I'm NOT trying to start a "firestorm" here,ok?....just got lost in the thread further down.
Can anyone explain why de-barking would be concidered "cruel"? W/out saying,"How would*you*like it?" or some other variation on the anthropamorphizing theme?(Dogs aren't people & people aren't dogs)
Awaiting your responces;-) Thanks

In simple words then De-Barking = Cutting through the vocal cords !
Now I may be a bit simple but I think that sounds,cruel,needless,barbaric need I go on? Entirely done for a quick fix and no substitute for training,As we in this country dont condone it then its safe to say its unacceptable :(
Does that answer your question?

Uh, no,actually it doesn't.I believe I asked*why?*.What I read in your was reply was"it just is"....Could you try again?
"Cruel"....how so?
"needless"......ever met a dog in immanent danger of being re-homed or put down due to in-curable(by all other means)barking?Ever met the same dog after the procedure?
"barbaric".......if done at home w/a rusty butter knife,from the outside,perhaps;-)

I agree with Mattie, it's cruel and a lazy way of dealing with a problem, if your dog chewed would you pull all it's teeth out, if it dug up your garden would you chop it's front legs off? no I don't think so. If you don't want a pet that barks then don't have a dog , get a hamster!
If a dog is barking continuously wouldn't it be more prudent to look at why it is barking, if it is due to stress at being left then perhaps the owners should consider if their lifestyle is suited to a dog.
Why do we find it necessary to just treat the symptoms instead of treating the cause?
oh yes and I have met a dog that was in danger of being rehomed due to barking, it was a whole bundle of stress being left on it's own and when it was rehomed with another member of the family it was back to it's normal happy self! problem solved without surgery, must be a miracle :D

I was just about to post something similar :)
The cruelty could be construed as deliberately inflicting a permanent disability on a dog when the cause of the problem may have been overlooked, and veterinary surgeons over here would, quite rightly, be reluctant to oblige.
The world of dogs is advancing all the time. In training the Woodhouse, Koehler methods to name two are now considered old school as better methods with less emphasis on FORCING the issue are being introduced with superior results. Far better to find out why the dog is nuisance barking and try to deal with it through training.

gitemgang? what is the point you are making I cant see one at all.
I also said cutting through the vocal chords what bit of that dont you understand as being cruel???
Or if you are trying to be tedious,well done you've acheived your aim

I have actually met a collie that has been de-barked it was done as she had been very severly physically and mentally abused by her previous owner and didn't actually just bark she screamed constantly and this was the only option once she was rehomed by a very experienced collie person I may add.It is definitly a last resort measure in my mind and in most cases needless surgery for the quick fix.Gillian

I suppose it is viewed here in the same way as some view the docking of tails or the cropping of ears, a needless mutilation of no benefit for the dog itself. One could argue that spaying and castration is also a similar mutilation primarily aimed at preventing a social problem, unwanted puppies.

It would seem in a country that has quite tight controls on dogs (my friends can only keep 4 where they live, in south Australia), that debarking is frowned on http://www.dpc.vic.gov.au/domino/web_notes/pressrel.nsf/f256273dd79280564a2562050034c33c/9b19c64ca280f77b4a2567d1007fa72c?OpenDocument

another view http://www.dogpatch.org/sheltie/debark.html

This site has amany articles on the issue http://dmoz.org/Recreation/Pets/Dogs/Issues/Elective_Surgery/Debarking/desc.html

On balance itwould seem even in countries where it is done, it is often viewed with distaste, and is controvercial!

I have a cocker spaniel that has barked constantly for the past 5 years. We have taken her to every dog training class to try and remedy the problem, but things are still as bad. We have neighbours that aren't very 'dog friendly' they have now reported me to the council and I have to rehome my dog. This has broke my childrens hearts, we have had the dog as long as the 4 of my children can remember, they cry every night knowing that soon she will be in a new home (or sent to the dogs home) So if you are asking me if de-barking is cruel I would say NO! If I could have found a vet to do this to my dog I wouldn't hesitate and my dog would still be happy with us and my children would not look at me as the 'wicked mother'

Hi Cocker Crqazy

I'm sorry to hear about your situation...unfortunately some cockers are a bit "gobby"...my two certainly are...have you tried going to an animal behaviourist (Sp?)...I'm sure you have.. I can't believe your neighbours reported you...how awful for you and your family...

There are plently of people who visit the board looking for older cocker spaniels...i'm sure you will be able to find your dog a good home...not that this helps the situation at the moment ...:(

Regards

Natasha

I do sympathize with this persons problem - but I can understand why the neighbours reported her. It is no fun living next-door to anyone who constantly crates a nuisance - no matter what form that nuisance may take. Noise is one that can be particluarly destructive and harmful to a persons health. I'm surprised though that it's taken five years to get this far. I can only assume that the neighbours have given every opportunity for the problem to be rectified.

Cockers are often very vocal but if in the right environment it should be controllable so that it does not cause problems with neighbours. We are very sensitive to our boys causing our neighbours upset and so as soon as they bark - they are brought inside. The are never allowed to bark constantly. Nevertheless so that we can prevent any possible conflict with our very wonderful and understanding neighbours - we are looking to move house to somewhere were the boys can bark when outside without any fear of trouble.

We are lucky in that we live in a big detached house and so if they bark indoors it doesn't bother any neighbours. Sadly not everyone is in this position and if you live next door to a dog that, as the poster says, barks constantly - I think I'd be up there with them in wanting something done about it.

I don't agree that de-barking is the answer though. Judging from what they said in that the dog is five years old and the children are around the same age - I think we have evidence there as the cause in part of some of the problems. The dog has been competing for status in the family with the babies and in all probability and totally understandibly, the dog has perhaps not had the attention it needed in the early days because of babies and very young children.

The dog is barking for a reason and has not learnt what is not acceptable and has got away with it. The behaviour needs to be unlearned but will take time and effort. A number of young children is probably not conducive to making tha happen and perhaps this boy would be better in a home where the owners can concentrate on helping ease his anxieties/over-excitability to bring his barking under contyrol.

It is an awful problem and I truly feel - but for both sides. No easy solution here:(

jmho

Pam n the boys

I do agree that de-barking isn't the answer.

Dogs bark for many reasons as we all know, and some just bark because they love the sound of their own voice.

Sadly too some bark and get attention with the owner continually shouting "shut up" but being completely ineffective :(

It is much much easier to control a dog's barking if at home all day, than if out at work obviously, i reckon this may be a big problem for some. My dog loves a bark and her bark has deepened as she has grown, but she will be quiet when i ask. I have for the first time good dog friendly neighbours which is such a blessing :) i don't want to get on their bad side or ruin our friendly relationship.

lindsay

Firstly my children aren't babies, they are ages 13, 11, 9 and 6. I have 5 cocker spaniels and this one is the only one that barks constantly. The others do bark but understand when told 'No' they stop. All my dogs have full time love and attention, I'm a stay at home mum!! I have been in touch with the breeder and she has told me that the other 5 dogs from the litter are also constant barkers!!! Many of which have had to be rehome because of this problem, so please don't try and put the blame on me. It's heartbreaking enough without people trying to put the blame on me when they don't know the full story :-(

If we could afford to move home we would and to be honest my neighbours have never been that friendly, the would complain at the slightest thing ie. christmas it was the christmas lights in the garden, we had a pond and the water trickling disturbed them, we had a gazebo in the garden and the rain hitting it kept her awake and the list goes on..............lol.

Hi

I'm sorry you have taken offence at my response. It was based on information you gave and I stand by it based on what you had said. You said that your children had been around this dog for as long as they could remember - thereby intimating that they must have only been very young when you got the pup. That is certainly true for at least on of your children - they are not babies now - but were five years younger when you got the dog concerned. You now say you have five cockers yet only one barks constantly. I think you are very lucky then as Cockers usually feed off each other when it comes to barking and being excitable. Out of interest - how old are your other cockers and what sexes?

I still don't think de-barking is fair - especially in the company of other dogs who can bark!!

The one thing that did cross my mind was have you tried the abiostop collar? Not an electric one - but the spray version. Used properly - they are very effective - especially if you get the remote controlled one where you control the correction.

Unfortunately if you have difficult neighbours then you have to accept that they are going to be difficult and if anything you are doing breaches legislation then they are entitled to do something about it and are more likely to do so. Judging from the noise the children that live close to me and my own make - coupled with five dogs, one that barks consistently, I'm not surprised your neighbour is perhaps difficult especially if they do not have children and/or dog/s themselves. People let a little thing get under their skin and then anything no matter how insignificant it may seem to you, takes on a wholly different perspective to them. Barking dogs are one of the most common causes for noise complaints to local authorities and for rifts between neighbours and having suffered noisy neighbours in the past - doing DIY at midnight cos that was when they finished work!!! I can see why.

edited - I see from a previous post that your cockers are all bitches aged from 5 years to 5 months - it begs the question to be honest why have you continued to get more cockers when you already had one that was having problems? - I'm sorry if that seems brutal - but I just don't understand why people get more dogs when they are having problems with what they have rather than waiting until the exisitng problem is resolved first.

Hi Pammy

I actually breed my dogs, not the barker though, I wouldn't want to breed a litter of pups with a chance they could turn out like their mum. It's a bit pointless to say why get more dogs, it's like saying why have more children if you have one with speech problems!

I will try and find the collar you mentioned, I am willing to try anything. My neighbours on away for 2 weeks now, so I am hoping and praying for a miracle cure but can't see it happening :-(

Like tail docking, I think this is a topic people will never agree on, so I will finish here, thanks for replying.

It could be that she thought a companion for the barky one would help, though the ones after that probably not for that reason!

I have one like that, who backs on to me for 3/4 of the width of my garden.

That is one reason my dogs only have access to a third of the lenght of the garden, don't want him perhaps winding them up, or for them to have the opportunity to bark so close to him if they spot a cat or soemthing.

all mine get called inside the moment they open their mouths! Even barking at the Postman is wrong to him!

One of the reasons I have pups in winter, so that most people are sfely behind closed windows and doors, and the mornings don't lighten too early!

Hi Natasha

Thanks for being so understanding, it's a shame all people can't see the good side of people and understand the problems rather than make me feel worse :-(

No Problem...just wish I could help by giving some constructive advice..but I don't know what to say :( I hope things work out for you finding your dog a good home...I completely understand how upset you must be...it doesn't matter how many dogs you have...they are all loved unconditionally, and if one has to go...

I have a number of people contacting me for older cockers both here in Jersey and through the UK., if you e mail me your contact details..then next time I get an enquiry...I shall pass them onto you...It's a shame you didn't post last week, as I had someone very interested in homing an older dog, and I put them onto someone I knew in the UK. I will try and find out if they are still looking..

Regards

Natasha

hi

I was very interested to hear that all the littermates were barkers, as this sort of thing does tend to happen - and imho yes, it is very important that breeders do look out for this sort of thing :).

Certain breeds of dogs do end up with all sorts of "habits" from a behavioural point of view, because of breeding for certain characteristics. Thus we get the flank sucking Dobies, "growlling" Rotties who like to lean and talk, and BC's who just have to "grip" at even a slight sudden sound or a rapid movement.

I do feel very sorry for you and my first mail was not intended to upset, just shows how bad emial can be at getting things across somtimes!

Do try the Aboistop, but also remember that it can be set off by a dog barking close by. It is not cruel when used sensibly. You may also like to consider a reputable behaviourist, as unless the dog is really obssessed they can help in this sort of situation.Most owners do go to a behaviourist as a last resort when all else has failed so it won't hurt to give it a go. If you are unsure as to how togo about getting hold of a reputable one, please feel free to click on my name and mail me privately and i will do my best to help :)

If the dog is insured hopefully the insurance company would pay.

I have had neighbours who dislike dogs in the past and as they were convinced mine were GSD's - their pet hate - I had a terrible time, and all attempts at communication failed. Luckily they moved and then I moved to where we are now.

Good luck
Lindsay

Hi G. think you answered you own question. Dogs are dogs & dogs bark. People are people & people talk
Christine2

Speaking as someone who has a VERY vocal puppy (even when sleeping)- I would and could never dream of doing such a thing to her:( The fact that she's vocal is all part of the package I suppose and she's not causing any trouble to the neighbours as she only ever barks etc when spoke to as if to answer- to ever even think of taking this part of her character away upsets me an awful lot. As christine says dogs bark and people talk I can't imagine ever taking that away from them- if you have a particularly vocal dog- it's part of the package, when my children learned to talk all they ever said was 'Why' and 'But Why'- like I said it's what they're meant to do and all part of the package.

Stacey x x x

Well would you like to lose your voice permanently then ,My sister inlaw rescued a de barked dog
in australia and the dog has had quite a few problems ,

Pat

How about this for reasons why not? General anaesthetic, trauma to throat with risk of bleeding, risk of obstruction to airway during and post op and post operative pain, not something I would happily put a dog through for my convenience.

I think it is a cultural thing ..there are some things we do not find acceptable in the UK but they do in the USA and vice versa. I hate seeing Dobes and Great Danes ears being made to stand up in the USA for example.

De barking isn't done in the UK because we dont generally feel the need to do it. Cats meow , dogs bark ...it is a natural , communication thing as well as a warning indicator.

Melody

they don't only strap the ears up to make them stand up but cut away a goodly portion of the ear, it is called cropping and has not been allowed in UK for over a 100 years!

Can I turn the question around? Why do YOU considder de-barking not cruel?

Awaiting Your responce!

Good One John :D

Dear Git......emgang :p
How about the cutting off of peoples fingertips who write too much waffle ?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :D :D :D :D-- great spelling!!

Just a thought, perhaphs someone should suggest to G that his vocal cords are cut, and let him see how frustrated, upset, and mentally affected he would feel?

yep-i think it would make him feel a difference in his vocal cords---as for mentally affected :rolleyes:

roflol dizzy

OK I am an American and find the generalizatons being made on this thread deplorable. Shame on you. People have different opinions. Does not matter where they are from.
As to debarking a dog, I would personally not do it unless it was a last resort. What I mean by that is if I lived in an area where my dogs barking was considered a nusiance and I had tried everything else imaginable with no sucess. I would consider debarking. It does not eliminate the dogs bark entirely, just quiets it and it is not permenant. This would have to be a decision between giving up the dog or keeping it. Of course if you would give it up, it could face the same problem in it's new home. What then?

All I can say Bumblebeeacres is that to me, De-Barking is not an option! I would not do it! The comments made on this board as to the need for dogs to have a tail in order to communicate are 100 fold more relevant when it comes to giving voice. We hear stories of people moving into the country from the towns and complaining of cockerels crowing, well to me, dogs bark, it's a fact of life just as we talk! This is not me having a go at you or anyone else for that matter. Maybe there are cultural differences which make it acceptable to crop ears and de-bark. If so I just hope the fad never comes here.

John

I agree with John (Blimey) Barking is a form of communication for the dog. Just try and imagine if one of your forms of communication were diminished or removed altogether.

Dont worry Bec, Normal services will be resumed as soon as possible!

Phew was getting worried there! :D

are we witnessing an historic moment here ? :) :)

jon ,thats worrying, bec and i have agreed with each other a couple of times too, but we soon got over it :D

Sorry John,
But I really don't view debarking as a trend over here. I don't know of one person who has done it, and I know many many dog owners.
The point I was trying to make is if you lived in a town where it was against the law to have your dog barking too much (common over here) and you tried everything else, and moving wasn't an option, and giving your dog away could just have the problem eventually occur for them ( which in turn would result in the dog being moved around or PTS), than what to do? PTS? don't think so. Remember this is a dog you love you have to do something. Do you approve of those shock collars more? Be realistic this is a problem that does occur. Some neighbors can be vengeful and not understanding.
I am not suggesting that it's right to do this out of owner convience, but what about sincere deperation?

I have never said anywhere about De-Barking being a trend in the USA, I've never been within 2000miles of your shores so I have no comments on that score. The word I used was fad which has a totally different meaning. As for your remark about Shock collars, If by that you mean Electric Shock collars, then I would have thought my views on them would have been well known by now so I dont intend to get into an argument on that score at this time!

So I messed up on a word ( to me trend and fad are very close in meaning--- and I don't consider it a fad here either), but has the point I've been trying to make to you been seriously contemplated? What would you do in the situation I presented?

I think over here "Trend" is looked upon as a development of behaviour, as in "The way life is developing" whereas "Fad" is seen as a "Silly craze! Sooner forgotten the better!" Words do seem to have different meanings on differing sides of the ditch I'm afraid.

As for a dog barking excessively, I would have to ask why? Some breeds are noisier than others, that’s a fact but if it is more than "the breed average" then there must be a reason. Is it left to its own devices? Is it hyper? Somewhere there is a reason! Find that and you are well on the way to the answer. That is the way forward not resorting to surgery. After all, if the dog kept running away you would not resort to cutting the legs off at the knees to slow it down would you?

John

John, I haven't replied to you much because I usually agree with you. But if I had a dog where the only (legal) answer was put it down or de-bark? I'd de-bark - as reluctantly as I neuter for medical reasons.

I agree sharon,
Living in a city with close neighbours I bend over backwards to keep the barking to a minimum, eventhen you can't please some people, mainly a moany ol so and so that backs onto my garden. Mainly for that reason my dogs only get the first 2o feet of my sixty foot garden, so that they aren't close to his fence. I am giving him no rope to hang me with!!

I have been in the situation you ask about and I became really down about it. New neighbours moved in and complained to the council about the dogs barking. We got told that if they didn't shut up, we'd have to get rid of them. Out of the 8 dogs it was 2 of them who happen to bark if someone is near the property. In my opinion and that of my other neighbours who say they hear the dogs very rarely there was NO problem but the council said if the dogs were upset a single person they would see us in court.
Rehoming was not an option as one of them has behavioural problems due to horrid abuse by his last owners so we were faced with the prospect of having him PTS. We contacted a behaviourist and after only 4 weeks of working with a behaviourist the dogs no longer react to anyone near the house or anything.
I wouldn't have had him debarked, all it takes is training, time and patience. The dog in question is very difficult due to being abused and is 9 years old. If he can learn so can most.

I'm glad that you were able to get it worked out. I was putting up a hypothetical if nothing else at all worked, what then? As a very last resort? Anyway, I'm tired of the topic, because in practically all cases there is probably a cure, and I was just trying to push to see how far people would go if need be.

Carissa

I was just thinking about this topic over my dinner (as one does) and I just thought of something. Now, I am by no means saying that I would consider debarking - far from it - but consider this example:

Some would say on the subject of debarking "how would you like it if your voice was taken away?" I'll bet the answer would be "not very much!"

But I'll bet if you asked, on the subject of castration "how would you like it if your balls were taken away" you would get an even stronger reply, such as "not on your nelly!" (or worse...)

The point I am making here, is that I suppose it really does depend on what people and society see as acceptable. I mean, in Korea, eating dogs is normal practice. They eat dogs as we eat chickens. It isn't acceptable in this country and we have been socialised into thinking it isn't a very nice thing to do, and so this opinion has stuck.

There - theorectical lecture over.

Not to yopu specifically, but I think you are being a bit unfair to G.

I know that in the states they do have some very strict zoning laws, and restrictions on dog ownership, and that debarking is done usually to fall in with rather strict anti noise rules in built up areas.

In a lot of cases it seems debark or don't own a dog. It seems to be done in some states more than others, like California for example, and is almost a must with vocal breeds!

Also it doesn't stop the dogs barking depending on how it is done, it just takes the resopnance away! They can still wine etc, but have a gruff old dog bark.