How would you guys feel about having a dog who is the result of a father/daughter mating. All the research has been done on dogs in pedigree etc, but wondered if youd feel that it was a no no

If the Daughter's Dam was an outcross for the Sire, and the breeder could tell me what virtues they were trying to strengthen, and there were no major faults behind the lines, all relevant health tests were OK and I knew what the breeder said was true:), then I would have no problem with a puppy, but would, of course, look for a compatible outcross for the next generation.
If I couldn't do all of these things, then I would walk away.

I would never do this or buy a pup from such a close relation, all sorts could happen!

Only if there are 'all sorts' already there! ;)

Mmmmm..... IMO too close.  

I've known many top breeders do this and end up with spectacular dogs.  I wouldn't do it personally but have seen only the good results of this kind of mating, though there again who would admit to the bad?

Crikey, I am surprise that people do this but then again if it produces some good pups I can't argue - each to their own!

A puppy from that mating, assuming quality and no serious faults as we said;) could be dominant at producing his type to an outcross bitch with a hotch potch pedigree.

Agree that if all is as you said for quality / faults behind the lines, it could produce something great, but personally I feel that's a bit too close. Father to niece would be better, or half-brother to half-sister like my boy.

Hi Val,
So say,,  if you had got a completly outcross bitch, and mated an excellent, breed, not linebreed,
dog. then his daughter was mated with him, What would be the chance of getting what you know,
you wan't from your litter. Would it be to much of a gamble....

Regards
Denese 

In a rush so hope that I've read it right!! :D

My experience is - Hotch Potch!  Because you've got an outcrossed bitch (not line bred to a quality dog) mated to a quality but not line bred dog.  That doesn't mean that you won't produce a stunning puppy, but I plan to produce a whole litter of stunning puppies!! ;)

Each time that you outcross you will produce a mixed litter.  Some will take after Mum, some after Dad, some after Grandparents etc.  So some will be better than others!;)

When dog and bitch are line bred to a quality dog, you will produce a more even litter, with more input from the quality dog and therefore with more quality pups???   Even when I outcross for new genes, then I still use the same 'type' of dog and pedigree to maintain what I'm striving to produce.

If you have a complete outcross (quality) bitch, and mate her to a (quality) line bred dog, you would hope that the dog would be dominant, but the bitch would only put only sound genes into the puppies.

The most important thing in ANY mating, whether outcrossing, line breeding or inbreeding, is to TRULY KNOW as many dogs in both dogs' pedigrees as possible, because each and every dog (and their siblings, of course) will have an influence on the pups produced! :D

People can quote you genetic statistics until the cows come home, but they are only probable statistics not possible statistics.  At the end of the day all matings are a gamble but the odds can be improved depending on the knowledge of the breeder but at the end of the day, luck will play a part too.

Hi Val,
That is what I wanted to know! thanks for being honest. It's what I kind
of thought. As you say breeding any.. dogs can be a gamble, and luck!
To linebreed could have pups with problems.

Regards
Denese

:)  Denese, the most important thing in all matings is knowledge of what is behind the dogs involved!  That's why I smile (sometimes grimace!) when I read posts saying "I've got a male and female that I'm going to mate.  I've looked at the pedigrees and they are OK!)  Mostly they mean that they have checked that there isn't a similar relative in both 5 generation pedigrees, not that they know every dog on there!!!

I took 2 years asking English judges going to the continent and asking continental breeders whose honest opinions I trust before I was willing to take the small gamble left to use an imported dog and get fresh blood into my line.

Hi Val,
I have seen some beauties, that are line breed, but! in my breed, I have seen some
loosing,[in my opioion,] things like, the thik coat, and temprement. also I think some
look very spidary. Snow dogs are suposed to be strong, thik coats, and man's best
Companion. My breed of dog has been in our family, since 1930's, But, mine were just
companions, until now, Now I have more time and have stopped to
take a good look on how the breed has changed over time. There are some good things,
Also some things are being losed. I would like to bring a little diffrence, back into the breed.
I do know what I would like. Its doing my home work on how to achieve it.
Regards
Denese

Sure, but it depends what they were line bred to.  If they've been line bred to dogs with thin coats, poor temperament and poor bone, whether they are show winners or not, then that's what you'll produce.  You don't 'magic' qualities, good or bad.  Close breeding will only amplify what is already there.:)
I frequently hear that in breeding produces problems - well it will only produce problems that are already behind the chosen parents.

I don't know how to say it any differently but the most important thing in ANY type of breeding, is to REALLY know the ancestors in depth.:)

Hi Val,
I get your point!!
Regards
Denese

Line breeding in cavaliers sadly has increased the likelyhood of the offspring having Syringohydromyelia One of mine has this & I know which dogs have been line to that were carriers & I wuld not wish SHM on anyone's dogs. It isn't just in Cavaliers but the other breeds are keeping very quiet & passing off SHM as something totally different( these are Labrador Retriever, Weimaraner, Fox Terrier, Lhasa Apso & Pomeranian. )

Hi Moonmaiden,

It is quite a responsiblity, especially when people are not very honest with you.
As even the best breeder isn't going to willingly tell you there problems.
Its a bit of a mind game sometimes!  I am learning this! Linebreeding and inbreeding has its place,
but! new blood does need to be breed in now and again.
I also know different breeders breed for different thing in there dogs.
But! in my breed Samoyeds, I hate to see them breeding small bones spidery dogs.
They would never have the strengh to pull the sedges, they are snow dogs.
Regards
Denese

>To linebreed could have pups with problems

So can outcrossing, where there are even more 'unknowns' to be researched.

To mate a mediocre bitch with a mediocre dog, however unrelated, won't produce anything more than a mediocre litter. You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear!

Hi jeangienie,
I do know! but! I also know that too inbreed could cause things like cleph palate,
or dead pups, and many other problems. How can you guarantee..... you can't!
If it was that easy there would be pefect dogs in all breeds.
Regards
Denese

According to this article there are many causes of cleft palate - too much vitamin A supplementation (ie cod liver oil) being a major one. Apparently it's frequently seen in the children of diabetics. Absorption, stillborn puppies and neo-natal deaths can happen with mongel litters - it can't be blamed on linebreeding! ;)

Remember, all the cheetahs in the world are so closely inbred that they're described as being descended from one female and her cubs who survived the last Ice Age.

Hi jeangenie,
I know what your saying but, a lot of breeders that loose there litters
for what ever reason are not likly to tell you!
So even in all the checking there may be things that you will not find out.
In the wild life many animals die only the strong survived. So you are not going
to see the weak.
Regards
Denese

Hi Jeangenie,

The article is a good one. especially if you are going to breed, I wouldn't
give my dogs Add. Vits. anyway, as I feel they have a good diet.
But! as it says it can be inherited. But! it would be hard to find out where from,
because no one is going to admit having a problem litter are they?
As there Studs, are probly top show dogs, and have a lot invested in them.
Regards
Denese

Hi Denese,

I hope you don't mind me commenting on this thread but it seems on reading your replies that you have quite strong views against even common practice line breeding although perhaps I'm reading that wrongly.  It may be that you have had personal bad experience with such a mating or had a lack of information provided to you by someone you trusted as a breeder but FWIW I genuinely don't think the mainstream of show breeders are untrustworthy at all.

Top breeders become that because they have owned, bred, campaigned successfully and bred on yet again from quality stock in health, type and temperament.  Yes, they may occasionally produce a dog that doesn't rate highly enough in one of those areas but it is not in the interests of such breeders to hide serious problems that are readily passed on - after all their reputations, which may have taken a decade or two, or three, are at stake so IME they are far more likely for eg. to withdraw a dog from stud if a suspected inherited fault appeared than to keep quiet about it.  They no doubt have other similarly, but not identically bred good specimen dogs which can be stood as an alternative.  Likewise they tend to have differing "branches" in their bitch lines hence if something were to go far wrong in one, they would (hopefully) not lose their breeding lines entirely.

My apologies if I've misinterpreted your posts.  Regards, Teri :) 

Hi Terri,

No! I know some excellent breeders, with beautiful spec. of the breed.
It must be the way I write things, I find it hard sometimes to put into words what I mean.
I just pick peoples brains to see if I can find out more than I know.
But! I must also say some breeds are not so forthright. That makes me concerned.
Even at shows they are ignorante and rude. The best is they haven't got the best at
the end of there lead.
If it wasn't for linebreeding I wouldn't have my beautiful Boy.
Regards
Denese

Hi Denese,

Was just about to reply to yours when I read Val's post which I think covers about everything really :P

>I must also say some breeds are not so forthright. That makes me concerned. Even at shows they are ignorante and rude. The best is they haven't got the best at the end of there lead

As to the above, they are not the ones to ask in the first place ;)  As Val suggests, find a mentor who produces what you personally are drawn to - over time when your interest is assessed as genuine and a mutually trusting and respectful friendship or even just dogs only relationship has developed, you will find information is much more readily available.

That's how I've learned what I know to date and why I continue to chew the ears of those who's achievements I most admire.  Best wishes, Teri :)  

Sadly for Cavaliers it is the top breeders who have line bred to carriers & have not been open about what their dogs have produced. Only one top breeder in Cavaliers has MRI scanned their stock in any depth & nearly all have the malformation if not SHM. The people who have used their dogs/line bred to their dogs are producing SHM carriers/sufferers & they are keeping quiet

My dogs brother(from a sufferer out of a carrier ergo at the very least a carrier & at worst like my dog a sufferer)is being used at stud with the approval of the breeders of the dogs ! The same goes for their mother, thankfully there have been no puppies from their mother that I know of apart from the ones bred by my dogs breeders)she has now been sold as a brood bitch !

One of the very top kennels has carriers in their breeding program that are producing SHM sufferers & they do not promote screening for it !

There is one definitely screened clear  dog(from a very old established kennels) & one other but that does not mean they are not carriers of course

The Cavalier breeders will have to bite the bullet & use out crosses that may or may not be top quality dogs/bitches if they are to stop the rot of the spread of SHM. It is believed by the researchers that every show cavalier(& possibly all cavaliers)have at least one line to a carrier if not more so outcrossing is going to have to be done sometime. One of my boys is very tightly line bred on one side & the other is a total outcross He is going to be scanned this winter & paws crossed he will at least not have SHM & even better may be clear, not that I want him to be used at stud, but for the knowledge he does not have this cursed problem

Denese, the longer that you are involved in a breed, then the more you learn about what's going on and who you can trust!!!  Newcomers expect the oldies to immediately disclose everything that they've taken the time, trouble and tears to learn in over many years!  It doesn't work like that.  But if you were to ask a stud dog owner if their dog had ever produced "whatever you are concerned about" before, then I would hope that you would get an honest reply.  If you think that they are not truthful then I wouldn't use their dog - simple!

With 20+ years worth of contacts, I hear all sorts of things but am not going to slag off anyone else's dog, and certainly not to newbies that I don't know!!  There are certainly lines that I wouldn't touch with a barge poll, but it takes many years to know what really going on.  I know some really lovely people who've used dogs that I know to have/carry serious faults.  They've produced awful problems, because they just use a dog that they like, who may well have produced quality, but they don't ever think of asking about the sorts of things that I ask about before I even considering using a dog!! :o

Do you have an experienced and successful person in your breed who produces the qualities that you like?  Perhaps you could share your concerns with them and then maybe they can suggest lines/studs, or even a quality brood bitch that could give you what you are looking for instead of starting with whatever you have and trying to start from scratch, and blind too :)

Hi Val,
I can quite understand. I wish I had  had the time to take it more seriously when
Mom and Dad were alive as they used to show and there knowledge was very wide.
But! as I said I have also always had Sams
But! I went in to Childcare, which with family,ect; ect; Its only now they have grown up
and I am remarried, I have time to do what I want too. I have been to shows and had a good
look at what is out there. I found it to be a very closed shop for a few years. I am very up front.
Will speak to most people.
I have met some lovely breeders, those are the one's that have advised and helped me.
I was suprised how much I hadn't realised had gone in when growing up with the breed, suppose
it's always been a way of life I had never thought about.
Regards
Denese

I found it to be a very closed shop for a few years
I've been involved with a number of breeds to varying degrees, and of course they are all different, but if you are genuinely interested, put in the time to be seen at shows, and are seen to be honest and straightforward, then eventually you'll be accepted on that side of the fence.  Then of course, there's the other side, as with all of human areas, where others will prefer to do things differently!! ;)

You're right.  To real dog breeders, it IS a way of life!!  It certainly was my way of life for about 15 years as my daughter was growing up because it was her who was particularly interested in the showing side.  Now, having served my apprenticeship, I go to shows less often, but my interest in the breeding side, pedigrees, what dogs are producing what qualities and what problems is as keen as it ever was! :)

That is interesting as the only human I know with a severe cleft palate is my diabetic friends younger daughter.

if i liked the line,knew the line & whats in it & trusted the breeders ,who were doing it for the right reasons,then i would

i have only seen two of these matings and in both cases the pups had to be put down due to spina bifida....seems that two unrelated incidents produced the same result...would prefer grandfather to granddaughter or even grandmother to grandson....

You would have had to been in your breed for sometime before considering a mating like that, and you'd definitely have to know all the generations before so you'd need to be an old timer to know what you were trying to achieve in that mating, plus the possible outcome.

Warm regards Susan

My rescue girl's sire is the offspring of inbreeding between a mother/son mating.   The sire was an English lined GSD that was mated to a German lined bitch.  The progeny was weak in bone, foxy looking, and weak in temperament for a GSD.  My girl has 2 genetic conditions so far, HD (partially genetic) and PRA.  She's a lovely dog, very sensitive and intelligent but she's not a good example of the breed. 

But I can see Val's point of view.  I think with me, my main concern is health.