I am told that dog contracts are not worth the paper it is written on, is this true? I stipulate to potential owners that if the dog  is not wanted for any reason then they should return him/her for me to re home and that they should not place the dog in a rescue, puppy farm nor a pet shop in any circumstances.  Unfortuantely  one person did send a pup to a rescue society without my knowledge to which was very upsetting & the rescue society involved would not give me the new owners name & address, is there anything that I can do to prevent this from happening again? Just because I care for my babies & breed so much do you think that this is too much to ask?
Please tell me what you think, cheers

Tracie

Unfortunately as i understand it puppys/dogs fall under the sale of goods act. so the new owners can do as they wish if they no longer want to keep them. It sucks doesnt it :(

Fortuantely, most puppy buyers don't know that, so it's worth doing anyway.

Thats right once a pup leaves the breeder there's not an awful lot you can do. :( 

Rescues are not at liberty to tell you where the pup you bred is sadly :(

Is there anything on the internet about the sale of dogs regarding the law, plus the sales of goods act.

Susan

Hi If you go to the office of public sector information web site type dog in the search bar and look up breeding and sale welfare act 1999:
www.opsi.gov.uk
hope this helps

There probably isnt anything you can do but you should continue to issue contracts if it helps some owners to return their pets to you when they dont want them. Im sure some will take notice of the contract.

Contracts are not legally binding - at best they show that you are taking your role as breeder seriously and prepared to have the dog back if necessary. KC endorsement are a much more effective way of preventing breeding/exportation and I've alwasy found that making a real effort to stay in touch will all my puppy buyers is the best way of preventing situations developing. If they know that you are at the end of the phone ( or e-mail !) for any problem then they willl be much more likely to make you their first port of call if their pup needs rehoming.

Yvonne

Hi Trevor, :-)

Comments are not to offend :-)

Sorry to highjack or zone in on your post BUT ;-) you have to be careful IMHO of what you say is or is not legal.

>Contracts are not legally binding<  

Don't beat me up :-D but that probably is  not the best wording ;-) of course contracts are binding if done properly. ;-)  It certainly true some of the content may not be though but then there can be parts of an agreement that are.

There are certainly things about the puppy contract that is not binding for sure  because as we all know a puppy sold is just that SOLD with all the rights of full ownership.but full ownership would not overwrite the agreement with the KC etc . if you had a co-ownership agreement or for example breeding agreement contract etc this are all legal contracts IF they have been written correctly are are FAIR to both Parties.

Endorsements are something that would be seen as fair , if you meet all the criteria as a breeder for the endorsements then yes you could fight to have them stay on if the KC decided to lift them.

The things in puppy contracts that are not binding is things like " the puppy must come back to the breeder" etc etc where you do not have control over that sadly.

Hope you don't think I am nip picking your post I just think that there are a few posts which state legal opinions are are often not quite correct.

BFN

I think it is probably worth mentioning that endorsements do not prevent breeding or taking a dog abroad or that dog being used to breed abroad the only thing they can do is prevent the registering of the resulting puppies, which would not trouble some people, so although having their uses they are no substitute for carefull vetting in the first instance :)

Unfortunately when you sell a puppy you do indeed do that, you give up all ownership rights.

The new owner can put the dog in rescue  sadly if they wish. However,  I do think this should never deter people from writing agreements in the hope that people will be encouraged to honour them.

Put it this way if you have in your contract that you will take the puppy/dog back at anytime the new owner knows they have that option, for most buyers they would probably rather the dog go back to the breeder than to rescue. If you don't put it in they may not know you are happy to take it back at any time and under any circumstance.

some people may be embarressed that they cant cope?i guess thats why they do it :(

Think you are right Michelle , that is one of the reasons it is worth putting a compasionate paragraph in saying under any circumstances..   It does still happen so often they end up elsewhere sadly. :-(

Blue

We were told once by a lawyer that if any contract was signed without a solicitor being present it was not actually binding as the person who signed could claim that they did not understand it.  That being the case if they sign to say they acknowledge the pedigree is endorsed can they not claim the same then and the endorsement be removed by the KC. 

Just curious as we were discussing this the other day.

Karen

Hi Karen,

You were told that by a lawyer ?? Well Ooopppsss that is completely untrue. Perhaps he was meaning a particular area for example you property missives and you thought he meant all contracts?  This a good example though of how we can pick things up wrongly then believe them :-)

Contract Law is very very complicated at times which is why I try not to get knee deep in debates on the net but the basics are I think reasonably simple to understand when explained.  You have to remember though all things in life are challenged including interpretations , hence why we have more court rooms that churches these days ;-)

You enter contracts everyday in life some implied by actions such as purchasing things at the supermarket, booking a holiday or in writing for example taking things on finance, new visa application, Employment contracts, loans .etc etc

Think about all the things you have done in your life if you needed a solicitor to be there everytime you would need to have one with you 24-7.   If you spend one day thinking about how many contracts you had entered into that week you would be shocked ;-)

>>Think about all the things you have done in your life if you needed a solicitor to be there everytime you would need to have one with you 24-7.

LOL good point Blue, would we all need one each?, i dont think the OH would let me have one for that long... cost a fortune :D

You were right Blue it was in conection with property law.  To cut a long story short my father in law acted as guarantor on a lease which we sold on then the new owners went bankrupt and the owner came to us for money for rent which we wouldnt pay so he then threatened to go after my father in law who consequently hadnt signed in front of a lawyer so therefore the contract was invalid.

Very interesting though so in your humble opinion a endorsement couldnt not be removed IF you have a signed contract which very clearly states that I have explained and the pedigree endorsement will not be removed.  It is something which always worries me.

Karen

Ahh I thought it might be that. property law is governed well because of the huge monies involved. 

TTS,

I would never say never as people are people sometimes even if things are in black and white organisations screw things up. So many unjusts in the world .  That is me being pesamists.

I would say however if the contract is plain simple, outlining the endorsements clearly then it should be fine. I am a great believer in saying only what needs to be said in paper, to keep it simple so no misunderstandings can happen or claimed. :-)

>not actually binding as the person who signed could claim<

Thinking about it TTS   perhaps he was meaning that it could be challenged and you have thought he/she meant them all.  There are some people practising as solicitors that shouldn't but even the worst usually don't make sweeping statements like that :-)

BTW another thing to remember: 

There are hundreds of ways and reasons someone may try to challenge a contract BTW that is one of the reasons I try to stress on here things are not cut and dry. People give example of an event that happened and think a similar event will have the same outcome. It may not and the reason may be someone so simple that someone without a trained eye would over look.

IE  One person may have had contractual capacity and other may not. ( don't ask me to go into them :-) but I always say people should buy /rent and read a decent Buisness law book.

The comsumer protection has various law and guidelines on these for the public.

KC endorsements will prevent any pups being registered but alas will not prevent them being born in the first place. The type of usual puppy contract which stipulates that the dog should be returned to it's breeder etc has no intrinsic value - in fact we did not bother with them for our last litter- as you point, out once sold the pup becomes the property of the new owner to do with as they wish - which is why trying to make sure the owners are right in the first place is the best ( and hardest !) course of action.

Yvonne

Hi Yvonne :-)    I don't think you and I are disagreeing on this just looking at it from different angles :-)

Of course what you say is true when you look at it from a black and white point of view , " WE" all want the best homes for pups BUT this is the real world MR & MRS perfect families DO split up and dogs do end up in homeless situation.  People take ill etc etc.

You, nor I could ever say a puppy you sold or indeed every puppy from a litter you sold could not and would not end up in a homeless situation. 

We should never discourage people/breeders from encouraging people to bring the pup or dog back regardless of the situation. IMHO.  This is why I personally think this is vital to the contract , if we only put intrinsic things in a puppy contract or any contract we would be better not bothering at all to be honest as we all know that most of what is in them won't hold any weight in law. The most important thing and the whold fundamental reason for doing them is if the need arises the people will know who to contact for help. If they deter and encourage good ownership then we must continue to use them. Whist there is no hard evidence to prove they work , Iam happy to take my risk everytime by doing them and hope they do.

Endorsements of course will not stop everyone BUT it is all part of educating people.  Yes they may try to go buy elsewhere to buy if refused by one of us but to look at it another way perhaps it could make them think more.

Now just to finalise ;-) :-D  , there is nobody more black and white that me, I work day in day out doing, reading, disputing & tearing contracts to pieces but I think dog ownership takes a special place in this world :-) , living breathing creatures deserve that extra bit of work and thought by us :-)

BFN P

Blue - I am not saying that other folk should not make their puppy owners sign a contract if they feel this will provide a bit of extra security for the dog - I do know that circumstances change  and that owners may need to bring back their dog BUT for every one that does there are probably 10 more that sell them on or rehome privately or through rescue irrespective of any contract that they may have signed !- mostly I feel due to a lack of continued contact between the breeder and the new owner. We all know that many breeds go through a very difficult stage  between 8-18 months and sometimes new owners may be embarassed/ashamed to admit to the breeder that they cannot cope.

My own personal way of dealing with this is to phone or e-mail every 6 weeks or so , send Christmas and 'birthday' cards (yeah I know soppy ;)) and ask for photos as the pups grow. With each contact I emphasise that I am ALWAYS here to help or give advice. Now some owners may not return my calls etc and I have lost touch with one or two but along the way we have made many new friends and managed to pre-empt difficult situations from escalating. We did have one of our 'pups' back - at 8 years old - his owners personal circumstances had changed and they could not keep him -( he stayed here until he died from cancer at 10 ) 

As you say - dogs are special in that they share our lives so intently and deserve the very best efforts we can make to ensure they go to the right homes - contracts may make the breeder feel a bit better but if thats all they do then they are an ineffective and unenforcable tool.

Yvonne          

>My own personal way of dealing with this is to phone or e-mail every 6 weeks or so , send Christmas and birthday' cards (yeah I know soppy ;)) and ask for photos as the pups grow<

Hey Yvonne , Not at all I think that is a very good thing.  

I am probably in a breed where we can also have the privilege of helping with the trimming etc. A few puppies I have sold all come back for trimming so I get to see them often :-)

BFN as off out the door shortly to Ireland