On the rescue dog theme and behavioural problems.  I regularly meet owners of rescue dogs while out walking my dogs.  It seems to me, personal observation of this area only, that the majority are Collie crosses.  Working dogs of all varieties are wonderful, as we all know, but they need regular stimulation, basically they need to be worked.  I take my hat off to all the wonderful people who rescue dogs of any breed and who save their lives when the only other option is PTS.

All that said, I am dismayed to find that unfinished (by this I mean not properly rehabilitated or trained) rescue dogs end up in the hands of novice owners.  Case in point.  Over the last few weeks I have met a very nice man who walks a dog for his daughter.  The dog is a very large male Collie cross.  At least 5 inches taller to the shoulder than any Collie I have seen.

There has been some work done and he always carries something in his mouth to stop him biting I expect.  On numerous occasions when we have met the dog it has threatened my boy, hackles up growling, and put down its distraction toy or stick ready to strike.  Up to yesterday it had not gone for the kill.  My boy was cornered at the field gate on lead and this big dog was standing over him threatening him.  My boy showed all the correct submissive gestures but the other dog's threat depend and the lip went back.  I shouted 'leave' at the aggressive dog and he backed off.  My bitch had already run into the field as she was off lead and will run when danger threatens (she isnt in season so this could not be the reason for the rise in the dogs aggression).  

The walker caught up with us then and we walked into the field.  My boy hung back, now off lead, as the dog chased my bitch who normally likes a game of chase but she was screaming to be rescued.  When he couldn't catch my girl he went after my boy dog.  He caught my boy on his back near his hips.  My boy was now screaming.  It was me who went back to his side commanding this dog to get off while the walker just watched.  In the end I shouted the man to call his dog and we set off in the other direction.  Only when we were nearing the gate did he leave us alone. 

It is unbelievable isn't it.  My boy is stiff around the back end today and doesn't want to go near the field, understandable, so we are finding another route. 

This man's dog should have been on a lead and under control.

But it's not just rescue dogs that are aggressive; it can be anyone's dog. 

Rehabilitating rescue dogs can take a long time depending on how ingrained the problem is. With the rescues I've had, rehabilitation and training goes on for the rest of their life, even though they show all the signs of recovery, I still reinforce that recovery. 

I suppose if rescue places only gave their dogs to experienced dog people, there would be a lot fewer dogs rehomed. I can't honestly see where they would get the time and the recourse to fully retrain or rehabilitate their dogs or observe them 24/7.  They are under funded and under staffed as it is.  I've also known rescue dogs to be perfect angels in rescue only to be a tyrant when rehomed.  So, it's not just about the dog; it's about the new owners and the whole situation in general. 

A dog with behavioral problems and a novice owner is not a good combination.  But providing the owner is dedicated, committed and seeks the help of a good behaviorist/trainer, these situations can have a successful outcome.

Yes Spender, I agree with everything you say and I have worked in rescue and rescued dogs aswell.  What I am finding hard to understand is the mentality of someone standing and watching a dog in their care carrying on like this.  I feel that the fault lies with the owner allowing an untrained or unresponsible walker, albeit a family member, to have responsibiity for a dog that he cannot control. 

Lots of people give their time to go to rescue centres and work with problem dogs as well as with dogs who are there because they cant be cared for any more.  And yes I have seen dogs in rescue behave perfectly well, even though they have had problems, only to be returned by the new owners who can't cope with them because the owners need training.  It is a vicious circle and the poor dog is caught up in the middle of it. 

You are quite right there are not enough rescources to deal with this problem but I think the government could help by bringing back some sort of liscensing again for dogs.  Not for the monetary gain it would bring to the government but to ensure that people had and understood guide lines for good dog ownership a bit like the CBT test for new motor bike riders.

>What I am finding hard to understand is the mentality of someone standing and watching a dog in their care carrying on like this.  I feel that the fault lies with the owner allowing an untrained or unresponsible walker, albeit a family member, to have responsibiity for a dog that he cannot control. 

I find it hard to understand too and agree wholeheartedly.

>I think the government could help by bringing back some sort of licensing again for dogs.  Not for the monetary gain it would bring to the government but to ensure that people had and understood guide lines for good dog ownership a bit like the CBT test for new motor bike riders.

I agree there needs to be some sort of regulation and guidelines.  Too many people have ownership for out of control dogs and don't appear to be taking responsibility either.  We have a bull terrier that's become a regular around here; he's walked off lead by a 13 year old child.  The dog has already attacked 4 dogs -unprovoked, and he's still walked off lead with no muzzle by a 13 year old child, so........ a couple of weeks ago, he kills our neighbour's dog.  The council are now involved so no doubt it will go to the magistrates court.

Oh echo what an awful experience is this a different dog to the one you meet on the lane that is shall we say... "not to friendly"  a border collie nipped Ellie last week at the top of  her left back leg  we were at a dog training class standing in line it just lurched at her and she cried out.....I must admit it caught the eye of the trainer and he had a word with the owner (before I could) and gave him a few tips on the different temperament of the collie so I had to correct him in that not all collies please exclude the bearded as they are a very friendly sensitive dog and he agreed with me....LOL

I hope you dont come across this dog again and if you do I would inform the owner that it should be on a lead at all times it may not just be other dogs it doesnt like it could be a person or a young child next time ....give your boy and girl a big << beardie HUG >> from me and my girls......

~Roni

Hi Roni

Thanks for the message.  It was a different dog.  The tiny little Pug that likes to eat my girls legs is now on the big dog walk, through the woods, and is keeping very close to his owner.  Hasn't approached us once.  No this is a very big Collie cross and despite all attemps to keep out of his way, we are bound to bump into him from time to time.  As of today I am carrying an extra slip lead and if he comes at us again he will find himself restrained and I will try to tell the walker, as reasonably as possible, that this must not happen again.

The thing that I wonder about with these people is if they are the same with their kids ?  It's never *their* dog that is in the wrong as they are 'responsible' dog owners - so do they say the same about their children 'it's not my charlie that bullies others at school, he's an angel at home and we don't tolerate bullying, you must have the wrong child !'  - oh how many times have I heard that and how many times have I put off going out for a walk with my dogs at certain times of the day because I just know that the pain in the a*se dog whose owner has NO control over will be out there :(

I understand where you are coming from, there is a lady I know in my local park has 2 rescue greyhounds one is totally out of control, lovely dog and could be trained but this lady has no idea what she is doing as she has never had a dog before.
Myself and my friend have had to shout at it in the past when it has stepped the mark and is likely to get hurt but she just stands there and says "Ah bless him"
A couple of weeks ago I saw her in the park with another greyhound, a very timid frightened dog who had been tied up and left and abused by its owner.
I take my hat off to this lady for giving this dog a home but just think that the rescue centre could offer her some advice on how to handle these dogs as she hasn't got a clue.
Her dog was playing with mine the other week and she thought he had a bad back, he was play bowing.
I am certainly no expert on dogs and have taken on an aggressive dog myself (I didn't know he was aggressive) and I've spent the last year trying to get him help and educating myself but this lady doesn't even know the basics.
Reccomendations from the rescue centre regarding training classes wouldn't have gone amiss with this owner.

It is clear from all our replies that whats needed is more education and more control, laws, to try and keep dog attack to a minimum.  Too many children are being attacked and too many dogs killed by out of control animals. 

The note about -  do they allow their children the same freedom.  I don't know as I imagine this chaps daughter is grown up in order to have a dog, I would certainly hope so.  A comment he made is haunting me though.  When my girl ran off screaming he said something to the effect of 'typcal woman, leads em on then runs of screaming'.  A chance silly remark which will stay with me forever.

god christine what a peculiar remark to make .... gets you wondering !!!

~Roni

there is of course the other flip side to all this.  I do have two BCs, one an absolute sweety and the other will get funny with a dog if its in his face or jumping all over him which quite frankly I dont blame him as I would hate another person to be in my face, he generally just growls and shows his teeth which most dogs back off from.   There is a particular woman who walks five dogs consisting of a BC, Jack Russell, Border Terrier x 2 and Yorkie.  Now one of the BTs is only about 6 months old and a very sweet young dog but she has absolutely no control over him and she walks all dogs with no leads or anything.  I know this dog jumps all over other dogs as I have seen him do it so being sensible I leave mine on the leads if we seeher.  Well we saw them in front of us today, the BT saw us and ran up to us and proceeded to jump all over my eldest, much to his disgust.  I shouted to the owner would she mind recalling her dog as my dog doesnt like being jumped all over, she called him several times and he didnt even look at her.  I asked her again to come and get him and again she tried calling him and again he ignored her, in the end she just shouted at him 'fine dont come and dont blame me if you get bitten' and then walked off.  I cant believe her attitude. My dogs are on their leads and I am being sensible by warning her that my dog can get a bit funny with dogs jumping over him and she just ignores me.  I ask what more can you possibly do......

Oh dear. At least she tried to recall him, but the responsible thing to do would be to keep an eye out for dogs she knows don't want to play, and put him on a lead. Failing that, at least come and physically get her dog when asked!! My Cavalier used to be like that - not a bad bone in his body, but far too friendly, and people with elderly dogs used to give me a wide berth, although I tried my best to recall him before he spotted them and went haring off. Thank goodness he is mostly ok now he's a little older!

You meet lots of folks with no recall ability don't you.  It has to be the most important thing to learn before taking your dog out into society followed by leave it. 

It never ceases to amaze me that some people will allow their dogs to approach a strangers dogs when they have been told not to. 

Going back to the theme of licences perhaps new dog owners should be duty bound to attend at least three training sessions so as to understand the basics.

That B""""y dog again!  I am getting seriously freaked out now.  I spotted the offending big black and white dog on the footpath (dogs must be under control at all times) stick in mouth heading up the path.  We had got about 100 yards down the path on lead.  As soon as I spotted it, my dogs saw it also, we turned and walked quickly back up the path, not running.  I knew we were near a high stile with a dog gate and I made for it, not before the dog caught up with us.  My girl slipped her collar and ran, boy took the brunt of his attention - not hurt this time.  I shouted really loud at it to leave and it backed off but kept coming back growling and lunging.  The owner was either miles away or it was loose or he was smiling to himself somewhere down the lane (I am sure half the town heard me shout).  Either way no one came for the dog.  Took both my dogs into the field and just kept walking.  When we came out of the field it was gone.

I have told my other half what is going on and he is on the look out for this man.  He intends to have stern words with him when he finds him.  I am now going miles away from my usual walks because there is something about this situation I just don't like.