>"But the labs in rescue are "correct"colours"

Could that be because there isn't a fashionable 'incorrect' lab colour in this country? ;) I wonder what the proportion of chocolate labs to black or yellow are in rescue?

That doesnt matter though JG because the KC have approved them all so there are no 'wrong' colours, if there were more yellows than blacks then I doubt that would be because of anything other than coincedence... :rolleyes:

And MM, Whites can be health checked the same as black/tans, so as long as this is allowed then I will continue to chose a white GSD next time after going to a gd breeder, now that I know there are many decent honest white breeders out there who charge no more than a black/tan have their dog health tested and are all KC reg.

Wow can they really I never knew that :rolleyes: Zoe I think you might have realized by now I do know any dog can be hip scored breed or non breed registered or not, so there is no need to be so pedantic

BTW there are colours of GSD apart from B&T in fact B&T are in the minority more are likely to be Blaack & Gold my favourite colour is in fact a grey dog(who would call it a sable)but not a UK grey dog but a german one & after that a real black-most registered blacks BTW are actually very dark grey dogs whose real colour can be found under the tail or between the or on the paws ! However I would chose my dog from parents I liked & have the dog that suited me regardless of colour.

I wanted a white faced BC-the bitch didn't have one so I had my next choice a classic black & white. These were of course dogs bred to work not for shows so there is no wrong colour I don't think there are any "white"GSDs bred to work sheep or cattle in the UK

I must be explaining myself very badly, because you seem to be missing the point. Regardless of whether a colour is 'correct', if it becomes fashionable then more are going to be bred, and more people are going to buy them to make a fashion statement. These are the dogs who are more likely to end up in rescue. 'White' shepherds are marketed as 'rare' so often people buy them just to make a statement - perhaps they wouldn't have chosen a GSD otherwise! When the reality of GSD ownership sinks in, or the novelty wears off, the dogs are put up for rehoming. Not all, I hasten to add - but proportionately more.

yes, and any breed any colour goes through times when they are more popular than another. I explained myself badly too, I was saying a yellow may be more popular than a black in a rescue but no one will pick up on that, they will simply say it is coincidence. Or maybe 'fox red' or whatever that colour is in labs, many people have not seen this, I have had 2 people in a matter of months telling me about this new red lab that they want one. But it is not frowned upon is it?

> but no one will pick up on that

Yes, Zoe, they do.  The current trend is for chocolate in labs and my understanding is that there are far more in rescue and what, only twenty years ago was a minority colour, now accounts for around a third of all labs born.  It doesn't take an expert to work out that breeding for a particular trend, in this case colour, produces a lot of dogs of questionable quality and health, as it has with chocolate labs.

> But it is not frowned upon is it? 

If you do a search of chocolate labrador breeding, you will find it is!
Red fox simply refers to the shade of yellow and is not a colour as such, but if it goes the way of the chocolates as a fashion, then yes, it would be frowned upon.

Yes but thats ok because they are not undesirable.

No, it's not okay. That's the point. Many of them are bred purely because of their colour, regardless of their quality.

And many are not... If chocs are more in rescue than other colours then when someone comes on here looking for a choc puppy why do we not say 'please dont get a choc get a black/yellow'.

We don't say either - we say to be very careful about what breeder they contact, and make sure all the relevant health checks have been done on both the parents, and warn them to be on their guard for the get-rich-quick careless breeder who's simply churning out puppies for the market.

I wonder why there are so very many chocolate labs registered, but so few are seen in the showring or in the field? Could it be because generally they're just not good enough?

>I wonder why there are so very many chocolate labs registered, but so few are seen in the showring or in the field? Could it be because generally they're just not good enough?

This is exactly the reason JG.  The bandwagon has been well and truly jumped on.  Far from being a rare and precious colour, Chocolate Labs are now all too commonplace.  However, Well bred chocolate Labs are as rare as hens teeth.  The genetic makeup of the Chocolate gene is a nightmare to reproduce well. Many of these have extremely poor pigmentation and eye colouring, which deviates from the standard, so although the colour is acceptable, the true standard has not been reached.  There are a few Labrador breeders who 'specialise' in Chocolate and have spent many years researching and getting the genetics right. 

The puppy farmers, backyard breeders, etc have all jumped on the process line of churning out poorly bred chocolate Labs, for one reason only. ££££££££'s. Many not only have poor pigmentation but are so deviate from the construction standards, they barely resemble the Labrador at all. 

So although the colour is a standard, the rest of the dog may not be.

Which is precisely what has happened with 90% of "white"GSDs.

Read the breed standard closely then apply it to "white"/longcoat GSDs disregarding the colour.

The first paragraph of the breed standard includes this"weather-resistant coat."so out of the window go all the long coats without the full undercoat

Then the head, the GSD in both dog & bitch should have a strong head with"Skull from ears to bridge of nose tapering gradually and evenly, blending without too pronounced stop into wedge-shaped powerful muzzle"Now come on be honest & actually look at the "whites"being bred do they really have that look, the ones I have seen certainly don't

Then with the lack of correct muzzle the jaws are hardly likely to be"Jaws strongly developed"

The height to length ratio is "Correct ratio 10 to 9 or 8 and a half" measuring the lengthof body to the height at the withers, looking at the lines most "whites"come from they are to overly long dogs with shortish ribs & long coupling & so the fault is being bred to & inbred to at that

Then the coat again in more detail"Outer coat consisting of straight, hard, close-lying hair as dense as possible; thick undercoat."again ruling out all longcoats

This is just looking at a few parts of the dog

The breeders of"whites"&other non standard colours on the whole totally ignore the breed standard totally not just the colour & the result is untypical dogs that are on the whole not good examples of the breed physically even though they might make good pets

> And many are not...

Sadly I'd say it's a few not many :(, and in those cases colour comes down very low on the list of priorities.

I can assure you that the way chocolate labs are being bred is not considered acceptable, in spite of it being a standard colour.

There has been a rapid growth in"white" & other non standard colour GSDs being bred in the last 20 years & as their popularity goes up the gene pool narrows as they are usually bred together. These dogs are from an already heavily inbred dogs(off the pedigree in most cases)

If you breed from non standard colours your choices are restricted the same goes for long coats as it is a recessive you can only know you will get longcoats if you breed two longcoats together

So we should abandon breeding to standards & what will you end up with ? well not GSDs that is for sure.

The very latest trend only a few coming into rescue is a cream/beige  with a black mask usually with an typical long weak muzzle & often longcoated, not bred for work just to sell as being "unusual""rare"

Sadly we are getting more & more like the US with designer dogs bred only to make money JMVVHO of course & white is not the colour of the GSD as you state  "I am simply sticking up for my breeds colour"

It's only in about the past 20 years that pale yellow became the popular shade for yellow labs - before then they tended to be quite a bit darker, and fox red was seen more often. Nowadays working-bred yellows are more likely to be fox red than show-bred ones, because those dogs are bred for working ability not fashionable colouring. It's not a new colour by any means, and has always been a standard shade.

As you say, any breed, or any colour in a breed, goes in and out of fashion. When in fashion, there'll be more in rescue - we see this in dalmatians every time a film is released, and puppy farmers jump on the bandwagon to cash in. :( When out of fashion again the proportion goes back to normal. Unfortunately non-standard colours tend to attract more of the wrong sort of owners and breeders who care more about the colour than the dog underneath. :(

I am speaking of a breed rescue that only has GSDs through its hands not some all breed rescue & yes when the novelty wears off they are dumped because they are "white"& a new faddy colour bought(blue is the really in colour at the moment we get loads of calls for this new "rare"colour & people are jumping on the band waggon to breed The same people who breed "whites"in most cases)

I suggest before you jump down my throat again, just think about this 20 years ago the odd "white" or longcoat was found in a very few litters. Now we have a population explosion thanks to the likes of Yvonne Daunton(Vondaun affix-one of her bitches(Vondaun Belissima of Brinton) was mother to Hendrawen's Quadrille of Eveley-& if you know anything about GSDs you will know about Quadrille) who mass bred "white"GSDs from very limited bloodlines. The same stud dog being used over & over again. Her dogs are behind 90% of the"white"being bred today. The BRS shows litter after litter of"whites" "white sables" "creams" "champagne sables" "black & white" "sable & white(totally wrong as sable is a coat pattern not a colour BTW)etc  A further check of HD scores reveal most have not been done & some that have been done still being bred from even though they have a high score. Add to this all the standard colours also being bred with the same amount of"care" & there is no wonder GSD rescues have waiting lists of dogs waiting to go into the kennels & kennels that are always full, but why are over 50% of the dogs in our & other breed rescues white when they do not make up over 50% of the dogs bred ? because they are status symbols & when the fluffy cuddly puppy stage is gone & the naughty teenager emerges out they go

i get a hard time over having a white BUT i have got him for the loveing dog he is not his colour

Well you shouldnt get a hard time hawksmouth, there is no need and it is unfair. They are not unhealthy just the 'wrong' colour according to the KC. I see no reason why owners of whites should be made to feel 'bad' people.

I know one of the main reasons white Boxers are not bred from is their tendancy to be deaf(they are not albino either).Is this the same case with white GSD's?

"is their tendancy to be deaf(they are not albino either).Is this the same case with white GSD's?"

No, it is purely because they are undesirable.

"I suggest before you jump down my throat again"

Not once have I done this MM, I am simply sticking up for my breeds colour and for what I believe in, as you are too....;) I have not lost my temper through any of this, I apologise if you though I was jumping down your throat, wasnt intentional.

just to say i brought my dog from a very good breeder who has been breedind wgsd since 1985 she does not advertise but sells them by word of mouth and my bitches brother is at stud with a very good hip score of 8 and hemo clear

Since 1985? Quite the new commer then. 15 years is a very short space of time in dog breeding. Barely time to see a couple of generations through to old age.

By the time somebody has done a couple of years research, a few of years novice showing a year or so of stud dog research, a first litter, a year or so rest and recouperation, got into the ring with a puppy kept back, blah, blah blah. Everything goes right, 15 years have gone in a flash.

I waited 30 years before I got a bitch worthy of breeding so I'm afraid I'm not impressed by a mere 15 years.

Dawn R.

i agree but that is when she started breeding the whites before that she was breeding black and tans(since the 1960s)

2005 - 1985 = 20 years does it not?

Yep the mid 80's when the"white"GSD started to take off, very similar to what YD did she was breeding standard colours from the late 50's early 60's produced a few champions(with mainly iffy temps like most GSD at time that were from the post war bloodlines)& then of course the bitch that produced Q & then started mass breeding of whites & oddly enough she rarely advertised either, the BRS used to contain pages(literally)of her "white"breedings, there was a court case I think but I can't remember the details.

Yes it is Andy :) but I'm sure even if this person had been breeding for 50 years with great lines it would make no difference....Because they are undesirable.

There are no"Great lines"for whites as they are being bred solely for the colour & not to improve the breed closer to the breed standard.

LOL or maybe its because some people prefer them? have had better experiences with them? have had better experiences with them than they have with black/tans? Please dont tie everyone with the same brush MM, not everyone just breeds WGSD's because of colour, open your mind slightly and realise that they are not all horrible people breeding just for colour and to premote them as being rare.

Well why do so many people breed them ? Have they all had bad experiences with  the minority colour black & tan ? Did you bother to read my post re main colours in GSDs ?

It is not "white" or black & tan, but either grey(UK sable) or black & gold. The grey dogs like Horand are the basis of the breed not black & tan. The majority of working bred(as in real work not obedience/WT)are grey or black & gold(very bright black & gold for the sheep/cattle working dogs, no whites are currently being used in Germany to work stock-why ?the sheep ignore them ! I've seen it demonstrated in Germany & BTW German sheep breeds do not bond with flock guards either another reason "whites"are not used)

You continue to support the "white"breeders & you might eventually get the FCI type White Shepherd recognised-but they are not GSD anymore. They will not please the UK "white"GSD fans, as they are much more like white smooth Belgian/Dutch shepherds, they will not include the"white"long coats either. Thy will never be accepted as a correct colour of  GSD as I have previously stated the  SV will not remove white as being a disqualifying colour.

The puppy farmers will continue to churn out substandard"white"GSDs because they still con people into paying money for a dog with a very obvious breed fault & by concentrating on colour alone they lose breed type & end up with dogs that fail to resemble GSDs at all, just like the poor things that end up in our rescue-BTW another"white"14 month old went into today- he isn't as white as they wanted !

It is not just GSDs it's labs. goldens etc pale gold almost white goldens are in at the moment, one attends our club, it is gross short massively boned legged & a huge body, not a typical golden at all & the guy paid £750 for his"rare"white golden :(

>It is not just GSDs it's labs. goldens etc pale gold almost white goldens are in at the moment, one attends our >club, it is gross short massively boned legged & a huge body, not a typical golden at all & the guy paid £750 for >his"rare"white golden

Very interesting thread this and I have to say I agree with you MM. Just one point about the Goldens -the pale ones have been popular for showing for quite some years now (20 odd for sure), some judges prefer them, some prefer darker ones, others can look at the dog as a whole and not just the colour, thankfully. But to be fair the Golden breed standard DOES allow for "any shade of gold or cream, but neither red nor mahogany" -so the really pale ones ARE still within standard. They may LOOK white, but they aren't when compared to something that is, and by the age of 3-4 virtually all will have darkened a shade. (I have always loved richly coloured GOLD Goldens and that's what I have now -3 of them-, but I have had 2 pale creams in the past, one of which was a rescue.)

As a little side note, in my breeds of cat I am trying to breed cetrain rare colours. In fact it has been a work in progress for 7 years already. (Still STANDARD colours, but ones that either are very rare or do not yet exist -many cat breed standards allow for the breed to come in any colour even if some do not yet exist). To be able to do this, I have had to look away from type, and although I have bred Champions, many many kittens I've had have not at all been show worthy or in some cases hardly even resembled their breed. This IS what happens when you pay attention to one thing only: colour. (Yes health can be included too of course.) ALL of those kittens have been sold as pets at a pet price (i.e. half the price of a show kitten) and endorsed not to be bred from. I do know what I am doing and have an ultimate goal, and that most definitely DOES include getting the correct breed type into the colours I am after.   So anybody breeding something experimental (for want of a more suitable word -in the GSD case there isn't even a remote chance of "white" or rather cream! getting included in the breed standard) and charging MORE for the result when the TYPE is less good than normal AND it cannot be shown, and NOT aiming to IMPROVE the type, well there is clearly only ONE thing they are after. :( I have NO problem with people having them as pets, in fact I think they are very pretty, but I DO have a big problem with ANY breeder breeding with the ultimate aim of making money and ignoring a breed standard.