I have a 5 year old uncastrated male great dane.  He is quite a nervous dog and has always looked a little skinny, but just recently he seems to have lost more weight.  Has anyone any ideas how I can get him to gain a little more weight so he looks less like a bag of bones? He has never been one for eating lots - not even treats.
On advise we are gradually changing his normal adult diet to a "puppy" diet.  We also wondered about having him castrated - would this help him gain weight?
Any advice before my next vet visit would be great.

One of my girls needs to gain a little weight, I e-mailed Burns as this is the food I feed all my dogs and this is what they said:

Add Canine Extra or Active diets to the maintenance diet she is currently eating.
We would usually suggest introducing the food and feeding at a ratio of 50/50 with the maintenance diet.

When was he last wormed? On whose advice are you changing his diet from adult to puppy?

What food have you been feeding him as this can play a huge part on how your dog looks ? I would not put him on a puppy diet as most puppy diets are too high in protein for danes and a t 5 years old he is way past the stage of being a puppy. Some danes are built on a taller and narrow line than others. Do you know what any of his brothers or sisters look like at ? Could give you a better idea as to how he could look if yo usee what I mean. But if you wish for him to put on more weight then I would be tempted to try "satin balls",  I am told they are great for putting on weight.

Margaret

First a big thank you to everyone for their comments.

Shadow has always been a tall and slender looking dane.  But just worried lately as he suddenly seems to look scrawny.  He's always been fed on Supadog lamb and rice complete food with a tin of butchers tripe to entice him to eat it.  I am changing his diet gradually by putting him onto a big breed puppy biscuit and fresh mince beef - he definately has been eating better the last 2days.  I don't want him to put on tons of weight - just to look less like a malnutritioned than he does at the mo.  His spine ribs and even hip bones are all very prominent.
No idea what his brothers and sisters are like. We lost contact with the breeders when they moved house a few years ago.

He has always been wormed regularly too.  I have no idea why he is losing this weight.  We will be going to the vets this week. Just wanted other peoples opinions also.

Any idea if getting him castrated may help lose the "bag of bones" look?

What on earth are "satin balls"?

A good food for putting on weight is tripe, have and a lot of folk use Skinners Dog Food and Skinners Ruff & Ready for keeping body weight on.  I know a lot of people have trouble keeping weight on their danes. I have always found it takes a lot longer to put the weight back that it took for it to fall off. Now why can't that happen to me ????????????

For satin ball click on the search up on the right hand side and type in satin ball, a recipe can be found. I have never tried it on my dogs as I seem to have the opposite problem with my danes !

Hope this is of some help

Margaret

I have the same problem with weight with Willis. He is slim - and anything that upsets him or worries him makes him thinner! Phoebe is the opposite, have to work to keep it off her :rolleyes: :D

Thanks for the advice again. But unfortunately things are looking more serious at the mo.  I took Shadow to the vets today as he as suddenly developed really bad runny poos (all over the kitchen floor in the middle of the night - something he has never done before - and from dane height it had spread literally everywhere)
The vet was very concerned about his weight loss and also said he can feel  enlarged kidneys though his skin.  I have been instructed to take urine and runny poo samples to vets tomorrow.  They are testing him for kidney failure.  He has been a little more lethargic for the last couple of weeks but I never imagined it could be this serious.  I am trying to stay positive until I get the results which should hopefully be late tomorrow afternoon.
He has also had an injection to try and stop the squirts (can't spell dioreah!) and I've been advised to feed him 3 or 4 very small meals a day of pasta or rice with a little tiny amount of Royal Canins tinned chicken and rice (supplied by the vet) to add some flavour, As usual, Shadow turned his nose up at the first helping this evening. Will try again in the morning.
I will keep you all posted when I know anymore.

Hi Shads,

Sorry that you have such a worrying time ahead of you waiting for test results.  Please God his condition will not be linked to kidney failure - there are a number of reasons for dramatic weight loss and a hands on exam by a professional although able to give clues is not a definitive diagnosis. 

Will put you on my prayer list tonight (there are a few on there at the moment :( ) and hope that tomorrow you have a less distressing report.  God Blesss, Teri xxx

Thanks to Teri for the kind words and prayers.
Have had Shadows urine test results today. Here goes.....
No glucose - so not diabetes
Small amount of protein which cannot rule out possibility of kidney problems but cannot confirm them either.
Large amount of bile found in urine sample - been told this could now be a liver problem. This could be as little as a nasty infection or as bad as a tumour.  Shadow has been back to the vets tonight for blood samples. Results should follow tomorrow.  His temperature is a little high at 103. His poo sample has been sent off and results for that should be here by Monday.  His urine sample has been sent to a clinic in London for more extensive testing.
Blood sample was a nightmare. The vet tried 6 times in one front leg and 4 times in the other before drawing any blood.  Said this is down to Shadow having low blood pressure.  Was told Shadow is a very poorly dog.
Shadow had not eaten anything for 3 days. But since the vet trip we have managed to coax him to eat a small amount of freshly cooked chicken - so its a start.
He just looks so sorry for himself and has very little energy.  Why, oh why did I not realise there was anything so seriously wrong.
I'll keep you all posted.

Thinking of you and Shadow - ther is something very special about Danes and I really feel for you going through this.

Please Shads don't blame yourself, there is no way you could have know. We all have our fingers crossed for you and Shadow.

Margaret

Hi Shads,

Will keep him on the prayers - somebody up there must tune in now and again ;)

I know it's hard, but try and stay positive.  When having blood panels etc carried out, vets have a long list of possible things and if you can have them checked off one by one that's a BIG + :)  If he needs more bloods, suggest they take the sample from his neck rather than his leg - TBH I'm surprised that they used his leg anyway.

The high temp will hopefully be the result of an infection only - again, try and focus on that because it is more easily and quickly rectified.  However if it is something more serious there are huge breakthroughs in all types of meds etc which can mean successfully managing a condition even if not able to cure it entirely :)  

Last but by no means least don't beat yourself up with  >>"Why, oh why did I not realise there was anything so seriously wrong"<<   Any and every one of us can fail to spot signs which to a vet or specialist may seem obvious.  The simple fact is that dogs which have always been fussy eaters or never been great doers regardless of what we feed them easily slip through the average family net - it's not neglect or lack of interest on our parts, just that we see them day in and day out and changes can be very gradual hence less promptly noticed ;)

Where there's life there's hope and he's getting intensive and aggressive investigation which is a giant leap in the right direction.
Thinking & praying for you all.  Teri xxx
 

Poor Shadow, of course you couldn't realise he wasn't just a bit skinny. It's not your fault. You did the right thing getting him to the vet as soon as he had the runny poos. Keep us posted!

Thanks again for the words of encouragment.

Next update. But not alot to report.

Phone call from vets today.  White blood cell count is higher than it should be. Bloods have been sent to a lab in London for further testing. Also still waiting on further tests of the bile found in urine and the squidgy poo sample.  The vets have decided to start Shadow on a course of strong antibiotics incase it turns out to be "just a nasty infection".  So in a way I'm starting to feel a little more positive.  Can't remember if I've already told you his new "skinny" weight.  Weighed him last night. He was 57kg. Last weight recorded on records was in March at 66kg - and even then he wasn't a particularly weighty looking dog.

On the plus side - he has eaten two small meals of freshly cooked chicken and rice - quite proud of myself for cooking it all - I'm a devoted vegetarian and hate handling the raw stuff!  But he turned his nose up at this evenings meal.  The cats have had a feast though - climbing onto his tall feeding stand to pig out on Shadows gourmet dinner!!  Bet they never eat cat food again.

I'll let you all know when I hear back from all the further test results.

Oh I do hope he starts to pick up soon :)

We will keep fingers and all paws crossed here for some good news ;)

Lucy
xx

Thanks for the update - hoping for good news when all the tests are finally back.  Best wishes, Teri :)

Hi
  My Basset had weight loss and lack of apetite, and I found that when he was off his food, when I made him some scrambled egg he did manage to get that down and he managed to keep it down.
You could even add some rice to bulk the meal out a bit.
I hope he gets better.
Carol

I've been told to feed him any white meat and fish and to bulk it out with rice, pasta or potatoes.  He is still having diarreah though.  Do you think egg would help.  He's always been partial to an egg or two. Don't want to upset his stomach anymore than it already is though. Scrambled or raw?
Still no results back.  Looks like it will be Monday now.

Hi Shads
I think if you try a little portion of scrambled egg made with goats milk but no fat of any kind, and he keeps this down and it dosen't make his diahorea worse you could gradually increase the amount.
Hope he gets better soon
Carol

Hi again Shads,

Re. additions to his diet - both kidney and liver diseases (which hopefully he doesn't have but there are indications) need low quantity but high quality protein in the diets so personally I'd not add egg.  White fish or cottage cheese would be my preference as the only protein sources as both are high quality, low fat, easily digested and broken down most readily by bile acids etc. - more so than even chicken.

Just how I'd approach things of course - perhaps someone else may have further info.  Still rooting for you both here!

Best wishes, Teri xxx  :) 

Thanks again for the advice.
Going to check with vets about eggs. Don't want to make anything worse.
Shadow is definately a little perkier at the mo.  He's managing 3 small meals a day of chicken and rice or chicken and pasta.  He even seems to have a little more energy than the past few days.  Still has very sloppy poo's but don't think I can class them as the severe diarreah he had before.  Maybe the antibiotics he is on are actually helping somewhat.  Still keeping fingers crossed for good test results.  He's definately not going downhill at the mo.

Back again with next update.
Shadow has now gone off his food again.  Got some turkey mince to try with his pasta tonight so keeping fingers crossed.
Had to take him back to vets last night for more blood tests. Apparently the others clotted before they got to the lab for further testing.  The vet phoned me today to say his white blood cell count is back down again - but not as low as it should be.  Shadow is now booked into the vets on Thursday to have a scan.  The vet is concerned about his stomach area feeling so tight and hard.  So hopefully I'll have some more news then,
Shadow is just so tired all the time, just lays on my bed all day feeling sorry for himself. Havn't seen a waggy tail in ages.  I am so desperate to see him back to normal and happy again.  Can dogs get depressed?

I would say Danes do, our boy was really poorly a while ago and is still on AB's to fight off a nasty infection.(7weeks now) he i am sure was around the 66kg mark too but he is very slim built but young yet so i don't worry too much.
When he was ill he didn't want to eat and lost muscle/weight rapidly it looked horrendous on him.
He hardly moved at all just wanted to snooze the day away and was terribly lethargic as you would expect if he was ill.
I just had to tempt him with anything and everything and once the AB's kicked in i found his appetite improved a little every day and he is nearly back to his average weight, exercise wise he still can't do more than 5mins but he's slowly building himself up.

Fingers crossed for shadowxx

Well tomorrow is scan day.  Its all I can think about.  My vet phoned today to ask how Shadow was.  Said he'd be looking for possible growths or tumours during the scan. I got off phone and cried and cried.  Got home from work and Shadow looks even skinnier than ever.  Still not eating anything. It was his spine and hip bones that were sticking out yesterday. Today the only part of his body with any bodyfat shape seems to be his head and neck.  He looks so sad and miserable.  Also last night and today he's been lying on the bed making strange noises. Not sure how to describe them though. Definately not a "pained" sound but more like a growl or very low purring noise. But its pretty loud. He's not holding himself in strange positions so don't think he is in pain.  Think he may be doing it so we know he is feeling sorry for himself (my tears are starting again now).  Just praying we actually find out something tomorrow.  At least we will know where this is all heading.

Poor Shadow, we're all thinking of you. :-( Let us know how the scan goes. (hug)

Not good results.  The vet has found a mass in his abdomen.  Possibly a tumour. 50/50 chance of surviving an op to look into it further. 50/50 chance of it being operable. If not treated he has between 2-4 weeks to live.  Have come home with antibiotics and steroid tablets. But don't know whether I should go for the op.  What would you guys do. I need help and advice and I need it now.  My vet said if it was his dog he would do the op - but only because he'd be curious to find out more about the mass.  He said they could do op and if it was bad they could put him to sleep at the same time.  I don't know what to do.

Shads, I'm devastated for you but I'd definitely go for the op.  50/50 is still good enough odds IMO when the prognosis is that if untreated you will lose him in a very short time.

If nothing is done and in a week or so he starts to go rapidly downhill or appear to suffer you will torture yourself about whether or not you've done the right thing by not having the surgery.   At least with surgery he has a chance and, God forbid that things are worse than suspected when he's opened up, he can drift away.

If you want a chat, pm me.  {{{{hugs}}} 'n stuff to you and Shadow.  Luv Teri x

Oh, poor you :( I'm so sorry things are looking not too good and having to face such an difficult decision.
I don't think there is a right or wrong, you love your dog very much so whatever you go for will be the right one if you follow me.
As you have asked what others would do though I will give you my thoughts.  I am not a great one in doing things just because they can be done but as your dog is so young and the vet has put the odds as even and the time gain in not doing it is not very great I would be inclined to proceed with surgery, as Teri had pointed out some masses are benign, however I would stress to the vet that if, what he found looked at all cancerous, then just to let Shadow go in peace as, personally, I would not want him to have to recover from abdominal surgery for very little gain in time, indeed surgery can often precipitate the spread of a malignancy.
The big down side to this strategy is the risk of losing that last few weeks together which sounds all too little but I am sure would be very precious to you.
You have my greatest sympathy in having to even consider all this.

What a terrible situation for you and Shadow :( :(

I personally would go with the op too. From what you say he only has a matter of weeks if he doesn't have the op so if there is even a glimmer of hope that the surgery could help then, if it were one of my dogs, I would have to go for it. Of course, no-one can make the decision for you and it's easy for us to speculate as to what we might do but you are the only one who can make this decision.

I really feel for you both and will be keeping fingers crossed for a positive outcome if you do decide to go with the surgery option.

I'm so sorry :( - hugs to you.

I think I'd go with the op, but with very specific instructions not to bring him round if things look worse when they go in.  You'll know you've tried - and to be honest (hope this doesn't sound too harsh) rather he goes on the operating table if things look bad than to watch him going slowly and painfully over the next few weeks.

Best of luck - you will make the right decision for you and Shadow, hard though it is.

M.x

What a horrible decision. :( From my previous experiences of trying to do the best for a dog and ending up losing her even sooner, my instinct would be to make the most of the time left and keep him happy and pain-free for as long as possible, then end it quickly. But that's just my opinion. :(

Best of luck for Shadow (and you) tomorrow, we'll all keep our fingers crossed for you both.

Was he from a reputable breeder who pays attention to health?  Hopefully the vet will find the problem and it will be sortable.

M.

Unfortunately have lost touch with the breeders. They came from Bedfordshire but have since moved.  Have all his papers - everything looked good when we got him. - although they had kept an older brother from a previous litter as he was of a very nervy disposition - wouldn't even come into the room to meet us. Shadow has always been a nervous dog too - although he has got better in his old age. 
Can't sleep tonight. Shadow is on my bed and I keep lying down with him but all I do is cry.  Sorry to go on. This is so difficult for me. Just hope tomorrow brings better news. 

Really hope tomorrow brings good news for you both, will be thinking of you. 

Sending virtual hugs ....

M.

Hi again Shads,

I was both really sorry and very disappointed for you to read that the earlier blood tests weren't usable :(   

Re the scan, this will also confirm if there are any naturally formed or consumed blockages throughout the GI tract and give an idea of how normal or otherwise the major organs look around that area, pancreas, spleen, liver, kidneys.  Additionally it will give an indication of any abnormal thickening or thinning of the stomach, bladder or bowel linings.  There are many uses for scans and growths are in fact only a small part of information looked for - so fingers crossed there will be no sign of tumours etc (and remember, even then, they need not necessarily be malignant ;) )

Is this a GP vet or a specialist who is attending to your dog now?  If it is a GP vet, depending on results awaited, it may be time to start the ball rolling for an early referral to a specialist.  Also ask which blood panels have been done and if they included a TLI test for EPI and a separate ATCH stimulation test for Addison's.  Neither of these are done routinely but could well have been the ones long awaited which did not provide a testable sample.

What I would strongly recommend is if the scan is inconclusive and/or raises queries which would benefit from biopsy, if you have the option of open biopsy or one harvested by endoscopy then for your boy's sake go straight with the aggressive approach and have the open surgery done instead - on the proviso of course that his physical condition is stable enough during pre-op testing.

Both methods need a GA regardless and open biopsy allows the full length (particularly in such a large breed) to be viewed in minute detail and more sections for biopsy removed (as well as the opportunity to harvest full thickness biopsies - something not feasible using an endoscope procedure).  Additionally, anything which needs surgical intervention can be carried out there and then and not delayed further although IMO only a specialist should move to this step as they have far wider experience of a multitude of differing ailments and how best to tackle them in comparison to a GP vet.

I continue to pray day and night for a positive outcome for your precious boy - please keep updating when you feel able to.  I know this is an extremely difficult time and very emotional but if at all possible try and remain upbeat around Shadow as he will pick up any anxiety from you too (not easy of course, but possible). Good luck and God Bless, Teri  xxx

I'd go for the op - after all, be optimistic, there's a 50/50 chance it will help! More hugs (())

Thanks to everyone for messages and thoughts.  I'm in bits. Can hardly read through the tears.  Shadow has just eaten a ham sandwich (he ate it in seconds) and is blissfully asleep on my bed unaware of the traumas to come.  I'm waiting for news from my insurance company to check they will cover the cost of the op.  Have been back to the vets to ask more advice.  They have been fantastic. They phoned the insurance company (Churchill) and said this was potentially life saving surgery and should be covered on insurance (I had to phone insurance to check we were covered for op as I can't afford a huge bill  - insurance co. wanted a 2 year treatment history faxed out before they make a definate decision). The vets are faxing everything over to them this afternoon. As long as insurance is covered then I think we will go ahead with op early next week.  At least we'll get a few days with him first to try and come to terms with all this.  I have to go and collect my son from school soon.  Don't know how to tell him whats happened today.  Been keeping optimistic when talking to him before until we knew anything certain.  My son will be 9 next Friday and Shadow was bought as a present for his 4th birthday (not long after we lost our beloved German Shepherd).  Dogs give you so much love but they break your heart too. 

Without question, you must do what feels right for your dog and you.:(
I'm out of step with most others, I'm afraid.  I don't believe that we should do things just because we can either.  As the prognosis is pretty grim, 50% then 50% again, I would keep him pain free and spend the rest of his time doing all the things that he likes to do, feeding all the things that he likes to eat and then when he becomes weary, give him peace with dignity.
I've been through a very similar situation with a friend and her dog recently.  She understandably took every hope that was offered but the dog spent his final weeks being pulled about. 
Oh it's sooo tough.  I really am so sorry for you. :(  This is the very worst bit about owning a dog...........

To be honest I thought the concensus would have shown a more 50/50 split too Val, perhaps when more people started posted for the op others have been shy of stating an opposing view :).
I really would not like to think we have put any pressure on you by sharing our thoughts, Shads, my intention, as I'm sure everybodies else was, was to highlight some of the issues to perhaps help clear the fog a bit for you but it's so easy to say what we would do when it is not our dog isn't it?  Only you know your dog and how he will cope with surgery the other big issue is whether surgery is right for you and again none of us are in position or have a right to say what is the right decision there.  One thing I am confident of is, you will find a great deal of empathy and support here for either decision, from us all.

Having spoken to Joyce at the Great Dane adoption society and also listening to my son and husband we have come to the decision that Shadow will have the surgery on Monday morning.  It means we can have a few quiet days at home together to give us time to gather our thoughts and prepare for the turmoil ahead of us.  If we don't opt for the surgery we may always think "What if..."  If the mass inside him turns out to be to large to remove then we have decided to let him stay asleep on the table.  This way he  keeps his dignity and we will remember him as he has always been. We won't have to watch him decline and have to make another heartwrenching decision.  Or if the surgery to remove his mass goes ahead we can do our best to help him recover and spend some more precious happier times together. 
I have spent the majority of the day in tears.  But the part that made me cry most was when my son said to us both "it doesn't matter if you can't afford any birthday presents for me - you must spend the money on trying to help Shadow"  I was so proud of him but the tears flowed so badly.  We now know our insurance will cover the cost.  We have decided to give our son his birthday present a week early. A digital video camera -  on the condition he uses it to film our "maybe" last few days with Shadow. 

Shads I faced a similar situation some years ago with my Dane bitch. Although she was older than Shadow, I decided to have her operated on but the growth was too invasive and couldn't be removed and the decision was made not to bring her round from the op. I have never regretted that decision as like you I would always have wondered what if. I asked friends for their opinion as to what I should do some said go for the op others said they wouldn't. At the end of the day it is a personal choice with no right or wrong decision. You have Shadows best interests at heart he is lucky to have such caring owners, I will keep my fingers crossed for you and Shadow.

I am so sorry to hear of your news and my thoughts will be with you this weekend and on Monday.......your boy sounds fantastic and you should be very proud as I am sure you are. I would do exactly the same thing in your position and capturing this weekend on camera is a wonderful thing to do. Good luck for Monday.:)

I'm feeling a little clearer headed today than yesterday.  Shadow had a good nights sleep. Although he had an enormous wee on the kitchen floor during the night. His steroid tablets are making him urinate more often - bless him.  Today he seems to have gotten his appetite back.  He has eaten large amounts of chicken and pasta lovingly cooked by a true vegetarian!  My sons friends have just knocked on the door and he actually got off my bed, legged it downstairs and barked at the door. Something he hasn't done in ages.
The surgery is all booked for Monday morning and I'm gonna make dammed sure that this is the best weekend of Shadows life.  (Just wish I could take him for a lovely walk but don't want to knacker him out - he needs his strength for Monday).  Just praying he makes it through and the tumour/mass is removable. I'm staying as positive as poss as Shadow picks up on my mood so well.  But it really helps to chat on this forum. Thanks to everyone for all their input in this.

You know that everyone is behind you! 
Will be thinking of you all this weekend and sending positive thoughts on Monday. :)

Hi Shads
I've ony just read this whole thread (I just didn't pay any attention to it before after the first few mails so never saw how things changed) and I'm here sobbing. Just wanted to say you will all be in my thoughts all weekend and of course Monday, and your son is a fantastic kid. Keeping everything crossed for Shadow.

Lots of hugs.

Thanks. Everyones posts mean so much to me. I've been printing them off daily and reading through them all.  Can't believe how many people have sent their best and given such thoughtful advise.  Shadow has now just eaten some fish from the chip shop.  He's like a bottomless pit at the mo.  But he did just have a major struggle trying to have a poo outside.  Gone from yukky runny light brown slop to very black sticky looking cow pats in the space of a few hours. Wonder if it is the steroids doing this or maybe the tumour is affecting him more.  Guess I'll find out on Monday.  Shadow is now curled up on the sofa infront of the TV watching The Simpsons with my son.

Hi shads
just read everything that has been posted. Hope it all goes well for monday. If it was one of my girls i would have done the same thing. my thoughts will  be with you and your family.
Donna

Well its Saturday, Monday is drawing nearer.  Shadow is quite perky again today. So much so that we have just taken him for a very small walk a little way down our road.  He was actually pulling to go faster but we gently persuaded him it was time to go home.  Our other dog came too (he's a yorkie/jack russell cross - rescue dog).  Shadow has also eaten well so far today. He's had his turkey mince and pasta and also a few yummy dog biscuits.  Gonna head out for an hour now and leave him to have a good rest.  Trying to make sure he builds up his energy ready for Monday.  I so hope he is gonna make it. But I know there is a strong possiblity he won't.  Just making sure this weekend is his best ever.

That's as good as it gets Shads!! :)  Well done. ;)