Hello,  I recently read a post on here concerning breeding Labradors and maintaining a healthy 'gene pool' which at the time I should have printed, as I am unable to find it now!!  I have a hansome chocolate labrador which contrary to belief in the gundog world is actually blessed with natural ability and is training/working very nicely.  My partner has shown a very keen interest in training and working a labrador for sometime now and we are looking to purchase bitch.  I am very aware that should we decide to have a litter at a later date that we should ensure that the pedigree's are suitable matched so that not only do we have an excellent working dog but that it is for the betterment of the breed.  However, I am unsure wether we should be looking for a Chocolate Lab or Black Lab with the Chocolate gene.  Please can anyone advise or maybe point me in the right direction.   Thankyou

Type in chocolate labrador gene pool in the Search option (top right hand corner of this page) and it will all come back.......

Also type in hip/elbow scoring & eye testing ;)

Margot

If you are going to breed for colour you first have to know what type your dog represents; http://www.vetgen.com/color.html.

Hopefully you'll be checking more than just suitable pedigrees.
Good luck!
 

Maximus - black dogs with the chocolate gene are like hens teeth! A good source for chockies is the chocolate owners club - details under breed club on the otehr part of this site.

>- black dogs with the chocolate gene are like hens teeth

Since when???  I have 6 Black Labs, 5 of which carry the chocolate gene ;)  I have dreadful difficulty finding a black that does not carry chocolate that are compatable with my lines.

So I have a black bitch with one parent that was chocolate, I then have to look for a dog that does not carry the chocolate gene for me to breed purely blacks.  Am I right?? I think I am.

Also please assure me that a black bitch cannot turn chocolate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Although she has one chocolate parent, the hair on her haid and neck in the sunlight looks distinctively like dark chocolate to me!!!!!!!!!!

So it is not rude to ask the stud dog owner if her carries a chocolate gene then?

If you bitch is black with a chocolate parent, she carries the chocolate gene, which statistically she will pass on to half her offspring - but you won't know which half! Recessive genes like this can be passed through many generations unsuspected before reappearing. If you use a black stud dog who had one chocolate ancestor 5 generations back he could still be carrying the gene.

"Also please assure me that a black bitch cannot turn chocolate!!
Although she has one chocolate parent, the hair on her haid and neck in the sunlight looks distinctively like dark chocolate to me!"

Bella, rest assured your bitch won't turn chocolate! The brownish tinge usually is a proof that the coat quality, especially undercoat, is excellent.  :)

Phew thanks for that!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not a lover of them but do not dislike them, she is rather fetching though!!!!!!!!!!!

Not sure, but Bluebell may be referring to working lines, where there are very few that carry chocolate.

So my other bitch that has one yellow parent should not throw chocolates unless put to a dog that carries the chocolate gene????????
or does the yellow carry the chocolate gene?????????? I suppose it depends on the breeding.

It depends on what colour/s of the other ancestors too.
This should help. Googling "labrador colour inheritence" turns up loads of info.

Edit: There's also a DNA test in the US ... what colour is the nose of your yellow?

Thanks will go and look at that later.
I just want to avoid at all possible the possibility of breeding Choccies!!!!!!! I would rather eat hem LOL!!!!!!!!!

Hi Bella

As JG has explained any dog can carry chocolate no matter how far back in the pedigree it is.  If the dog has one choc parent (or parent with choc pigment ie nose colour) it will definitely be a carrier and each generation back from this, the chance reduces by 50% so one choc grandparent = 25% chance.

Yellow is inherited the same way.  Yellow parent means she carries yellow and will produce it mated to another yellow or carrier.  And yes yellows can carry choc in the same way or actually be choc genetically (brown nose shows this) which is "hidden" by yellow.

I have to agree with Havoc though.  Far too much emphasis is put on colour in breeding stock selection so much so that lines are kept completely separate in some breeds to reduce the risk of undesirable colours and mismarks occurring, which reduces the available gene pool.  Far better IMHO to make health, temperament, working ability etc the priority.

Julie

Maximus,

If the objective is to really improve the working chocolate labrador, my advice would be to try and get hold of the best trial-bred black bitch that you can. She needs to make the grade from a training/working point of view, and also please you with her looks and temperament (some trialling bred labs are getting too nervy).

She will also need decent hip/elbow scores and a clear eyes certificate. Unfortunately you can invest one to two years on a bitch and then either the health scores aren't good enough or she just doesn't make the grade as a worker. If this happens, for the good of the breed, you discard her from your breeding plans and start again.

From a working point of view I would exclude from my breeding plans any dog/bitch that;
- Ever barks or whines while working
- Shows any inclination of hard mouth
- Is not a brave hunter in cover
- Is not a keen and competent swimmer
- A slow retriever
- Needed significant remedial training for retrieving
- Poor game-finder
- Any gun shyness
- Personally I wouldnt breed from one of my own labs that wasnt capable of trialling with some success, but that is dependent on the skills / experience of the owner as much as well as the inherant ability of the owner.

From a temperament point of view I would exclude ;
- Aggressive or nervous individuals
- Any that required exceptionally hard training measures
- Any that struggle to cope with the pressures of an average training programme, or the hustle and bustle of a shooting day.

From a health point of view;
- A hip score higher than about 16.
- Failed eye cert (including MRD), or one whose parents had subsequently failed after having bred your youngster
- Epilepsy within the siblings
- Cleft palate within the siblings

I'm less fussy from a looks point of view, however, by preference I would prefer a reasonable looking animal with a reasonable amount size and bone without any excess. The further he/she gets from my ideal looking lab the more it would have to impress me with its working abilities.

When you get a really good bitch, you start to get very fussy about the quality of the dog you want to mate her to. Often the dog that seemed an ideal mate, just doesnt seem good enough for your little star!

Once you have found a bitch that meets the standard, and assuming the chocolate dog has the same qualities then the subsequent litter are likely to end up all black. However, all of this litter will carry a chocloate gene, and give you something to work with in future generations.

If it were me wanting to breed quality working chocolates, I'd be looking for the colour to turn up a couple of generations down. I'd try and get hold of two top quality black bitches as described above. These will preferablly have similar but not identical breeding, including ancestors that can be safely line-bred to. Mate one bitch to your dog (providing he is good enough) and the other to the best quality working chocolate that you can find.

Pups from the resulting litters (providng they make the grade) could then be mated together, and produce a few chocolates in the litter.

There are some reasonable working chocolates about, but they tend to have far too many non-workers in their pedigree to be consistent as a breeding prospect. My objective in the breeding programme would therefore be to try and dilute the non-working element of the pedigree whilst trying to retain the chocolate gene. 

Just my thoughts...