do i need to put in writing that the endorsements are on the pups pedigrees or is it enough to just make the new owners aware of this?

I would then there can be no missunderstanding.  Put it in your puppy contract somewhere.

Endorsements must be clearly explained in writing  AND signed by both parties. Give them a copy and you keep a copy.

If you puppy contract is more than one page both parties should also sign and date all the pages.

Make sure you put at the signature that the new owner agrees by signing this contract they  fully understand the terms and implications of this contract.

If the Endorsements are not in writing the Kennel club with lift them it clearly says it on the Litter registration document.

luvapug, did you just get an affix granted? As i saw in the this months kennel gaz, that there was a lovepug ! Was just wondering because of your addy.

sorry about not replying to your question lol.

Jane

No thats not my affix just my name on here

When you say in writing Pam does that mean in pen? Silly question i know, i'm just wondering.

Susan

Written (or typed!) down on paper, not just told verbally.

I put in writing. Happily e-mail a copy of my contract to anyone.

Either or to be honest Susan. It would be better typed probably but you can always write one and photocopy it and it would be just as good.


Endorsements must also be explained , it is not enough to say they have endorsements and that is it :-)

Hi all
This might sound like a really stupid question but what exactly are these endorsements ??

Please note this is just an example :

Snip taken from a puppy contract I have: ( if the Endorsements are applied)

You will see on your 'KENNEL CLUB' REGISTRATION CERTIFICATE that there are two ENDORSEMENTS on the forms. These are to safeguard the welfare of the puppy and the breed.

There are 2 endorsements,

The first one is:      R - PROGENY NOT ELIGIBLE FOR REGISTRATION
The second is:        X - EXPORT PEDIGREE NOT ALLOWED

The second one basically means the puppy is "not for export" and that the breeder nor Kennel club will permit or grant an Export Pedigree. We will NEVER remove/lift this endorsement.

The first one   R - PROGENY NOT ELIGIBLE FOR REGISTRATION
This is to protect the breed by ensuring that only the best specimens are used in the ( Breed name ) breeding program, It also helps to ensure that the welfare of the puppy is paramount. Any litter born who have a Sire or Dam with these endorsements cannot register the puppies with The Kennel club nor can any of these puppies then go onto have Kennel club registered puppies.

Thankyou ;):)

Endorsements CAN be lifted but only by the original breeder (who applied them in the first place). There have been a few instances where the KC have lifted endorsements because the owners have successfully claimed that they were not made aware of what the endorsements meant. By the breeder explaining and putting it in writing - with signatures confirming that it has been read and understood - hopefully everyone is protected from such misunderstandings.

Anyone had any difficulties with endorsements? I have not had any problems (so far) with owners accepting and understanding the reasons for endorsing the registrations. I have one owner who is considering the possibility of breeding her bitch - I am happy to lift the endorsements IF the bitch is good enough for breeding and will then be happy to help and advise in any way I can, maybe even having one of the pups myself!

Clarence, Did you think my post meant the endorsements couldn't be lifted?  Not sure if you reply was to me but it came in behind me.

As I Said  That was just a snip from my contract showing the "explaination"  of what the endorsements are.  Of course the endorsements can be lifted but I was reply to the question what they are and how you should explain them on a contract. Not whether or not they can be lifted :-)

If you do not explain them properly they can and have been lifted before.

I never ever put a " IF " in a contract because this can imply there was a possibility that they could be lifted.

I always make it clear they will never be lifted as the pup is sold as a pet only.

Hi Blue, wasn't a direct reply to your message just a follow on.
No-one had mentioned the possibility of lifting endorsements and as it is part of how the system works the KC may well regard the explanation incomplete if it is not mentioned. Personally, I think it is important to have an "if" if only because it is so difficult to accurately predict the adult dog when they are such small bundles. If a "pet" home wishes to breed from one of my pups I would happily be involved if the conditions were right. (Conditions being the home situation as well as the quality of the dog.) I would rather give my help than place obstacles in their way; our relationship is based on trust and friendship right from the beginning otherwise they would not have got one of my pups in the first place.

I would like to see the KC automatically endorse registrations on all puppies. Endorsements could then be lifted on completion of health and temperament tests. I would also like to see some kind of health check system in place for puppies, with a view to stopping repeat breedings where there are hereditary problems. Probably just a dream!

HI Again :-))

>KC may well regard the explanation incomplete if it is not mentioned.<

You only have to explain what the endorsements are for and that they are there in place. I am 100% sure of this. You are under no obligation whatsoever to explain why or when you would lift them in the contract for the KC. 

Now whilst I can understand where you are coming from with the "IF" for a buyer. Perhaps you ( not you personally) are happy to let them breed from the puppy if healthy checks etc are met  but when you put things in writing you have to be 100% sure your wording doesn't imply or that it could be interpretated another way. What reads clear to you can be torn in two by someone clever with changing the interpretation of the wording ;-), or they may imply you have explained it differently to them. " look she has IF in her contract so she knew I wanted to breed"   It has all be tried and tested by many a con artist.

I have personally helped 5-6 people this year with problem contracts after people have tried to get round them. Most all have made them too heavy, too lengthly ,too complicated  and far too many IFs :-)

Again and just to reiterate for the questions ,whist you (again not you personally)or anyone may sell a puppy and then let the owner have a litter later on that is entirely up to you or the breeder, the Kennel Club is not interested in that part, they  just need to know that you fully explained the Endorsements and that the buyer understood them.

>our relationship is based on trust and friendship right from the beginning otherwise they would not have got one of my pups in the first place.<

If only this could be true, if this was the case you, I or anyone would not bother at all with the endorsements. All the best vetting in the world won't catch a clever trickster. What starts out as a lovely relationship can break down quickly. We read it week in week out on here people trying to get around the breeder. I had one myself , someone I would never in all my life think would try to get around me.  Attempts were short lived though. :-)

The best contract is one that is clear and simple.

To be honest I personally think the puppy contract works best as "a pet puppy contract only" and never for breeding.  Then there can be no mistake.   If you decide to lift the endorsements later fine but if the intention is not in writing there is no way you can be "held against a wall" to lift them.

I offer no lifting of endorsements for pups bought as companions. 
I will never encourage a pet home with no experience to have a litter.  I wouldn't be prepared to put a bitch that I've spent 8 weeks on my hands and knees with at such a risk!!  I will only lift endorsements for experienced people or those who are willing to put the time in to learn about the breed NOT just to have a litter of puppies!!

HI clarence ,

Forgot to ask and hope you don't mind me asking, when you say you will lift them how do you measure the quality do you wait until the dog has been shown or worked ? Not singling you out just that you said you would lift the endorsements if and when you were happy.

Hi Blue, how do I measure the quality? - by the same standard that I set for a bitch I would use myself.

"A good example of the breed" has to be the main criteria; I've seen several dogs in the the ring (both show and working) that I wouldn't use as breeding stock so that does not have a particularly high priority for me although I admit that it is a good opportunity to observe the dog/s in action. I keep in touch with most of my puppy owners so have the opportunity to see the overall general quality of the litter; it's no good breeding from a beautiful specimen if the rest of the litter was not of a consistently high standard as they all share the same pool of genes.

The other consideration is the "dedication" of the owner. Anyone considering breeding needs to do their homework and be well informed about the horrors that can and do happen. It's not just about puppy-breath - so much the better if they have the active support of someone who can help - yes?

Every breeder has to start somewhere! :-o

> I've seen several dogs in the the ring (both show and working) that I wouldn't use as breeding stock so that does not have a particularly high priority..<

Probably a bit off topic now :-) BUT

Do you show or work the dogs yourself? How do you measure your own standard or how do you decide if something is good enough to be bred from?

BTW not got a clue what breed you have but just interested in what peoples methods are. 

I would say the showring will have a good percentage of good stock. yes you will always get some not so good but as a whole I think most breeds have a reasonably good standard in the show ring. It is also one of the best methods as a learning or really understanding the breed standard I think because you have them in the hundreds to compare.

Maybe we are going a little off topic... but :-) ... (and how do you do those grey quotes????)

I do everything with my 4 GSDs myself - I've started a bit of instructor training too, just for the hell of it! Always willing to learn but don't like being shot down in flames so am a little cautious about getting drawn into too many debates as there are many things I feel passionately about. Am slowly being drawn into showing - the GSD show world is a bit controversial to say the least, but I'm gradually finding my way about and with a bit of luck my young (10 months) male will give me a few more interesting outings. His obedience is coming on really well, he's very easy going and willing to please.

BTW, What is your breed?

I have wittle Westies ;-)

Grey quote.. put >  before the wording and < after :-)

Just out of interest, has anyone ever been contacted by the KC for proof that endorsements have been understood and agreed to? - i.e. if a puppy buyer takes up a complaint with the KC in an attempt to get the endorsements lifted, do the KC then write to the breeder and ask them to provide proof?

No personal cases to quote or axe to grind - have just heard the 'urban myth' that this doesn't always happen and would be interested to know if it's true.

M.

Yes I have proof MYSELF ;-)

2 things that show the KC do check things:

I bought a bitch in for showing who had her endorsements on.  When I went to register the litter they called me to say that they were still on and they also called the breeder. She had sent a letter in but it had got lost in the KC pile of mail ;-) Needless to say it was sorted right away. It was reassuring to see they do check it all though.

more seriously though I know of a dispute not in my breed but a freinds of mine who has American Cockers. Someone bought a puppy and said they didn't sign any contract. The breeder has had to forward the contract to the KC. The owner then said the breeder must have forged his signature. The owner was then asked to send in a formal copy of his signature. He hasn't done it suprise suprise. The endorsements are not being lifted. That is why you should always keep a copy and give one to the new owner and also get all the pages signed.

Excellent news :D

M.

oops sorry luvapug :)

Me got things wrong again lol

Jane

I've just read your other message about the rudeness you've encountered from some pf the puppy buyers. From what you say they are exactly the kind of people who have made it so important to endorse registrations!!! The endorsements are intended to help protect the integrity and welfare of a breed by having a bit more control over breeding stock.