Yes, that ever-present topic :)

I'm at my wit's end now with my girl's recall.  She still isn't that good, despite what I've done so far:

First couple of weeks, whistle and treat indoors.
Next couple of weeks, the same outside, on leash.
Then onto different places, still on leash, whistle and treat. (about 450 reps a day for these first 3 stages)
6ft leash, low distraction areas, I gave her some slack then whistled her, treat for responding.  Did this for a few weeks.
Moving onto long lines; first, the 50ft, same as before, whistle and treat in low distraction.
Then more distraction.
Then a 100ft long line, then more distraction again; all good so far, responding very well.
Then the 165ft long line (that took some work!!), still all good.
Then, off leash, same situations, lowish distractions (nothing she didn't recall from before) with a remote spray collar - and that's where it all went wrong.

Opi has decided that while treats are all well and good, she'd rather naff off elsewhere.  She will come back, and she does respond to the whistle, but all in her own time, not when I want her to.  The collar, which has been incredibly effective on my dobe, is next to useless - she just ignores the spray and carries on regardless.  Fine in an enclosed field, but there aren't any safe enough near me save one, and it's so thick with plants that a strange dog could be round the corner and I wouldn't know, and she's saying hello before I can call her.  Most are friendly, but I worry about how she'd fare (being a wuss) if one was aggressive.

After all the above training, I've tried running away waving my arms, star jumps, wooping noises, footballs, bouncy balls, bagels (she's a savoury treat nut!), ham, hot dogs, you name it.  No joy.  I'm getting desparate here - if I don't find a way to get this recall down soon, I'll resort to an electric collar - and as I'm sure you can all relate to, it's the absolute last thing I ever want to do to her.  But this recall must be trained - at the moment I'm walking her and Remy separately for training, totalling 4 hours' walk a day; with work, it's completely impractical, and often I don't manage to give them enough exercise.

The only thing I can think of now is, oddly, a twist on lure coursing - me running away with a fake rabbit.  She turned into a bunny killer last week, so I figure it might help - but, I can't spend the next 10 years running away from her with a fake rabbit!  I also can't keep her on leash - she hates long lines and walks funny on them, but besides that, she just has too much energy - she's like a BC or springer in rott X clothes :D

Please, someone send me a stroke of genius before I do the horrible thing and go shopping for an e-collar :( it's been a solid 6 months of 4 walks a day, thousands of treats, and after the above program, thousands of repetitions of the recall.  She is responsive, but not to the level I've been trying to train her to.

If i taught my dogs good recall in 6 months i'd be living the highlife! My 12 yr old still isn't to good but good enough and we've had her since puppyhood! Just cool down the training , and stay consistant day after day.

You've put in loads of work but something's not right - I reckon you need hands on help to see what is going on :)

She may be better with toys rather than treats, or you may have kept her on a long line for too long. I used one briefly during 3 weeks of "silliness" but that was it (and it was only a 35 footer :P )

John Rogerson has an excellent booklet on recall, some very clever methods in there which aren't usually mentioned on forums; you are a hard worker so may find the booklet useful for support and ideas. It's available from karyn.brown@btopenworld.com and see

Did you use the spray collar as a matter of fact, ie was this a planned part of your training?

Isuspect there's a problem with motivation or some part of the plan that's gone awry, as I suggested above. Or possibly she's hunting and that is a different matter, if you are exercising her in areas full of rabbits she will learn more about hunting and may find that more fun than you. It IS possible to keep a dog away from rabbits but they need to be well trained first really.

On a walk, do you interact with her? I spend almost all the walk interacting with my dog, either silly games, training games and so on... maybe 20 per cent she's on her own doing dog stuff, but so many "ignore" their dogs and wonder why they go off and do their own thing (not saying this is you!)
Don't feel disheartened.

Lindsay
x

I agree with Lindsay -we need to find out what it is that doesn't work. :) I must admit I wouldn't use the methods you have used. Mine are simple; take puppy out as soon as only possible, off lead at once from day one (the way I see it, if they never learn that they will be restricted, they never worry about it, they take offlead for granted, and young pups follow you like ducklings naturally), and from day one I run off, hide etc. I have never had a problem, all my dogs are totally reliable anywhere, anytime. Please don't think I say that as a criticism, not at all! Just explaining how I've got mine to be reliable. (And Manny, I'm sorry but I do think at 6 months there is no reason at all for why it should be impossible to have a totally reliable recall.)

I think one thing that comes across is that you are not THE most important thing to the dog -the question is how to change it. That is why my dogs all come back to me, no matter what -they don't come for treats or anything but because they want to be with me more than anything else. They know I'm so unreliable and will keep disappearing if they don't keep tracks of me. :) Treats can work but like Lindsay says they have to be FANTASTIC, so that nothing will beat them. My own dogs go NUTS for liver.

What is your other dog like? Often having a reliable adult dog with the pup can help a lot, as even if the pup isnn't conviced that YOU are better than anything else, they will usually follow the older dog, so you get two for the price of one. :)

Thanks guys, sorry Manny but they were much more helpful than you - I have never been a "wait and just let it happen" kind of person, too much risk in that IMO.  I could understand 6 months not being long if Opi was a pup (what with those orrible teen months!), but she's 2 now, and all the teen behaviour has been and gone; spayed too, so no up-and-down hormones.

Okay... the spray collar; I used it briefly while she was on the longline, whenever she ignored me I stood on the line and sprayed, then tugged her gently to get her to come back, so I have tried to demonstrate what it means.  It has worked a few times off-leash, but the vast majority of recalls she ignores she'll ignore the spray.  It was definitely a planned part of training though - I knew how smart both dogs are, so I knew at some point they'd realise that off-leash, I couln't enfore the recall, so i planned for that eventuality from the start.

My other dog is actually less reliable when they are together, as Opi is - they seem to feed off each others' behaviour, and get more boisterous and run off more.  The following trick worked as pups - it was actually the other one who used to follow Opi, back in the days when she always, always came back *sigh* before she was a teen!!

The treats I use vary; with her it's hot dogs, occasionally ham (the tinned stuff), more often bits of bagel or biscuits (malted milk or abernethys, she goes nuts for those) - I used liver once but it gave both dogs dirahhoea so I haven't used it since.  I might try it again though, I did introduce it a bit quickly into the daily diet.  Remy went completely loopy for it, so I'll give it a try again!

I'll try upping the games - I must admit I don't interact with them that much, really because both just tend to run off and do their own thing - viscious circle, anyone? :D The running away method is one I'll use with my next pup, whenever I get one - the problem with Remy & Opi was not being prepared enough when I got them (and getting two close together, of course), so I didn't do recall training when they were pups, so now I'm fighting the independence they're used to having.  All my own fault really!

Thanks again, you've been very helpful, I will go and get a-training again with new things to try :D

K then let's all not wait and pull the recall tokens out of our arses , insert into dog and perfect recall will come to us in 2-4 days! Patience is key , if you don't have it then dog training will be useless! Maybe she's a bit overwhelmed...

Recall = life long training , 6 months won't get me anywhere if i'm training 4 dogs at once sorry to say.

I never expected to have perfect recall in 2-4 days, manny.  But lifelong to get it?  Too much IMO.  The mistake I've made (the biggest one, anyway) is trying to train more than one dog at the same time (both Remy & Opi began this training at the same time); maybe that's why it takes your dogs so long to learn, trying to train 4 at once?

Certainly I'm never going to put myself in the position of trying to train more than one dog to recall reliably again, I won't get another dog until Remy & Opi are trained to the standard I want.

It will be lifelong because a dog will never ever have 100% recall , maybe with some sort of shock or sprayer but never out of there own will. I'll tell you all my dogs excluding Max who's only about 5 months old have excellent recall , as much as i want them to have but the recall your aiming for will be lifelong if it has to be p-uuurrfect!

Hi Goldmali
You say to let the puppy off lead at once, but I was advised not to let her off lead until she is a year old and while her bones are still developing. Is this wrong of me? She is walking much better on the lead now and does pull when she sees another dog as she just wants to play. I have a 6ft lead that can be adjusted. I fear that if i let her off, she will run the other way. I am also walking her on the road a lot more as she can get used to the noise of traffic that seems to scare her a little but should I be letter her off the lead in the park? She is nearly 6 months now.

Hi Sarah
Well at 6 months it's a bit unsure how the pup will react off the lead if it hasn't been used to it, but I have always found that if you start with a new pup the moment they are able to get out and have them off the lead, at such a young age (10-12 weeks) they really do behave like ducklings and they really have no wish to run off, they follow your feet.Everything outside is new to them then and you are the one thing they know. It doesn't need to mean proper walks, I tend to carry pup up to the nearest park or whatever, put him or her on the ground, and let them wander for a few minutes at their own pace -but I do move away from them, just a few steps at first, and they always want to follow and don't want to get left behind. As the amount of exercise they can have is increased, I do it more and more. In fact, I never stop it.  I continue during the rest of the dog's life to change directions without saying anything, to duck away and hide behind trees and bushes etc, so that all my dogs know they best keep their eyes on me because they've always known I'm unpredicatable. :)  I find when the get used to it from the start they always expect it. I have timed my adult dogs, if I change direciton without saying anything (I don't say anything because I want them to keep their eyes on me) and quickly run away and hide, it takes max 10 seconds before they come charging after me. They love it as well, it's a game, hide and seek. :) (And of course every time they find me, huge fuss made!) Likewise I never wait for my dogs, if they stop and sniff I continue walking. So this is why I've never agreed with the advice to  not let a young pup off the lead (my opinion and my own experience I should perhaps add :)  ) as at that young age up to 3 months or so they still have this way of wabting to follow you -as the grow older and bolder that disappears. However you can still do it with an older dog, but if you are very unsure you may need a long line or a safe and secure place where the dog can't get far. Turn it all into a game, make yourself the most interesting thing on earth. :)

Max get's offleash 1-2 hours a day at doggy park , he's only 5 months old.

I wonder she understands what the spray collar is supposed to be telling her? If she hasn't any idea, then it's little wonder it hasn't worked :(  Likewise and e-collar if it comes to it, is hardly going to tell her what she hasn't learnt already, that coming back to Mum/Dad is the best possible thing in the world........ What rewards are you using? How many at a time?  I've found taking a dogs meal out with me, walking just before meal times and making sure the dog knows you have that meal (divided up into neat portions which you show them ;)) can help.......  Recall frequently and give a high value reward, and lots of it, to really instill the behaviour before you go on to the next step....

I have to say after following advice for just 1 WEEK from other members my 5year old has really improved! I've been taking tasty treats out with me every day and when she's off playing with her pal Ruby and I call them both, it's literally as if they've put the brakes on! I've been really impressed with her [ and Ruby ] although there is still a little way to go. When she spots other dogs I can see she is DESPERATE to go over to them, and if I don't call her immediately she sees them there's still a good chance she'll bolt. I think I'm going to try digger's taking them out before meals advice next to see if this will continue the improvement.
I'm sure you'll notice a change in your pup very quickly and if you don't just persevere. Most dogs will do anything for a reward and especially if it's some tasty nosh!
Thanks to everyone who helped me- you all know who you are!!
  
Good Luck, Liz

well done on all your training.
i think you need someone to come out with you that may be able to spot the problem

In some areas of the country there are very good trainers that would do a one to one with you. I suspect Opi has got into the habit of just going off because that's what she's always done, not always having belonged to you.

I'd definitly up the interaction with you and Opi, i'd expect to see some improvement when this happens.

Re the spray collar, it's interesting that you used it as  a matter of course; it shouldn't be needed if the dog is improving (which should have happened due to all your training :P).

But do think about whether she is off hunting, if she's killed a rabbit she may be thinking solely about this, and then recall training is going to be very hard esp. in that spot/field etc.

If this is the case, you'd do best to find another place with less or no rabbits and keep training/playing/interacting :)

Good luck!

Lindsay
x

It is a habit, definitely - but of my own doing, really.  She has always been mine - I bought her home at 8 weeks - but was a little naive when it came to training at the time!

The spray collar I wouldn't have planned into my training had I started said training when she first came home (as I intend to with all future dogs, pups or otherwise) - it was knowing that she already had 2 years of independence under her furry belt that made me think of it, just anticipating problems.

She is hunting a lot of the time, and did start killing rabbits a week ago, but most of the time she isn't getting any - just following scents or the odd squirrel.  Trouble is, there isn't anywhere near me that I can go for 2 hours a day without rabbits or squirrels, save the local playing park - and it isn't very big.  I could play fetch with her there, but after 10 or 15 minutes we both get exceedingly bored with it (even when we're playing keep away, one of her fave things) and she'll start wandering off to sniff the dozen or so trees.  Then I'm stuck for what to do.  The only other place is the beach, and to get to that we pass through a small rabbity field - plus it's too far for me to drive to twice a day!

All very frustrating.  I will look into a trainer I think, also that booklet someone mentioned, and I'm starting my dog behaviour/training course this week so maybe the tutor will have some ideas.  Thanks again!

Ooh Nikita

What course are you doing? i know you live not too far from me and would love to know what there is available in this area. I am thinking of doing a correspondence course, not for any other reason than i am really interested in the behaviour side of things.

It's a foundation degree in canine behaviour and training, i'm doing it as a correspondence course as I can't get there - it's 5 hours away in Yorkshire!  I should be receiving my first course materials and book list tomorrow or saturday, and hopefully my student loan sharpish after that or I won't be buying many books :p

An update on Opi for everyone - her recall has improved since I started using liver - so has Remy's, I can actually get him to recall from a tasty dead rabbit now, I couldn't believe it!  Not live ones sadly though :(
Opi is doing better though, we had a hiccup this morning however - she is on little walks up the park for a few days as she ripped her stop bad badly at the beach the other day, so I'm taking her to the park as she doesn't do a Pepe le Piu leaping in and out of undergrowth there!  But this morning we ran into her Border terrier friend, and they both went loony playing chase, no chance of a recall :( oh well!  They did run back after a little while, and she was nicely tired so it ain't all bad!!  I'm working on the interacting part of things - up the park it isn't a [problem, she's all about the playing and the biting of me in fun the little wretch :) but it's going to take some work elsewhere - once the lead's off she's off like a rocket, so I'm going to try some training on leash at the start of each walk before I let her go, then call her over for some fun at intervals on the walk and see how it goes.