eventually split and developed in their own ways.

I'm sure more breeds were added to the cocker to give the variety of colourings that are available today.

The two breeds have kept completely apart within the show lines, however there is a little more speculation and conjecture about the working strains.

By the 1970's the working cocker was quite rare, and the working standard of those left was pretty poor.

However, since the 70's there has been a remarkable increase in both the numbers and quality of working cockers, to the extent that there are few that can now compete on level terms with decent springer spaniels. Some cockers are now starting to occasionally beat springers in any-variety  novice and all-aged spaniel stakes.

There are plenty of people 'in the know' within the spaniel trialling community that will tell you that a great deal of this improvment has been achieved by the judicious use of some decent springers being added to the mix, and the resulting offspring being registered as cockers. This issue is hotly debated within the trialling community, and my personal view is only conjecture rather than being based upon any fact. Some very well known breeders, make very clear that their lines are 'pure' - sour grapes on other peoples successes or fact???

Discussions on some spaniel forums suggest avoiding getting too much of certain dogs into the breeding for fear of the pups ancestory being a little too obvious.

Whether the springer blood has recently been added or not, the current trend is very much toward the more typical cockery 'pocket-rockets' rather than the larger dogs more akin to a springer. It can be difficult getting much success in trials with a liver and white cocker!

So it seems that if you cross working cockers and working springers there's no hybrid vigour effect, because they've already been crossed so much? That would suggest that they would indeed be subject to the hereditary conditions of both breeds.