I watched "It's me or the dog" for the first time this week. I've never before seen or heard of the compressed air spray the trainer used to discourage the little sweetheart from savaging the visitors - with great effect :D :D.
If anyone remembers, my Luke was barking at other dogs at ringcraft, and I used a water spray (Jif lemon...) a couple of times and it worked! Unfortunately he is now barking at other dogs he meets in our neighbourhood...I suspect he views the entire area as his territory...:-( :-(  and twice recently he's done it to horses as well..(horses with riders).no, he wasn't socialised with horses as a puppy, they only seem to have appeared round here recently. I have tried taking the water spray on walks, but it tends to leak & I end up soaking wet....so, has anyone tried this air spray and do you think it would distract our Luke from his noisiness?

We've got a can we use for nooks and crannies on the pc.  I have never thought of using it for a dog (not that I have need) until I saw that programme last night.  It was effective!

So - where do you get it from, please?

Mine comes from an office supplier but you can get it in any computer shop, PC World, Staples, Office World, etc.

OR LOOK ON EBAY TOO

What a wonderful behaviourist Victoria Stillwell is!!! NOT.  Why on earth do you have to resort to using gadgets to train your dog?  Why not invest in some good training lessons and learn how to motivate your dog without having to scare it out of its wits.

At the beginning of Its me or the dog we saw a very disturbed little dog.  After the treatment at the hands of VS, we saw a very disturbed and very oppressed little dog.  Anybody who advocates that type of behaviour modification in my opinion should not call themselves a canine behaviourist or trainer.  Absolutely appalling.  And the bad thing is is that so many people will not be able to see the signs of suppression in that little dog and think her methods are wonderful.  God help all the poor suspecting dogs out there waiting for the VS treatment.

i think you may be in a minority!  i dont see how a peep from a horn or a puff of air could possibly have scared the terrifying teddy pom pom out of his wits!
he also looked a content little dog at the end not an oppressed one.
to be fair to VS this family was at the end of its tether, it was either control teddy pom pom or maybe have him put to sleep. I  applaud her!

Hi I have to totally agree withyou after watching the first programme in the series that was enough for me, and the more i hear the more i dislike her views and training methods.A rolled up news paper doesnt seem to be much to some people but if constantly used on a dog my would that dog know what was going to happen and start showing fear every time it saw a news paper.

The person I felt most sorry for in the scenario was the husband...:-( how he'd lasted so long, goodness only knows.

A training aid I read of years ago had you saying a word that starts with "F" as whenever you do you breath out a little puff of air.  And apparently dogs don't like our breath any better than we like theirs.  Well, that's the theory anyway.  Worked on our springer when she tried to get too close when we were eating.  But some dogs think you are offering a sample of whatever you had to eat recently and get even more interested. 

Phooey.  What, your first thought was a different word?

Mm...mmm...I suppose with Luke being quite a tall lab I could bend down near enough for him to feel the puff of air....but my first dogs were Cavalier litter brothers who were nightmare barkers when they were on lead & saw another dog...I think I would have had to have been a contortionist...rofl...but of course in those days there was neither the web nor instructional TV programmes - how did we ever manage

The same compressed air i use to power my tools? Pretty dangerous if so , if it got into your dogs eyes the bubbles may stop his heart worse even fatality.

I thought the air spray idea was brilliant and certainly no worse than the water spray that I use regularly on my dogs when they are yapping or doing something else they shouldnt.  I dont think anybody would say any of my dogs are repressed or scared.  My parents dogs and my early dogs have also been smacked with the newspaper and none of them were ever shrinking violets.  It is just now opinions on training methods have changed with dogs the same as they have with children.  When I was little people used to give their children a smack on the backside if they played up but nowadays it is frowned upon.  I dont advocate beating a dog but I know that with my lot if they are mid barking fit if I come in and shake a water spray they all scatter and the noise ceases immediately.  If that means they are repressed then so be it they are but I think my neighbours and family would rather live next door to repressed dogs than ones who yap the place down. Not all dogs are motivated by food or toys.

I have watched this programme and a lot of what she says is similiar technics to what you regularly read about.  Distract the dog when it is doing something naughty.  Quite honestly IMO the only one to blame for the poms attitude is the woman in the house who had turned it into a bratt.

We use compressed air at work to clean machines, and I personally use it to clean my PC.  I didn't see the programme last night, (I've only seen it once) and from what I hear on here today, I shan't be bothering to see it ever again.  Using a can of compressed air on your dog is, IMO, very dangerous.  Don't do it.  This advice from VS to millions of dog owners glued to their TVs was irresponsible.  Would you squirt compressed air into the faces of your children and babies?     

She did say several times that she only used it near the dog, not at the dog. I didn't think he looked oppressed at the end, but much happier to let the humans take charge. Fancy calling a dog Teddy Pom Pom though!!!!!!!! I agree, it's the husband I felt sorriest for!

Sorry, but I still can't agree with it's use.  In the wrong hands it is dangerous.  Why not stick to a water spray? :)

what the different from conpressed air and this anti barking collars  that have a spray,

At no time was it ever suggested that the compressed air should be used ON the dog, only near.

I agree with the other poster, there was very little that was going to change Teddy pom-pom, remember one method doesn't suit all dogs and there will be some for who these methods were not appropriate.  This really was the last chance for the family to improve their situation and I'm afraid I wouldn't have been anywhere near as generous towards that beastly dog!

The water spray does not work with all dogs and it has often been commented on here that for long haired dogs it is not always suitable.  You can use a hose pipe on my beagle and it doesnt bat a eyelid in fact to be honest nothing bothers her! 

I think it is basically the same principal as the anti bark collar and it was quite clearly demonstrated that the air was not right in the dogs face. 

You are all talking about using gadgets!!!  WHat about using reward based training methods like clicker?  I taught my dogs to bark and then I taught them to be quiet.  Now if they bark I say quiet and they know what I mean.  IMO if you are using water sprays, shaking cans or compressed air (beggar the thought!) you are essentially damaging the relationship you have with your dog.  Sure, it may work, but who wants a dog that is scared when it sees a water spray, newspaper etc., etc.,   I certainly don't!!!!!  THe reason teddy pom pom was the way he was was because he had no guidelines and no rules.  VS never once used positive reinforcement - only aversives.  What difference does it make to a dog if you pretend to eat a crisp from its bowl?  THat theory served its purpose years ago and was found to be invalid.  THe little dog at the end WAS confused and suppressed.  IMO he was actually frightened to step over the doorstep for fear of what would happen to him.  You cannot blame a dog for its behaviour - you blame the owner.  In this case the owners were definitely at fault as is the same with all the other programmes I have seen on this series.  You only get the dog you deserve.  If you put the work in with the dog you will have a well mannered dog that is a pleasure to live with.  I should know, I have 4 and it hasn't been easy!!!  Please try to look at the wider picture here.  There are many dogs throughout the country that will be suffering following this TV program.  This lady lives in the past and if that is where you want to live then that is up to you but things have moved on leaps and bounds and this is what should be being aired on TV.  Not outdated methods that at best are irresponsible and at worst dangerous in the hands of the inexperienced.  Every dog is an individual and you have to understand their needs and the reasons behind their behaviour.  This lady does not.  The dog may be well behaved but, believe me, he is certainly not happy.  I know that because I love dogs BUT I also understand them!

Annie

As much as i like using positive methods you have to remember that we not just taking about a barking dog in this programme, but one that bites. THe cure had to be quick and effective for 2 reasons, 1 it is not acceptable for the dog to bite anyone whilst you work on the problem, and 2 because the owner is hardly likely to carry on with any training, which would take time and effort, more than they had in the programme. Lets face it the owner didn't seem to see anything wrong in her husband being bitten when he wants to get into his own bed!!
VS did say that the spray shouldn't be used in the dogs face, just near the dog. And imo if it stopped a dog being pts for being aggressive then it was worth doing. I personally think the programme is a lot better than most dog programmes i've seen. At least she is pointing out what isn't acceptable and making the public realise that dogs need training and looking after. Ok it may not all be methods you agree with, but everyone has different ideas and she hasn't actually jerked any dogs with chains or smacked any of them so at least it is alot better than methods used to be!

Also what if your dog is not reward orientated.  The dog was fussy with food as stated in the programme.  I have tried every treat under the sun to reward my beagle and it is not interested in food or silly toys.  Every dog has different ways of being disciplined which work.  I cannot discipline the beagie in the same way I can the dallies are it doesnt work. 

I am afraid having read so much about it on here I was expecting total crap what in fact I saw was a lot of the methods which I have read about put into practise.  I do feel sorry for the family but I cannot for the life of me imagine my husband allowing a dog in the bed which tried to bite him!!

I agree Thomas. When I read on here about the programme etc I was already feeling negative towards it, then I watched it and realised that alot of what she says and does we actually advise on here and many trainers/behaviuorists use these methods. The spray was basically for the sound, she insisted that it was not pointed at the dog, only near enough for it to hear. Reward training is fab, but unfortunatly does not work on every dog, and what is wrong with using 'gadgets' if they work? Times are moving on, things cant always stay the same, as with technology.

This dog was dangerous, I dont care how big it was it was still dangerous, something quickly had to be done, and if I was the husband I would have banned people from visiting for their own safety or left my wife, she clearly didnt care.

Compressed air IS dangerous , it shouldn't be used directly on human or animal contact. If you had a cut on your hand , the compressed air would cause bubbles in the blood which can lead to heart-attack feelings and death. Even worse , if your using it as a correction and spray it in your dogs face it could get into his eye and get into his bloodstream. BAD!

Its basically like saying spraying rat poision near a dogs face isn't bad

MannyG can you please point out the relevance of your post above to what the behaviourist/trainer showed on the program. To be frank I see the content of your post as relevant as saying if you put a collar and lead on a mans neck and you can hang him.

Gadgets??? I am surprised that all the trainers and behaviourists who frequent here have not done any shouting about that one.
ALL training is done via gadgets, toys are in abundance from the word go, rope tugs, balls, Kongs on ropes, Kongs filled with treats, clickers, whistles, halties, harnesses, treats and hundreds of other 'Gadgets' and what happens this time, WOW one of them works AND saves the dog from rescue, and WOW, some actualy condem the method which works, what can anyone say "

WOW what an eye opener to some peoples thinking patterns "It works so don't use it"

Doesn't it fit in with 'Operant Conditioning' the praises of which are sung high and low? any animal learns something as the result of the consequence of a behaviour! thats the theory.

Before the trainer, ES, intervened the consequences TO THE DOG of biteing etc were rewarding and probably increase some behaviours (which happend here)

After the intervention of the trainer/behaviourist the consequences of the dog biteing TO THE DOG were punishing (it does not like the hiss) and decreased the behaviour.

And WOW- guess what else conforms to the operant theory NOT biteing is NOW reward behaviour TO THE DOG.

It is time things like this were seen on TV, this dog was a running certainty to be in rescue by now.

Mannyg has not read what is being wrote or obviously seen the programme if he had he would realise that NOWHERE DID THEY SAY TO BLOW COMPRESSED AIR IN THE FACE OF THE DOG. 

Manny lives in Canada - hence will neither have seen the show nor the demonstration ;)  Equally, Manny probably does not appreciate that the female purporting to be a behaviourist was using a small can of compressed air - rather than an "air compressor" used for blowing up flat tyres etc :D

Easy to see why he's disturbed by the mental picture, don't you think ;)

ManiG is in Canada!?
so the response has no intellectual basis, says a lot.

Personal remarks are against the TOS on this Forum - perhaps you ought to familiarise yourself with them again Denis ;)

Manny, I severely doubt that compressed air spray from a small can could cause an air embolism. It's only about the same pressure that a deodorant or hairspray is expelled from a can.

Hi Manny,

The "compressed air" was in a small can - similar to a hairspray can your wife would use and not at all like you imagine when comparing it to what you use for your power tools ;)

Personally, although the presenter in fairness made it very clear not to spray it either on or towards the dog, it would not be a "tool" of my own choosing to recommend but it really was not as bad or dangerous as you (quite understandably) imagined.

Regards, Teri :) 

Did you mean me when you said TOS? I made no personal remarks, anyone who comments on something they have not seen and do not know what the actual subject is is not giving an intellectual response,it is a response unrelated to the subject and could well mislead people, what's wrong with that statement?
Are you refering to me as Dennis? If so what do you mean?
Maybe it should be in TOS that people do not make things up.

Is the whole purpose of a water spray and compressed air can not that the dog has NO idea that you were the instigator of such a terrible atrocity! So that the dog flies back to YOU with a "mum, I snapped at the postman and this terrible noise happened as a result!" look on his face? THEN you can ask a simple obedience command such as "sit" and reward from there? I have terrible visions of people rampaging around gardens chasing their dogs with water pistols and air cans when, in actual fact, this kind of defeats the purpose of that particular training method. If used this way, the dog is fearing both you and the pistol/air can. I have no wish for my dogs to fear me.
However, used correctly I believe it has its place alongside reward based training.

If this kind of tool is used, (and i personally would not use it) it would need to be used by an experienced person who is excellent at timing. This still risks problems for the dog. Yes, some dogs esp. small ones may well "improve" but, I'm not sure that this would stop the actual biting if Victoria wasn't there. My feeling is that the dog improved for the cameras but would revert perhaps after they had gone. I would also imagine that a much bigger dog of a different disposition (and biting for a different reason, ie real fear or guarding) would behave in a different way and may next time be worse.

JMO of course.

Lindsay
x

Let's get this straight - the "compressed air" advocated in this programme is the small aerosol type can of air, used for blowing dust away from a computer, etc, isn't it?   NOT the industrial, generated powered compressed air machines used for inflating tyres etc!

I have used a small water spray to discourage our dogs from barking in inappropriate situations - and it has worked, to the extent that now, if Loki or Vinnie are up & barking at golfers whom they deem to have got too close to our garden (and they're STILL about 30ft away :D !) , I just have to SHOW them the spray bottle, for them to accept "Oh, okay - no bark", and settle down on their beds again!   AND I just have to show it to them through a glass door!!!!

Margot

Yes Lokis Mum, it was just a tiny little canister and it was not the fact that compressed air came from it that it was used.
It was used only because it was/is the best tool to get a sudden 'hiss' and because of the press button technology it could be turned off at the instant the dog responded, it was the hiss the behaviourist wanted.
It was the noise which was used as a - 'negative reinforcer'- not the air on the dog - you can get the same small canisters from photo shops for blowing dust off lenses or negative films.
The instant a negative reinforcer is removed - in this case turning off the hiss- it is replaced instantly by a - 'positive reinforcment' - the removal of anything any animal experiences as unpleasant is a positive reinforcement (reward).

I've got a very strange (but humourous in a warped kind of way) picture in my mind of Teddy pom-pom being blow up by a tyre type air compressor!!!!!!

Although I do agree that some dogs can be effectively managed without the use of "gadgets", food is also a gadget and I for one, wouldn't want to be giving that dog food from my hands.  I value my fingers!!

hahahahas, it should have been 'Teddy Boy' I think, mind you if someone had not seen the thing you could easily get the impression from some posts he had been blasted with a
Saturn 5 rocket motor.

Stop it - you're as bad as me! I've got visions of this little furry orange pom balloon floating about the room with a very surprised expression on his face.

My mum's friend had 'Suzy Pom Pom' who was easily as obnoxious as Teddy and I can only think that some people like and encourage their dogs to behave like that. If I remember, Teddy's 'mum' was quite resistant and didn't think there was anything wrong with his behaviour - it was her poor hubby and kids that were at the end of their tethers.

If you are using operant wording, remember that the canister is basically positive punishment (P+) at the end of the day.

(ie adding something the animal will work to avoid, to suppress the behaviour).

Negative reinforcement (R-) is the removal of something the animal will work to avoid to actually strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behaviour.

eg Heeling is often taught by negative reinforcement when using a chain, because there is only one safe place for the dog to walk - becuase, the threat of correction is removed by the animal walking there. For negative reinforcement, an aversive must first be applied, or threatened, and the animal is conditioned to its use even only the once.

The turning off of the hiss is NOT, in operant terms, considered positive reinforcement.

My view is that the canister is used as punishment, (P+) and that the turning off of the hiss is in fact the negative reinforcer.
Negative reinforcement works by making use of escape and avoidance conditioning.

Examples: removal of: ear pinch, check chain jerk, "bad dog", "no", threatening tone, gesture.

Operant terms can be very confusing, it's not easy to use them on a public forum. It's important to understand them thoroughly before attempting to. I try not to use the terms unless others do because to most people they cloud the issue.

Edited: ended up in wrong place, this was my  reply to Info request

Manny, that's true for highly compressed air as used in industry not for the sort of stuff you get in a can.

dogdeli1  - How did you teach your dog to be quiet?

HI Connie

A very simple way to teach a dog not to bark it to teach it to bark.  For instance, if your dog is barking, I would click my clicker and treat.  Then I would keep doing this and add a work i.e. speak!.  Then when the dog was quiet I would click and treat.  I would keep doing this and add the word quiet!  That way the dog knows the difference between "speak" and "quiet".  I can get my dogs to speak on command and be quiet on demand - and that is anywhere!!!!!!!! 

And, by the way to the people who include clickers, whistles, etc., in their term "gadgets".  These are not gadgets these are secondary reinforcers and a very efficient way of training your dog - kindly!!!  I reiterate VS should not be televised as her techniques so far have been at best irresponsible and at worst dangerous.  How many of you really believe that the little dog was cured after 2 weeks?  I can guarantee you that the little dog will slip back into his old ways.  If he had been taught properly what was expected of him in a positive manner - he would work to keep things that way.  When the punishment is taken away the behaviour will recur.  There are no quick fixes with dog training.  To train a dog takes a long time - even longer if you have a dog with behavioural problems.  I really don't think anybody should be proud of the fact that their dogs run and hide because they show them an air can or water pistol.  That simply shows that they are frightened.  And to the other poster who said the whole thing about these aversive techniques is that the dog doesn't recognise it comes from you is correct.  A dog should never know it is coming from you.

New methods of training and behaviour focus on the emotional and bonding process of dog and human.  The most effective and reputable behaviourists in the UK are realising that in order to truly understand your dog and your dog to truly understand you there must be an emotional bond.  How can you have that if you are constantly threatening them with aversives.  Just a thought but a very relevant one!!!

Still classed as 'gadgets' though ;) - before clickers were invented people trained their dogs using their voice and treats and this is still my preferred way to train a dog, the dog knows your voice, understands your commands and knows that when he does right he will get lots of vocal praise and a tasty treat.  And, if we are talking about bonding well with your dog, surely the owner using their voice is much nicer for the dog than a 'click' - horrible sound personally which goes right through me :)

Oh, and when I stated that I tried the water in the face this wasn't done directly in his face but just above his head so that the water fell down in a fine mist which worked well for other dogs I have had stopping them from barking in an instant - however, our boxer loves water and actually loved the feeling of the mist on his face, he actually whines for the shower head to be switched on so that he can have a drink after washing his teeth ! wierd pup :D

HI Boxer Mum

I've used the clicker as an example of secondary reinforcement.  In fact, anything can be used - a word, a phrase, anything.  The clicker is easier because you can capture the behaviour at the exact moment it happens - and the dog knows that there is a tasty treat or a game coming along very soon.  Using your voice is using a secondary reinforcer i.e. capturing the moment!!!!  What I am trying to say is that aversives don't work long term.  As long as a dog KNOWS what is expected of him/her then they are likely to keep working towards a positive reinforcement.  Nothing will ever get me to believe that VS methods of training are scientific - which is what she portrays they are.  Secondary reinforcement is a scientific method and it works.  As I've also said things are now moving away from using food etc., and leaning more towards bonding with your dog.  I am going to a seminar next month with Peter Neville on this very subject so, at the moment, only know a little about it but after next month will be able to give fuller details.

Kind regards
Annie

Like yeah ;)  Been training dogs with my voice and the occasional treat for over 20 years, hasn't failed me yet ;)   Really don't like the clickers though (OH tried it but has gone back to voice training like me) they really are a horrible noise and my springer cross doesn't like them so they are not a positive re-inforcer in this house :D

Hi,

You say you can capture the behaviour with the clicker at all times, I found this very difficult as I did not have the clicker in my hand all the time.  Mine can be naughty or mischievious at any time, eg. while I am hoovering, washing up, generally pottering around at home.  I also taught my boy to "speak" on command, but if he is in the garden barking at foxes or cats on the roof of my shed, it is impossible to stop him barking, and this is when it bothers me the most, well not me but I worry about my neighbours!  I eventually gave up with the clicker, also the noise of it I found very irritating.  I have also put a post on earlier today, training is very difficult in my home as my husband and two boys do not reinforce what I do, I find it very hard. 

Hi there dgibbo

The problem you are having stems from the inconsistency not from clicker training.  Clicker training is just that - training and you do not have to have your clicker with you every minute of the day.  I would suggest that you buy the book Don't shoot the dog by Karen Pryor.  That will explain clicker training to you.  You also don't have to use a clicker you can use a snap of the fingers, a click of a ballpoint pen.  Basically anything that can give a secondary reinforcement i.e. let the dog know that what they did at that time is good!!  The book will help.

I think you will have to have a chat with your husband and family though because unless everyone is singing from the same prayer sheet your dog will never know what is expected of it.  Perhaps you could devise a training plan i.e. what parts of the dog's behaviour you want to modify, then decide how you are going to do it and then sit down with the family and let them know how important it is that they follow your lead - basically because the dog will become out of control if it doesn't start getting some consistency in its life.

I hope this helps you in some way but, if you truly don't like clicker, then take your dog along to a reputable training club - one that uses positive reward methods - and they will be able to train you to train your dog using verbal commands.

Kind regards
Annie

"....if it got into your dogs eyes the bubbles may stop his heart worse even fatality."  I am a little confused by this comment as what could be worse than the heart being stopped ?  Surely heart stopping = fatality

We all use 'gadgets' when training our dogs, be it food, cans of air, whistles....... personally we have found that with our two a quick 'uh uh' works very well, tried the water in the face from a plant spray but our boxer loves it and tries to catch the droplets :)

Well really i haven't seen the program but 'compressed air' in a mans view is much different then the little spray cans you use to clean keyboards , as teri said. I have a 80 gallon cast-iron air compressor in my garage , which came to my mind and would surely be inhumane. Really now i am only replying to the first couple of posts which didn't read that they were little spray cans :p

What if somebody searched the boards and thought an air compressor was the right way to correct behaviour. My compressor would blow your dogs eyes out.

A pronged collar is a gadget that gives quick corrections with discomfort , but im sure you don't agree with it? I won't get into that..