Ok I feel really bad to even be posting this, but Im rather angry and somewhat emotional at the moment.

I was driving down a lane near home when I saw a dog at the side of the road. It looked OK but since it is quite busy I stopped to tell the farm that it was out. As I walked back past the dog (not too close but keeping an eye on it 'cos I wanst sure if it was scared ot hurt) when without any warning body language etc, it went for me and has bitten me quite badly. The farm were very good and took me to hospital etc. Anyway it turns out that the dog is a rescue that is known to attack without any warning. My dilema is that I feel at the moment that this dog is a danger to anyone who comes across it and really should be put down, before it does more serious harm. I  am reletively lucky to have only had a few stiches in my hand, brusing and should only be out of action for a couple of days. 

What are your opinions? I just know that you will have some :D 

edited to appologise for typing - it isnt easy with the wrong hand.

I'm so sorry to hear that you've been bitten like this.   Can you talk to the owners about whether the dog is a danger to all - if it can't be confined/controlled - should it be muzzled?    Is it fair to the dog, to keep it like this?   If it's a rescue dog, what do the people who run the Rescue feel?

You say that you had to go to hospital for a couple of stitches - in some areas, the hospital notifies the police if someone is treated for dog bites.

You must be so shaken up - poor you {{{hugs}}}!

Margot

Hi Margot

Thanks for the huggs I do feel like I need them at the moment.

Apparently the dog was on a long line but had managed to get under the fence and so was on the road. He is a fairly elderly collie and apparntly there are only a few people who can go anywhere near him. I just feel that if he is that bad, sooner or later he will do some real damage. The rescue owner seemed very reasonable, yet she lives there with 2 small children. Part of me says that this dog has no quality of life and is a danger, the other part can understand her reluctance to pts an otherwise healthy dog.  

You must be very shaken by this, what a horrible experience.

I would report it to the police and the dog warden.  Unfortunately, a dog like this is a danger, it could be a small child next.

{{{{Hugs from me too}}}}

Sandra

OH ...bluebell sorry to hear you've had such a horrible experience....
was  the dog owned by the farmer .....I think I'm inclined to agree with you if not pts then kept in a shelter sadly not all rescue dogs can be rehomed and this sound like one of them .

Hope your feeling better soon

~Roni

Hi

If he bit you quite badly, it may be worth having a tetanus injection in case the wounds go funny.

Hope you heal up quickly

What an upsetting experience.  Maybe speak to the owner of the dog, it it has attacked and bitten before it may well again!!!  Quite iffy keepimg a dog like that with kids about

the thing is if you report it,its likely that dogs life will end & it will be down to you.you may well be able to justify this,ie it is a danger & could do worse damage to someone else.
i however would not like to put myself in the situation where its down to me that someone elses dog dies :(

personally id speak to the owner as to how the dog could be more safely managed,ie not tied up all day near a public road.

hope you get over the shock soon & have the strength to do whatever you think is right.

>personally id speak to the owner as to how the dog could be more safely managed,ie not tied up all day near a public road.

Michelle, I don't think the type of person who ties up an elderley dog in their back yard is going to listen to reason.

You also have to think is it better to have on your concience that the dog has been PTS, or that it has bitten a child badly.  Don't forget this was a completely unprovoked attack.

I am afraid it is a no win situation whichever way you look at it. :(

it is a no win situation,id hate to be in the ops shoes
but PERSONALLY i do not want to be responsible for a dog being put to sleep.
its up to everybody else to decide what they think is best,if they were in the situation.

the dog could be ill ,or in pain or could have had such horrible treatment that it was scared,or was guarding its home,or was worried as it was on a long line that it couldnt get away.
now im not "excusing" the dog, & really feel for the OP,but i "personally" wouldnt want its death on my consience,before i knew ALL the facts.
still its for the OP to decide what is the best for her to do.
i feel so dreadfully sorry for this old dog,sounds like its had a ruff time & its not going to get any better.like many many collies sadly,not understood & left with sod all to do. :(

It could be a kid next time and they may get a lot worse than a few stitches.

It is your OBLIGATION to report this dog to the police, whether it is put down or not is down to the correct authorities to decide - you should not feel guilty, it's up them to make the decision on the dogs future and you have to trust them to do what's right.

I never cease to be amazed by posts like this (and the responses) yes it's awfully sad and may be entirely down to the dogs owners but that doesn't excuse a dangerous animal being allowed to attack passers by.

I love dogs as much as anyone but when they cross that line they need to be dealt with, it's no good pretending it didn't happen.

I quite agree Dylansdad - if this dog has had a history of unprovoked attacks then it quite clearly is a danger - irrespective I'm afraid of how it came to be aggressive we have to be realistic and deal with the facts. Aggressive dog + irresponsible owners = accident waiting to happen. Report this incident and just perhaps the owners will be forced to take responsibility for their dogs temperament and deal with it appropriately.

Yvonne

Im off to the Dr for on this morning.

Having spent all night thinking about it I have come to the following conclusions:

1. There is nothing else I could have done to prevent it attacking and I certainly gave it no cause. It gave no warning at all.

2. It was tied up but on a very long line and had got under the fence. It apparenly spends almost all of its time like this - this is no life for a collie, it is probably board out of it brain. However it cannot be walked as this is not the first time it has attacked un provoked. Im not saying it is the dogs fault, he has apparenlty had a bad time. It is a resident at the rescue as they cannot rehome it.They are not able or prepared to do anything to try and rehabilitate him.

3. The rescue is a busy stable yard/kennels so there are people and especially young girls in and out all of the time, any of whom could have come across him and been bitten.  

So Im going to give them a call today and explain that I  believe it is in both their and the dogs best interests to have him pts and spend their money/effort on one of the many  other strays that has a better chance of a good quality of life.

I will then speak to the dog warden and let her follow it up if she sees fit.

The silly thing is that I have friends that I will not even be able to tell as it will put them off of all dogs, the fact that they know someone who has been so badly bitten in an unprovoked attack.

Thank you all for your input - feeling a little less emotional today, but still not looking forward to making the calls :(

Bluebell,

Sorry to hear about this incident. Hope you are not too shaken.

I think your thoughts on what to do are the best way forward for the dog and public safety.  The dog doesn't have much of a life as it is.

Take care. :-)

It's difficult to give an opinion without being fully aware of the full facts.  If it was me, in the first instance I'd speak to the owner about managing the dog properly.  If I wasn't happy with her response, then I'd take it further. 

If the dog lives on a farm, i.e. a remote area and is kept of public property, away from the road, and properly managed, then the likelihood of him coming across a strange child or another strange person and attacking them is somewhat unlikely. 

the thing is if you report it,its likely that dogs life will end & it will be down to you.

I can't believe I'm reading this!

It will NOT be down to the injured person who has reported it if the dog has to be put to sleep!  It will be down to the person who did not keep it under proper control as they knew the dog was likely to attack and bite  The dog was on a line long enough to get under the fence and onto the road!!  There is no excuse for keeping a dog known to be dangerous to others and not ensuring that it cannot get out and attack.

Well said dill, to the poster  i hope you heal quickly , i do feel the dog should be reported its likely to happen again if given the chance then how much worse would you feel   :(      and its not your fault.

I would be inclined to request that the dog is always muzzled when out, and if I walked along there and saw that this was not the case, I would be forced to report it. :-(

well thats how i would feel if i was in the OPs position!
what do you want me to do ?lie about how i would feel!!!!
NO situation is black or white,im not saying thats how the OP should feel, but its how i WOULD feel.
we are intitled to different opinions,thats what this board is for. & if 99% of you feel one way & i feel the other,i cant help that..but im intitled to say how i feel.im not asking anyone to agree its simply my point of view.
i cant believe im being attacked for a differing POV ,

It's difficult for people to decide on something that has happened to someone else.  We all think we would know what we would do in situations. It seems you have posted on here to try and justify what you know in your head is the right thing to do but your heart is with the healthy (unknown really) dog.  I love my dog to bits, she can be cute, a rascal, a comedienne and a great companion but if I thought she was likely to bite anyone unprovoked like the collie did you, I would have no hesitation in having the dog PTS. That's what I think I would do but actually put in the situation I might have a real dilemma and this might be happening with the dog owner.  It's not your fault that the dog bit you and it's not your responsibility to decide what happens to the dog but it's on your conscience if you don't notify the dog warden knowing the dog is likely to do this again, as it has in the past, with the possibility of seeing another child in the papers with their face stitched back on.  You never know you might be helping the family out by putting the decision with the authorities.

Am i right in saying that this dog is in a rescue and cannot be rehomed? or have i read that wrong?
Personally if it was a choice of having a dog pts or a child being bitten on my conscience i'd rather have the dog pts.
This isn't the first time the dog has attacked unprovoked and it is still not being kept under control away from the general public so why would this time be any different?
I love dogs as much as anyone else on here but feel in a situation like this that a humans life (in this case most likely to be a childs) should come before a dogs, which doesn't seem to have much quality of life anyway and no prospect of it becoming any better.

Bluebell, for what it's worth, I think your doing the right thing. Hope you heal quickly and have no problems and try not to feel too bad about things (((((((((hugs)))))))))

Well I have reported it to the Police and Im waitng for them to come and take a statement. I have also spoken to a friend who is a behaviourist and she says that as a rescue if they knew it had bitten before when not provoked they are obliged to have it pts. Which makes me feel a little better as if they had been responsible in the first place this incident would never have happened. 

Hi Bluebell,
If it was on its own roaming!  and not on a lead, I think it should be reported.
You won't be the last it injures or attacks. The next person or child might not so lucky.
If that had happen to me for instance, I can't have tetanus Inj. They sieze my heart muscles.
It could have been fatal. I do think it needs investigation, and may be PTS for its own good.
Regards
Denese

I agree that you should report the bite.  It's up to the authorities from there on.  If everyone in my neighbourhood had reported each occurence, one of which was an unprovoked bite to a four year old child by a 110 lb. dog, we would have resolved a dangerous dog situation much sooner than we did. 

You have done the right thing.  This is the type of situation where an objective 3rd party is absolutely necessary.  This way the responsibility is taken from the the owner and from you and decided by those who are not emotionally involved.  You should not have felt guilty, you've hadn't done anything wrong.

Hi Bluebell

I really do not think that there is anything else that you can do:   if as you say, there are young children coming in and out of the stables all day, then it is only a matter of time before a youngster is mauled, possibly scarred for life, and put off dogs forever.

It will be a hard lesson for those youngsters coming to the stables maybe, that their Rescue dog has had to be put down, but it will be a lesson in responsibility too.   

Your only responsibility has been to REPORT what has happened before:  you have done this, and now any future action is taken out of your hands.  {{hugs}}

Margot

hope you are feeling better bluebell.you will feel better now youve reached a descision.i know youve thought long & hard about it, & respect you for that & not rushing to make a descision.

im a collie person,i LOVE the breed,but id think quite a few times about going up to ANY strange collie,especially a tied up farm collie.they can be extremley sharp.
this is a warning to anyone that walks past farms etc.

>but id think quite a few times about going up to ANY strange collie,especially a tied up farm collie.they can be extremley sharp.  this is a warning to anyone that walks past farms etc

Oh yes, they can be indeed.  We had working collies about 30 years ago on the farm.  Boy, they were sharp.  This was in Ireland.  If a stranger came up onto the yard in the car, they'd circle the car and if they got out, there was a strong possibility they would get bitten. But they were working dogs, trained to work, not socialise with humans.  Some people still use collies on farms, last time I was over in 2000; I was still meeting less than friendly collies even then on the local farms.   

here on exmoor too. they work or are tied up & guard the farm too.
they have to be tied up or they will go & find the sheep.

id NOT approach one of these dogs by myself unless i knew it personally

I agree Spender around here its common when on business to drive into a farm and just beep the horn for the farmers attention!

If you care to read the original post nowhere does it say that she approached the dog, she kept her distance and was wary of it ;)  Yes collies can be very sharp, they can also move like lighting, for these reasons - if known to bite unprovoked - they should be kept under firm control.

did she not?
i thought she was driving past & stopped the car & then had to walk past the dog?

(obvisley the dog thought she was abit close? & looking at it..eye contact?could the dog have seen this as a threat?)
anyway we werent really talking about the OP it was a warning in general

I had to walk past it yes but was very careful not to make eye contact etc as at that point I had no idea if it had already been injured etc. At no point was I closer than about 4 to 5 feet and it just came at me.

Anyway I gave a statement to the Police, who wanted me to prosecute, said that i had a good case. I decided that I wouldnt do this as defending it (assuming that they did) would take money away from other dogs in the rescue. However the Police have agreed to go and have a word with them and I believe that since it is now recorded as a rescue they are legally obliged to either take action to rehabilitate it or have it pts. Sadly it would appear that this poor collie never has any work or interaction of any kind, so must be suffering mental torture through bordom.

What I was surprised by was the total lack of interest from the dog warden. She would not speak to me at all. I would have thought that she should at the very least be interested to know if it was a dog that she had delt with before and in an ideal world should work with the Police to ensure that the dog is assessed by a behaviourist.    

Walking past a collie even within 4 or 5 feet if you don't know it on its territory, in my opinion, is asking for trouble.  Why not drive into the rescue centre?  I cannot believe the amount of people on this forum that are quick to have a dog PTS when it is entirely the fault of the owners who were responsible for the dog.  I haven't visited this site for many months but I see that it isn't getting any better.  To pass comment on something that you really know nothing about and don't even know the situation is appalling.  What about threatening the rescue centre first with court action before sentencing the dog to death.  We are all too ready to put the blame at the door of dogs.  Why don't you all go and read "THe Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson - it may open your eyes.

Maybe, before having a pop at the OP you should have read her whole response, in particular the part I have copied below :
"Anyway I gave a statement to the Police, who wanted me to prosecute, said that i had a good case. I decided that I wouldnt do this as defending it (assuming that they did) would take money away from other dogs in the rescue. However the Police have agreed to go and have a word with them and I believe that since it is now recorded as a rescue they are legally obliged to either take action to rehabilitate it or have it pts"

Therefore for you to say "What about threatening the rescue centre first with court action before sentencing the dog to death." really, IMHO, totally uncalled for - she has not sentenced the dog to death but has merely done her duty and reported it to the police who will now contact the rescue centre and ask them to uphold their responsibility with the dog in question !

Maybe you should listen to yourself when you state that "To pass comment on something that you really know nothing about and don't even know the situation is appalling." - I agree with you 100 %, but I would also practice what I preach.

This poor lady has had her hand bitten needing medical treatment, she is quite within her rights to demand the dog PTS but she hasn't, if the dog is in that bad a state behaviour wise, be it working collie or not, this is not acceptable behaviour and quite clearly needs some serious work done with it and maybe some blooming love in it's life instead of being tied up outside all the time, (even working farm dogs get to go inside occasionally ! ) - if that fails then yes, the rescue must make a serious decision as to it's future.

dogdeli1,

It would be better to drag this through the courts and meanwhile the dog bites some poor kids face off ?

Any dog that cannot tolerate a human being should NOT be in any place where there are people, especially children - it is a (potentially lethal) danger and needs to be either retrained or removed. Restraint would be crueler to the dog than death so that only leaves one real option.

I just cannot get my head around how anybody can truly believe that a dog which is *known* to be dangerous and is *known* to attack unprovoked should be allowed to carry on doing the same. If it were a person attacking other people you'd be down the police station insisting they were locked up.

Don't let love for dogs blind you to common sense.

I am not letting my love of dogs blind me of common sense!  What I am merely stating here is that the dog should not have been in a position to bite Bluebell!  That is the responsibility of the rescue centre.  Bear in mind that the rescue centre has a duty of care to the general public to ensure their safety BUT they also have a duty of care to any dog in their care to ensure THEIR safety.  This was clearly not the case in this instance.  I, personally, would have had serious words with the rescue centre to ensure that they did not let the dog get into that situation again with a THREAT of calling the police.  When a dog is a biter, it is a biter and the rescue centre knew this and took the dog in - in effect - accepting the responsibility that goes along with that.  They have clearly not carried out their duty of care towards Bluebell and the dog and therefore THEY are at fault, not the dog!  They knew the dog had bitten before so why let this happen.  So you think that a dog should lose its life because of their irresponsibility?  I don't!  It is not the dog's fault.  It was clearly distressed because very very few dogs will bite for no reason.  Perhaps it thought Bluebell was going to harm it!  YOu just don't know and that is why I posted my earlier post.  Please don't play the "parent card".  It just doesn't wash with me.  If a dog is a biter it will bite anyone and it is the responsibility of the owners to ensure that does not happen.  You do not know the entire circumstances surrounding this incident.  YOu have heard one side of the story.  I am in no way advocating that a dog that bites should be allowed to run free but please look at the wider picture here.  The owners are at fault not the dog.  Why should it lose its life?  AND farm dogs do not get to go inside!  They more often than not live in a barn and you have no idea of how this dog lives.  It will probably have shelter and it is probably kept outside because it cannot cope with being inside!!!!  You may say you love dogs but you clearly do not understand them or you would be looking at the wider picture here.

This Rescue Centre is situated at a farm that runs stables, with young children coming through.

Do you think that the children should be banned?

Margot

I don't think "rescuing" a working bred dog to this sort of life is really "rescuing" at all and I wonder how much the biting is to do with sheer frustration rather than nastiness, either way euthansia would not just be of value to safeguard the public but would, infact, be a kindness to the dog as life on a shorter lead or condemned to living in a kennel and run for the rest of its life is not a reasonable prospect in my opinion.

Hear hear, Isabel.

I totally agree with Isabel's comments. 
Personally I feel that the way the dog is kept is just as much of an issue as the biting.
To paraphrase a well known slogan - A dog needs a life not just an existence.

Death can sometimes be the best and kindest option.

i think it should have gone to a collie rescue,where they understand the specialist needs of a breed!
WHAT kind of rescue keeps a dodgey dog tied up where it can get onto the road?
are they registered?

LOL Dogdeli You clearly type and think faster than I do :D

>When a dog is a biter, it is a biter and the rescue centre knew this and took the dog in - in effect - accepting the responsibility that goes along with that.  They have clearly not carried out their duty of care towards Bluebell and the dog and therefore THEY are at fault, not the dog!

Hi Dogdeli,

I can understand where you are coming from, that is isn't the dog's fault, who knows what happened to this dog before he even reached the rescue centre, but at the end of the day this dog has bitten, with no warning or provocation, and this now needs dealing with.

If a parent does nothing but swear, 'f' and blind, hit, punch, and abuse their child, and then that child goes on to do the same at school, it isn't the parent that gets punished, it is the child that will get a detention or whatever. This is the way it is with everything, yes it is extremely sad for any dog lover to hear of any dog being put to sleep, but when that dog is threatening lives, there is no other way.

We could all sit here and argue over the details, 'the dog shouldn't have been there', 'Bluebell shouldn't have been there', 'it isn't the dog's fault, the centre knew he had bitten before' (not sayng I agree or disagree with any or all of these examples) but the fact is that this dog has bitten someone, and it sounds very likely to have happened before, and if it is allowed to carry on as it is now, he will probably do it again, except we also have children to add to the equation, I can not believe that ANYONE (dog lover or not) would rather put a child's, or any human's, life below the life of a dog - especially one who has bitten, and is obviously not having the best life anyway.

As you say once a biter always a biter, I know I would rather have a dog put to sleep than risk him biting my son, or anyone else!

JMO

Nat :D

Well Dogdeli1 apart from anything else it appears that I could quite easily prove that this dog has bitten before. In which case if it went to court and this came out the rescue has failed in its legal duty to protect the public and there is a strong liklihood that the charity would be closed down and the individuals involved held fpersonally accountable. Would that really be better for the majority of dogs in their care?

Secondly as employers they have to do a full health and safety assessment on all of the dogs in their care. Sadly short of the dog being muzzled all of the time I can see no way in which this can have be done effectively, thus invalidating any insurance.

Thirdly it was on PUBLIC HIGHWAY, a very busy country lane, on the edge of a village. To reverse past round a bend to get to the farm entrance, under the circumastance would have put both me and the dog at risk.  I therefore decided to park the car in such a way as to give the dog some protection from the traffic. I could not physically get much further away in a narrow lane without climbing a fence.

Finally I have worked with behavourists for a number of years and I have NEVER seen a dog attack like this without being put under any 'pressure'.  Having spoken to them about this dog and its circumstances, it is their professional opinion that there is very little chance of successful rehabilitation.  Sad as it is not possible to save all dogs from the effects of their life experience. Weather it is their fault or the owners, once it has got to this stage is sadly of little consequence.  

We all (including dogs) take decisions based on our past experience and sadly sometimes we all get it wrong. At NO point have I blamed the dog for its decision.  However if it is predisposed to bite his OWNERS have a duty to protect people and provide a proper level of care, activity and retraining for it. Sadly sometimes the responsible thing to do is to have it pts. Not something that would give a dog lover anything other than a heavy heart, but it is better then having a child scared for life and scared of all dogs.

Believe me I have thought long and hard about my actions and I am still worried that by not taking further action I have done the wrong thing under the circumstances.

Thankyou to all of you who offered support at a difficult time. As for the advice, I thank you for it even if I did not agree with it all or choose to take it - that is what discussion is all about. 

HI Bluebell

Firstly, let me say I am in no way getting at you!!!  I am really sorry that this has happened to you and I can understand your anguish.  In the wider scheme of things though it was the owners that were at fault and it is appalling that this has been allowed to happen.  I see what you say about working with behaviourists etc.,  Perhaps the dog was under severe pressure by you just being there.  We don't know his history and it is absolutely terrible that the owners are not looking out for your safety and that of the dog.  I really do hope that you get better soon and wish you all the best.

Kind regards
Annie