I got a little bit told off over the weekend by a farmer/landowner toff type person because my boys were "out of control" on his land.  Fair enough they are usually quite well behaved and stick within the footpath (or nearly ;) ) but it must be all the fresh partridges just come out that have made them go totally loopy.  Anyway I got a telling off, and told to put them on the lead which I did and we all three trotted off tails between our legs :(

Anway .... relaying the story at work today and someone said that he would have been quite within this rights to shoot my boys if they were chasing his partridges   is this true? they werent doing any harm, just flushing them out really - giving the birds a bit of practice for the shooting season ;)

And before I get slammed, although I jest,  I know what they were doing was wrong and I know it is someones lively hood and the boys wont be doing it again in a hurry.  I was just wondering it that would give a farmer cause to shoot a dog, I would have thought these days they would be scared of losing their gun license ?

Claire

If a farmer feels that a dog is threatening his livestock, he's within his rights to shoot it. Whether or not partridges would come under 'livestock' is a moot point.

Game birds do not come into the 'livestock' bracket.

I wondered about that, Admin. Would that apply even if they'd been specially reared for shooting?

As far as I am aware, game birds are covered under another section. It is wise to remember that Poultry are included as 'livestock' though.

I'm not sure about the legalities, but I've a feeling that there would be a sufficient number of people that might believe that they would have the right to shoot your dog, to make it unsafe to allow him to chase game. It would be no consolation to be 'in the right' after your dog has been shot.

that is very true :(

this person at work (who I beleive knows sod all anyway about country stuff) said that if a dog is out of control on farmland (whether it be disturbing livestock or not) is liable to be shot

i didnt personally think so, although they are liable to be shot by me if they dont start behaving ;)

No, a farmer can't just shoot willy-nilly. This article is the first I can find that explains it fairly well.

I think the farmer only has to believe there is "intent" or the "possibility" of?

Animals Act 1971. Section 9 is the most relevant here.

DEFRA: Control Of Dogs

Thanks, Admin. The 1953 Act says that game birds aren't included as livestock, yet the 1971 Act includes pheasant, partridge and grouse as being livestock while they're in captivity.

Glad we got to the bottom of that :)

The short answer is yes they can under certain circumstances:

"A farmer is legally protected in shooting a dog in his vicinity if the animal is not under the charge of a person and is worrying, about to worry or had worried livestock and if he has no practical means of identifying the owner or there is no means of preventing or ending the worrying"

Are the partridges livestock? well if the farmer is breeding them for food or for shooting then yes they are.  If they are just naturally breeding or roosting in a field no they aren't.

So as they had me at the edge of the field shouting at them (even though they didnt take a blind bit of notice ) then he can identify me as the owner (even though you wouldnt have thought so the way my two treat me :(  ) and therefore wouldnt shoot the dogs ?

If they were chasing sheep, say, he'd be within his rights to shoot them if you couldn't call them back.

Now may be a good time to mention the implications of the Hunting With Dogs Act too  :rolleyes:

Not quite:

"if he has no practical means of identifying the owner or there is no means of preventing or ending the worrying"

there is an "or" in the middle - even if he knows you are there if he doesn't think you are capable of preventing or ending the worrying he can shoot.

BTW a couple of people have said that game birds are not livestock but under the Animal act of 1971 apparently they are.

Steve

"livestock" means cattle, horses, asses, mules, hinnies, sheep, pigs, goats and poultry, and also deer not in the wild state and, also, while in captivity, pheasants, partridges and grouse" 1971 Animals Act

Game birds in pens are protected but when released, are not :)

Its all very confusing, I think I will stick to excercising them on the football field or the "partridge free" field at the back of my house :)

But what does "while in captivity mean?" after all sheep running round on, for example, a welsh hillside would I assume be "in captivity" so are Pheasants on a farmers / landowners land?  The trouble with all this of course is that you could argue it in court but if your dog has already been shot it's a bit late :(

Steve

It is only the game(not domesticated)birds that are covered by the captivity wording.

Sheep, cattle, farmed deer, pigs, chickens etc are always classed as livestock. Wild boar on the other hand are only covered if they are contained within a fenced area. Escaped wild boar are classed as wild animals(& there are quite a few !)

Sorry what I was trying to get at was are Pheasants (and other game birds) in "captivity" when they are on the "breeders" land or only when they are in some sort of pen and would a fenced of field be classed as a pen? I appreciate that once they are off the land then they are in effect wild animals.  

Steve

No, once they've been released from their rearing pens they're no longer 'in captivity' even though they may still be on the 'breeder's' land. A fenced-off field wouldn't be classed as a pen.

>Escaped wild boar are classed as wild animals(& there are quite a few !)

we used to come accross quite a few whilst out hacking near greenham common early in the morning, the horses used to start acting strange and then a funny looking pig would appear

"But what does "while in captivity mean?"

It means in pens I assume. Once your release game birds, they are 'free' in theory. Farmers could only stop them leaving by penning them in or by doing something to the actual bird that would stop it flying or wandering off.  The birds can and do leave at times. It is only food and game management that keep the birds on that particular piece of land.

>also, while in captivity, pheasants, partridges and grouse<

Just rung my friendly gamekeeper up the road

The above birds are only protected whilst they are being reared & upto the date they are released from the release pens after that they are not covered. If they were still covered it would apparently be illegal to shoot them they would have to be either put down by a vet or slaughtered like domestic fowl !

Here in Ontario, Canada they sure can and I know one neighbour whose dog was shot dead and another dog with a right front leg that is a marvel of medical engineering after successful attempts to save it after a shotgun blast.  Both these neighbours willfully allowed their dogs to run loose in contravention of the Animals At Large act, which is thought by many to apply only to large farm animals but can and is applied to any domestic animal running at large, dogs, geese, whatever.  I myself was advised by our provincial police to shoot a large dog which was terrorizing our neighbourhood.    Keep in mind, this is only likely to apply in pretty serious situations.  Our OPP are not going to be very supportive of anyone who complains to them about the neighbours puppy straying onto their property for the first time it happens.  Though a colleague did receive compensation when a farmers goose flew out of it's yard and into her car and broke a window and dented the side. 

Dogs can also be shot here, by Conservation Officers, if they are found to be running deer or harassing wildlife.  Its usually awfully hard to identify the dogs though so this rarely happens unless they are caught in the act.

It is very interesting to have an insight from members in other countries on how those countries deal with these matters :)  Your poor colleague must have wondered what on earth hit them!