White Dobermanns should NOT be bred from.  Neither should dogs that have not been health tested.  Neither should dogs with high hip scores.

Having Dobermanns for over 20 years I'm totally against the practice of breeding albino dobermanns.
This is "BREEDING SUFFERING".

Anyone notice on the link to the pro white Dobermann pages all the pictures are of very young dogs no adults or old dogs at all. Synical me wonders why?
Dogmann

Similalry with the mainly US sites that have all the crossbreeds with fancy names.  They never show you what the adults look like, especially littermates, as then you woudl see them for what they are crosses that will be as different as one from another as it is possible to be.

No one that has a true love of the Dobermann Breed would entertain trying to breed a "white dobermann"... these are sadly a freak of nature.  Would anyone knowingly have a baby if it was going to be born due with a genetic defect - say be coloured green and yellow and also suffer from health problems !!!!   I think not.  All responsible Dobermann owners ought to ostracise anyone owning one of these poor creatures.
Sharhyste Dobermanns  (She)

"All responsible Dobermann owners ought to ostracise anyone owning one of these poor creatures"

Sorry but I do not find this type comment helpful. There are owners out there that will not have any idea of the depth of this issue and purely bought the dog because it was 'different'.  I can not see how 'ostracising' people who own ANY breed of dog will help your cause. This thread is here to EDUCATE :)

Sorry ADMIN but anyone buying a dog especially a large dog with so little information about what they are buying and what it involves in this time when there is so much information avalible IMO should not be getting any dog at all. Ignorance is not an exuse and dog ownership comes with many long term responsibillities and commitments that people need to be aware of prior to takeing on a Dog of any breed.

So educate, not ostracise. Nobody learned anything by being ignored.

Sorry i wasn't saying to ostracie was right just commenting that lack of information wasn't an exuse and yes people do need to be educated some any way. But buying a dog just because it looks nice with no other information what sort of breeder would sell someone like this a dog in the first place? One who cares about thier dogs i think not!

"anyone buying a dog especially a large dog with so little information about what they are buying and what it involves in this time when there is so much information avalible"

If only we lived in a perfect world. But we do not and people still buy animals from pet shops and puppy farmers. People still buy a breed of dog because they like the 'look' of it. Infact, does not everyone choose a breed initially by the 'look' of the breed in the first instance. Those of us whom are perfect, go on to research our breeds or make our choice of breed on other criteria, but many do not.  You are implying that owners of white dobes do not have a "long term responsibility and commitment" to their dogs purely because they chose them for a reason that you do not agree with and that those people should be treated like lepers. Sad really. :rolleyes:

The idea behind starting this thread as to make information available for people who visit this site - and there are a lot of potential puppy owners who do visit here to educate themselves and find out more about their chosen breed before they purchase one.

The information on the sites that support white/albino Dobermanns is very persuasive and if you read the bald statement "these dogs are not albinos because they do not have red eyes" you may believe them but the fact is that albinos can have eyes that appear red (rodents) blue and brown (generally larger mammals)- just take a look at the sites about albinism itself as well as those that relate to Dobermanns.

There is no point in ostracising anyone who has an albino or albino factored (ancestored) dog as if they are ostracised you cannot reach them to educate them that breeding these dogs is not in the best interest of the individual dogs or the breed in general.

Admin sorry if i've upset you but please read my post's again i have not singled out a particicular breed or persecuted any one was just commenting on the fact that people should be more informed about what they are doing and yes we don't live in a perfect world and are never really very likely to. The most important point and the only one that really counts is that Dogs of any breed don't suffer through bad ownership. Hopefully through visisting this site and others people can learn more about whatever breed of Dog they desire and what is envolved in owning a dog and careing for it.

My apologizes for the mis-use of the term ostracise, what I meant was to say was this should apply to anyone intentionally breeding White Albino Dobermanns and then for financial gain imposing these poor creatures on "Joe Public"  as being "unique" and "different" who do not realize/ understand the negative heatlh problems / financial outlay in the future they may have to face, the probabale long term sufferring to the aninmal and then there is the possibility of these dogs being bred from... and so the cycle begins again.   Of course education is the answer to this and I would hope that anyone before deciding to take on a Dobermann would do their research, ask advice. look at their circumstances, ask if this is the right breed for them before making their final decision. This is a beautiful and stunning breed, where a lot of hard work has gone into the removal of genetic abnomalities.  I did not mean to infer that anyone who as been conned into owning a "white" should be ostraciced, only education will bring the pitfalls to the attention of the general public, I did mean that anyone condoning the promotion breeding and selling  of "Whites" should be condemend most heartily.
My apologizes again for the mis-use of the power of words, I hope this makes my feelings regarding this a little clearer.
She

ALBINO FACTORED DON'T YOU MEAN WHITE ANCESTRY, AS WE ALL KNOW THE KC WILL NOT REGISTER ANY DOG THAT IS ALBINO. THEREFORE AS THE KC PRINT ON KC CERT IT IS WHITE ANCESTRY, SO WHAT ABOUT WHITE BOXERS? AND WHITE GSD THE ONLY DIFF IS THAT WITH THE GSD'S THEY KNOW WERE THE WHITE IS COMING FROM. HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT AS NO ONE CAN SAY ONE WAY OR ANOTHER THAT THE DOGS ARE FROM ALBINO ANCESTRY. SO WHY DO WE ACCEPT THE BLUES AND THE FAWNS?

The difference is, albinos carry many health problems....White boxers and shepherds are no less healthy than their 'normal' coloured boxers and shepherds.

White boxers carry a higher risk of hereditary deafness, and should never be bred from.

Ah, my mistake:) then I dont know about them, just the shepherds :)

Welcome to the forum Jane :) You seem well versed on the subject. May I ask if you own or breed white dobes?

Thank you Admin, no I do not own or breed white Dobie, yes I do own Dobie's all are rescue. I do not wish to breed as there are far to many in rescue thant need homes without me adding any more.

Hi Zoe, we did have a white GDS some years ago, he too was a rescue, a lot of other GSD owners and breeders would look down there nose at him saying things like HE SHOULD BE PUT DOWN, must say he was the most gentle and loving GSD I have ever met, unlike some of the b&T I have met at shows. The most important thing for me is that the dog has a sound temp. So as they say you can have the best pedigree's and the perfect dog/bitch, but what about temp of the dog.

I've only known a couple of white GSDs, and to be perfectly honest it was clear they'd been bred for colour, not temperament. :(

Hi Jane

No need to shout (type in upper case). :)

There is a great different between the white Boxers, GSD's and "white" Dobermans.  Boxers and GSD's are white with normal pigment, the "white" Dobermanns are albino.

The KC print (white ancestry) on the registration form because the Dobermann Breed Council and many responsible Dobermanns owners requested the KC to put some form of tracker on these dogs so they were readily identifiable and people who do not wish to contaminate their breeding with them can avoid doing so.

I started using the term "albino factored" (AF) long before we even had the first registered albino in the UK as the American KC have only used a Z in the registraton number since the mid 1980's  but the descendants of Sheba's parents before that had no tracker so I used the (AF) designation.  The only reason the KC's will not use the word albino is that it is not a colour, white is a colour and therefore white is used.

<HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT AS NO ONE CAN SAY ONE WAY OR ANOTHER THAT THE DOGS ARE FROM ALBINO ANCESTRY>
Please expand on this statement as I do not understand which breed you are talking about

What have Blues and Fawns - which are dilutes and longstanding Dobermanns colours in much of the world, got to do with albinism?

>Boxers and GSD's are white with normal pigment, the "white" Dobermanns are albino.

Not quite true, as far as white Boxers are concerned. Their particular 'whiteness' comes from lack of pigment, which is closely allied to hereditary deafness. If boxer breeders truly want to lessen the incidence of deafness in the breed they would never mate 'flashy' to 'flashy'.

Hi JG

I should have said white boxers and GSD's have black (or patchy) noses and with boxers often some coloured hair somewhere, especially around an eye or ear and dark eyes. 

White/albino dobes do not have even this pigment their nose, eye rims etc are pink. 

Yes, white boxers (like white staffs, ebts, dalmatians etc) are certainly not albino, but they don't have the 'normal' pigment that white dogs such as westies, white poodles do. I don't know about the pigment status of white GSDs - I would imagine they're in the 'westie' category.

My Information on why the kc use white ancestry came from them as did the statement no one knows one way or anonther.
Dr Jeff Sampson's office.

I was at cruft's this year looking at Dobermann's and must say most that I saw had a few white hairs in them.  I have looked at a few sites both here and in USA and most of the so called white's are not white at all more of a cream/cham colour.

As for the Blues and Fawns why do you not see any in the show rings?

>As for the Blues and Fawns why do you not see any in the show rings?

You do occasionally - more commonly at open shows than champ shows. The ones I've seen certainly aren't what I'd call 'show quality' - their coats have been poor and they have a 'coarse' look, lacking the elegance of the more usual blacks and browns.

A few white hairs (which often appear on black dogs where there is any form of scarring) is very different from a totally white/cream one with white points.

You do occasionally see blues and fawns in the show rings but very few are deliberately bred for in this country partly because they frequently tend to have thinning coats by two years of age but primarily because most people prefer the blacks and browns.

Do you own a a Dobermann with white ancestry ?

Hi Kerioak, No I do not own a Dobie from white ancestry, but I know someone who has a dobie that has white ancestry, must say she is a lovely bitch. I have rescue dobie's 4 of them, 2 boys and 2 girls all had there bit done so no I do not breed from them. Just seem that there are far too many dobie's in rescue, without me adding to them.

Indeed, white hairs are not unusual - my fawn boy has a few here and there where my rott X has nipped him (rough player!).  And if you saw his coat, you'd understand why there aren't many fawns in shows!  Quite sparse, and very coarse.

I don't agree with breeding white's.

Q. As long as a dog with white anc is not put to another dog with white anc what is the problem, NO white puppies would be born, would they?

and should'nt we be more concerned about people breeding VWD affected puppies or people not testing for vwd before breeding.

I was told that even if I have a puppy that has vwd clear parents, this does not mean my pup will be clear, and that I should test before breeding.

They would still be carrying the factor, though, so it could crop up somewhere down the line.

Jane quite correct except all avalible health tests should be carried out to prouduce  as healthy as possible offspring but this is another subject & not about Albino Dobermanns & the problems they can suffer from.

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