Does anyone know what proportion of dogs improve after they have been to an APBC behaviorist?

APBC do their own annual report.
Aside from that, who would know and how would you know?
There is no external body which does an annual report on the APBC a'la school league tables etc.
And an annual report upon the APBC wouldnt really be a useful tool as such.
Its more a case of the individual members.
Best way to assess one of them would be see what the referring thinks things, and ask that behaviourist if you could get some feedback from some of his/her previous clients.
Even here, they would have to ask the previous clients for you first, to see if they wish to do this, as they may not on the grounds that they dont have the time or inclination, or they dont wish to reveal their private business to strangers.
Lastly, even if there was a recognised way of answering this question, how would you measure and define?
For example, many customers may choose to ignore or not follow correctly the advice given?
Would this count down as lack of improvement?
If so, then the resulting statitistics wouldnt be reliable anyway
All in all, I would guess that your question is one of those how long is a piece of string types!!

I realise that it would be difficult to get hard data but I was surprised when I began looking that I couldn't find any at all and I presume behaviourists follow up their clients.

It popped into my head because the much of the  basis of behaviourist theory has changed since 'dominance' & 'pack theory' have gone out the window or at least been completely redefined. So did the old methods not work? Do the new ones work better?

No, they both work(ed).
The arguements against the old methods have never been effectiveness.
The arguement is not "does it work", but "why it works".
Hence, what it does to your dogs mental and emotional wellbeing and therefore the quality of your relationship with your dog.
Achieving the same ends with fairness, kindness, and by more ulitisation and understanding of a dogs true nature.
My boss may regalarly threaten me with the sack and bully me into compliant submission at work
Thus, with a choice between shit boss and food on the table and no job and no food on the table, i may begrudgingly opt for the former and still achieve my work to an accepted standard.
However, I will still hate my boss, dream of murdering him in his bed, will never achieve my work to an exemplory standard (as i will be too nervous to stand out in any way and wont be motivated enough to go that extra mile), and every now and then my perpetual heightened stress levels and frayed nerves will make me more prone to mistakes and lapses of concentration.

Good behavioursists do have a follow up protocol with their clients.
However, that is between them, there files, and there cleints, and not made open to APBC records, which would be a breach of client confidentiality.

As Clutha mentioned above, the best way to find out about  an individual  is to speak to the referring vet and also get permission to speak to previous clients, bearing in mind that client compliance, or lack of, is one of the biggest factors in success, or not (however "success" is defined). I know of several reputable behaviourists near me, and all have full backing and vet support because they are good at getting results and helping owners, but i have no idea of actual percentage of success rate.

Lindsay
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Hi, my own vet practice is certainly not enamoured with the local APBC person. Nor was I when she 'treated' the dog of a friend as she strongly advised against the(free) method that sorted out the problem. :)

My only personal experience with a behaviorist was at the local vet school and was a last ditch effort with a dog being investigated for organic brain lesion (she did have a tumour). At the time dominance and pack ranking was the order of the day and the advice I got was no more than I had read. On the plus side the lady (who was a qualified vet) was absolutely straight in saying that the problem probably was organic and PTS was probably the only safe option.

I'm not against behaviorists, and accept that they have had a major part in advancing our understanding of dogs. But I wonder if the APBC are strict enough in vetting their members. I also have doubts about some of the things behaviorists have advised in the past and are moving towards in the present. One instance from the past of 'pack theory' was owners attempting to interfere with inter-dog ranking. I think you need to have long experience of watching the dynamics of a pack of pet dogs before you begin to understand the true ranking. And even if you can do that I think attempts at human intereference almost invariably do more harm than good. Today the trend seems to be towards looking at dogs as if they are large Skinnerian rats.  The Culture Clash which is often advised here seems to me to take this view. Operant conditioning obviously plays a part in dog training, but I've always found my dogs to be very complicated rats! :)

Another thing that bothers me is the rejection of all physical aversives. I've no desire to return to the days of Conrad Most (though imo he, Koehler and others also advanced our understanding of dogs) but I do think a loud roar, lead correction and even - shock horror! - the occassional smack have their place. Again I am NOT advocating beating dogs. The sort of thing I have in mind is a roar and a tap (or a firm head holding) for a persistently hard mouthing pup. After all this is less than Mum - and cetrtainly less than the siblings - would give.:) With the exception of one very sensitive and anxious to please lady, all of my dogs past and present have had the occassional smack, but none of them is or was hand shy, and if you came into our house you'd be in danger of being knocked down by wagging tails attached to happy, confident dogs. :)

You do raise some interesting points; my main "truck" with the APBC  would only be that a few members are highly academically qualified but perhaps need more hands on. OTOH, I know of some people i respect hugely who are either student or full members and who are excellent at what they do. One lady i see myself is a member of the APBC and several others, is good at the behaviour and the best trainer I have ever had the pleasure of learning from :) In fact if i can be half as good as her at her age i will be very happy.

Then there is the UKRCB who is very hot on the training side as well as behavioural, I am hoping eventually to join one or both, depending on how long i can afford to keep my studies up :P

I am not sure what you are referring to in the treating of a friend's dog and advising against the free method; that implies she was out for money! <g> but, she may have had reasons for what she did - I'd like to speak to her and ask her view on that one. I do know of one who is a bit abrupt with client and who won't suffer fools gladly, not the best attribute for a behaviourist. Most members have to get on with vets or other members would take over, so on the whole they will have to have a good rapport with vet practices local to them. My nearest APBC member seems to be the opposite of yours :P and the one i travel to is one i would recommend to all who transpire to great training and who want to learn more about it.

I do occasionally feel there is a need to be firm, very occasional shout, but one thing I  feel is that learning about canine behaviour means you can see things for what they are, behaviours, rather than getting emotional and personal about them.

I am very passionate about positive training and having previously been hard on dogs am still gobsmacked to see how easy it is to use good knowledge of operant and classical conditioning to train.
  I think where some positive trainers or behaviourists may fall down is that they don't show how to give consequences, but to be fair even when explaining about -P many still use it wrongly and so will not get the results. I feel this is the most effective and brilliant way to train dogs. Having stopped my own dog from barking crazily at cats using this and postive reinforcement, and stopped other behaviours that have also been very difficult, I'm thrilled at how effective the correct training can be. Also actual "obedience" training, or working trials etc (which i am learning about) is i feel so much easier with the newer methods which is why so many are adopting them.

One thing that makes me very sad is seeing dogs "corrected" - I dont believe i have ever in all my life seen a fair lead jerk or telling off. Most peeps are too emotional about it, or haven't trained the dog but are happy to tell it off expecting it to mind read. jIn  the same way that i recently read of a lady beating a dog for sheep chasing - why not keep the dog on the lead?! (turned out the dog had chased a rabbit anyway). There is always  a good canine reason or a way to prevent/manage/change the behaviour.

JMO though!

Lindsay
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My friend's dog is a small rescue terrier and she went for every other dog she saw when being walked - and the bigger the better. :) After severaL visits to the behaviourist there was no improvement. I suggested walking the terrier with my big, confident Grandma hound. My friend rang the behaviourist and was absolutely advised against doing this. We did it anyway and Lo and behold the terrier didn't attack passing dogs when Grandma was there. To cut a long story short, we worked up to letting Grandma and terrier off the lead together in the presence of other dogs with no aggression from the terrier, then weaned the terrier off Grandma. I've no idea why the behaviourist was dead set against this simple cure - but she was!

I absolutely agree with you about not getting emotional or angry when correcting a dog and especially a puppy. I always have a mental picture of what a good, maternal bitch would do. She reacts instantly, usually noisily, with the minimum of pain inflicted and she is back to normal the nanosecond the correction is done. But, like it or not, she does provide a definite negative correction. She doesn't send the puppy for 'time out'. she roars at it and/or grabs it by the head, and imho she knows best. :) Just look at how many people have posted recently heart-broken by quite old puppies mouthing hard. You can bet that the dam would not put up with this and the siblings would teach each other to moderate the bite by biting back. Or the people worried by food/bone guarding. That something that I simply won't put up with because it is the absolute no-no, aggressinion towards a person. Sorry, but the first time a dog or pup does this I don't worry about how I'd feel if someone took my sticky bun away. I smack the offender and take the food/bone away completely. I've never had to repeat it.

That said, I completely agree that positive reinforcement is the best and most pleasant way to train for the vast majority of the time. But I do think that before positive training can begin properly a dog or pup has to know what 'no' means and that 'no' means business. Techniques such as 'time out' may eventually get through, but this is not the way dogs interact.

Thanks for an interesting discussion BTW :)

:)

I do think it's good to discuss with others, I enjoy this even though other peeps may have different views, as long as no-one gets too hot under the collar :P

Out of interest, would you have said the small rescue terrier was fearful? It sounds as if Grandma hound gave her confidence, is this how you see it? And was any other training carried out besides this? :)

In my view re the maternal bitch thing - i can always understand this view and, I think perhaps there are a few people out there (usually, interestingly, breeders) who feel they can do this kind of telling off... but if you advise the average person, they would not be able to do this for many reasons - lack of timing being a crucial one. I feel also that many owners get pups and are not expecting this onslaught - where is the dog wisdom, and also why has the breeder not gone into this in greater detail? Maybe they did but the new owners felt able to cope then :D I would say though that there is no way  a very reactive/sensitive  pup such as for instance my Belgian could be told off by a human emulating a maternal bitch, because by the time the pup was 10-15 -20 weeks the dog would be avoiding the action and coming back through fear when it saw a hand... so i don't believe it is clear cut at all. I aslo finf it less stressful for me and the dog if I teach Off, That's enough, redirect onto the toy, etc. Many owners are not dedicated trainers and will not be consistent nor have dog wisdom, so success in my view is going to take longer because of such inconsistencies. One of the most interesting books I've read recently re. the way people and dogs interact is Patricial McConnell's The Other End of the Leash, it really is good and explains much of what i've come to believe :)

RE food guarding, in my view dogs can do this for many reasons, even because they are ill :)
What can often happen with scenarios where one person does the smacking, taking food away etc is this: the dog will usually end up responding fairly well or even very well to that individual, but will sometimes (not always) be much worse with other individuals who attempt something similar, or who don't have the courage to tackle the dog. (In another scenario it's fair to say too that the dog may get much more defensive and this is what i tend to see). In my view this may mean that the punishment meant the dog was not thereafter safe in the same situation, but i suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on that :p

I think re the time out, pups will stop playing with others if they are hurting them, so tend to feel it is a good way of teaching - if done well, no nagging etc and for a short time and as part of a programme. I know there are peeps out there who will send the dog outside in anger or for hours at a tim,e and that's no good!

Best wishes,

Lindsay
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Hi Lindsay, sorry for the delay in replying. I was away for a few days, then started a reply and got interrupted by visitors.

It was fear aggression with the little terrier. We knew a bit about her before she ended up in rescue and she'd lived with a family in a flat. She had lots of human contact there, but was never taken out. In addition she had been taken from the litter at 5 weeks. So while she is great with people and a pleasure to have around, she didn't have a clue about other dogs and being a terrier she wanted to get her bite in first. Grandma was enormously confident with everything and the terrier seemed happy to let her decide if there was a risk. The terrier was fine when she was with Grandma from the start. The difficult part was weaning her off Grandma but with patience it worked. Grandma has now sadly gone to the Bridge but we still walk the terrier with her daughter (the present Granny dog :) ) every couple of weeks or so to keep her confidence up. The odd thing is that the terrier had no aggression problems with all my dogs from the start. Also she lives with another rescue terrier who is a bit timid with people but is excellent with other dogs yet his presence didn't seem to reassure her at all, while the grannies did and do.

Maybe breeders believe they can do the maternal bitch thing because they have to justify the hours and hours they spend - or waste :) - watching mum interact with the pups and the pups interact with each other. I do agree that good timing is essential in most circumstances, but to take the example of puppy mouthing, it doesn't require much timing to react when Junior has his needle sharps firmly fixed in your hand! :D

I also agree about the very sensitive puppy but these are the exception rather than the rule. I've only had one sensitive (not nervous) bitch. We never so much as raised a voice to her, never mind a hand as she used to get worried even when the others were scolded. But then she never needed correction as she was so anxious to please. I suppose the difficulty comes when the owner cannot tell a genuinely sensitive or nervous puppy from an incipient little hooligan - what you call lack of dog wisdom.

You speak of new owners being overwhelmed by new puppies and reading forums like this has made me conclude that many of them are. I wonder are people more likely to be overwhelmed now compared to the past? And if so why?

On food guarding I can only say that I've never had a problem with other people. But then I'd be very annoyed if anyone except my husband and the holiday dog sitter (a friend who is dog experienced and knows the dogs well) took their food/bones away. As you say, we will agree to disagree but imo the dog that gets away with growling or snapping in any circumstances is on the road to not being safe in the first place.

The thing that bothers me with 'time out is that it is a form of nagging and again we will have to agree to disagree on how well a dog understands this type of correction. I just feel that dogs understand a short sharp unemotional shock far better and are probably far less worried by it because it is the way mum corrects pups and dogs interact with each other.

One thing on physical punishment is that we are possibly a shade anthropomorphic in the way we think dogs react to pain. You will possibly be horrified but I've come to the conclusion that they don't appreciate it in quite the same way as we do. I've seen dogs wander around apparently unconcerned with quite severe injuries, and the speed with which dogs recover after surgery is phenomenal compared to humans. This is on my mind at present because I punched my young male hard yesterday. It was completely accidental - my fist came in hard contact with his flank when we were playing. But I still hit him hard enough to have a sore, swollen knuckle today - yet he never so much as blinked an eyelid and continued merrily to leap around. :)

This is interesting because my collie of 20 weeks is becoming more challenging.  It is overwhelming - this is our third dog but we had setters before - a completely different temperament.  My husband takes the view that shouting and a slap will 'nip it in the bud' so to speak.  Her challenging behaviour has included snapping - once when he tried to catch hold of her collar when an older collie was snarling and snapping at her from the other side of the fence (our puppy just seemed to want to get stuck in!) and at puppy classes last night when she was so wound up that she would not lie down and he tried to push her down.  She has also taken to refusing to leave the kitchen after pushing through the dog gate and just generally putting her nose in the air to do her own thing.  After the snap last night my husband wanted to leave the class but I insisted on talking to the trainer.  She told him not to hit but to grab either side of the face and stare into her eyes and speak firmly. After that the pup settled down and was reasonably well behaved.  I don't want to use physical punishment - But does the stare method work with collies?

What sort of Collie ?

I'd not go with such a trainer, you see.
I would sort this out by remembering the dog is young and just carrying on training over the weeks ... my dog often got distracted, it is normal, but also means the trainer needs to show you how to keep the attention. Maybe the general relationship needs looking at - hubby smacking will not produce a happy obedient dog but one who is resentful and may start to come back.

It's worth remembering too that training class can be stressful, esp. if it is not reward based but more regimental with shouting etc, and then dogs do get distraceted, but it's actually due to stress :(

Middle of the road dogs can be told off like this - unfair on them i feel as they are a different species, we expect so much, but are not good at teaching and nurturing.  Many would get hand shy, or snap back and what then - to me, those who advocate this kind of telling off would just advise more of the same as they wouldn't know what else to do, or would say the dog was vicious :(
This is exactly what happens at our local club unfortunately.

Lindsay
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As your husband has found, physically pushing dogs around doesn't work and can make things worse.  What is it they say in physics - every action has an equal and opposite reaction?

The discussion above was about whether the very occasional one-off use of a sudden aversive has its place in training.  It isn't a method of training, and I don't honestly think it would help with things like a lack of response to commands - perhaps you should think more about how you want to train and maybe go to see some other classes to compare?

Good luck.

I am sorry I didn't mean to hijack a very interesting thread with my problems.  The original question was about APBC behavourists.  Because I have had cause to ask questions about my dog and am aware that if I don't get it right now I could be looking for the help of a professional - (I still believe that my dog has a long way to go before that happens and I don't intend to arrive there anyway.) I am interested to see what is being said.  My nearest APBC clinic is Swansea - a threequarters of an hour drive away. I suppose there are others who are not APBC trained in the area - I don't know. I would say that anyone who actually goes as far as getting referred to a behavourist is in the minority anyway.  I see numerous dogs that have never been to puppy class - most people who have problems will just take the dog to the rescue centre (would they advise a behavourist first?)  Anyone who pays for this service must be pretty determined to make it work.  By the way I had little choice in where to take my pup for classes - I think that their methods do seem to conform to what I perceive as being good practise.  My husband chose not to listen to what was being said and went off to do his own thing at the time. They were one trainer down and put us into one big class.  We have had 2 dogs before (setters) and a cross word and a slap was his method then - however I don't think that can ever be done unemotionally.  When you think that you are losing control it is upsetting and it is very difficult to act on the spur of the moment without showing emotion to the dog. My one reason to go to classes is to train both of us to have a consistant approach to the dog as well as socialising her.  I make mistakes too.  The trainers do try to give one to one attention to problems but then everyone else is getting bored. Hope the third trainer is there next week.

I admit to finding dogs easier to train than husbands - they are more receptive to new ideas!

:-)

I can really understand why some people lose their rag with dogs and want to whack them one, because at times they can seem to be maddening little sh**s!

However, you really need to bear in mind that dogs don't think like us.  If a dog doesn't do what you want it to do, it's because it doesn't understand the cue word, or because you are offering insufficient motivation (reward) or it doesn't understand the behaviour you want fully, or because you're in a new environment with distractions and the behaviour has not been proofed yet.  There are probably more explanations like this.  However, it will NOT be because the dog wants to outwit you, because the dog is plotting revenge, because the dog is pig-headed and stubborn, because the dog thinks it knows best or because the dog is trying to dominant you. 

So, when you say that your pup has learnt to push past the baby gate into the kitchen and refuses to leave...If that was me and my pup I would be thinking the reason is one of these: a. what reward am I offering the dog when I tell it to get out of the kitchen?  is this reward high enough and more rewarding than being in the kitchen with me?  b.  what command am I using to tell the dog to get out of the kitchen, and how have I trained it?  In fact, HAVE I trained it or have I just started using it and expected the dog to understand English?  c.  why am I angry that the dog has pushed past the baby gate?  to the dog it is just another barrier - the dog does not know why it is there - when out for a walk we encourage our dogs to jump hedges and cross stiles, why should the dog automatically know that this barrier is any less cross-able?

When you realise that the reason a dog does not obey a command is because it is insuffienctly motivated (your fault), because you have not trained it in a way it has understood (your fault) or because you have made the exercise too hard, too soon by introducing distractions/different locations when the dog is not ready for them (your fault), then you begin to feel pretty shit and guilty about blaming it on the dog all the time....