WANRING - LONG POST (BRING A TENT AS THIS IS GOING TO TAKE A WHILE!) I have an issue with my neighbours, and firstly, I am unsure how to deal with it, and second, I am unsure how to make sure that my puppy isn't going to have future issues because of their behaviour. Our old neighbours, who were lovely people, moved out a week before we were due to get our puppy. The new neighbours arrived - a couple with two little girls aged 2 and 4. These children never speak, never smile, cry and throw tantrums constantly (to the point where other neighbours have commented), and the noise rom them is seriously an issue in itself. The children are often shut out in the back garden, or if you can believe it in the front which is near a main road where they will constantly ring on their doorbell and cry until they can barely breathe. In terms of my puppy, an issue has arisen that is making me very angry with them. When we first got her, they were constantly at the fence looking over. Ok, I thought, a bit of an invasion of privacy, but there you go. I just put it down to them being interested in seeing the puppy. Now they think they have a license that whenever the puppy is out, she is fair game to be watched, shouted at, laughed at, cooed over etc. and it is causing problems. Even when I am out there picking up poo, I am watched, and this can be at 7am in my pajamas and a pair of boots, looking worse than the stuff I am picking up, they are there watching. Just before I start, the front end of my back garden is quite open to the neighours, a 4 foot fence with our kitchens facing each other. The back end is secluded and the neighbours cannot see in. The first major issue - apart from the invasion of privacy with eyes constantly over the fence - came when I was on the telephone in the garden. While sitting at the end of the garden on the phone, my puppy was nearer the house playing with her ball in my sight. Suddenly, the bloke next door thinks it is hilarious to start barking and growling at her. He was doing in a very 'realistic' way if you get what I mean (not simply 'woof woof'). This terrified her, and she ran into the house. I put the phone down immediately, and as I was rushing into the house, I saw this idiot with his wife and kids looking out of the window and laughing at her. In the house I found she had peed, she had her ears flat down to her head and her tail between her legs, and was shaking. She then peed again in the house later and I had to work hard all that afternoon to get her to go back out into the garden. Now, when the childen see her, they yell 'woof, woof' at her and say 'daddy come say woof woof' so this has obviously become a game for the family, and they are entertained by her terrified reaction. The other night he appeared over the fence holding the 2 year old and propping the 4 year old up on something so she could see over the fence, and he asked me how the dog was. I said, tactifully, she was not used to loud noises and was only a baby, and so should be treated as such with some respect. I ended the conversation and told him I had things to do, so I took her to the end of the garden and we had a play. 10 minutes later when I walk towards the house, he is only still there holding up his kids and staring into the garden with the explanation 'well, we wanted to see the puppy.' like it was his right. I took her inside. He then came out again with his kids and wife a few days later to ask us if we would collect a parcel for him (cheeky sod). We said no as we did have other plans and again they were mesmirised by the puppy, and he started howling at her. I gave him a look that would probably have frozen hell and told him not to do that, but to be pleasant and not cause problems I changed the conversation and then took her in. Today something else has now happened with them that has upset my puppy immensely. They have not put a ladder along their fence so the children can stand on it to look in the garden. Now, whenever the puppy is out they are there (and it is seriously like a scene from The Village of the Damned' these silent blond children just standing there, unsmiling, never speaking and just staring). My puppy was digging in her sand pit (yes, I do spoil her, she has a paddling pool too...!) when the phone rang, I would never normally leave her unattended, but my mum had fallen down some stairs and was in hospital today so I wanted to get her call (thankfully all is fine bar bruising and a chipped tooth) something obviously happened though while I grabbed the phone as my partner saw, from the upstairs window, our puppy bolting down to the back of the garden, he called down to me that he thought she was hurt or something had happened, so I ran out to find her cowering under a chair with her ears flat back, shaking and her tail between her legs. I called her out, and crouched down, and she was looking around like she was terrified before she would come out to me, and then she buried her head between my legs and was very timid - quite unlike her. I went to take her into the house when the mother of these two brats came out and started saying how beautiful the puppy was. Our puppy saw the mother and the two children still at the fence and ran away from me to hide under the decking, I then heard the children making screatching and 'fart' noises at her and kicking the fence, and I think either they threw something at her as there was a plastic green ring in the garden and I don't know where it came from, or they kicked the fence when she was walking by and didn't know they were there. I told the mother that I wasn't happy about seeing the kids looking over the fence every five minutes, but she seemed to think this was funny. She then accused me of not changing my puppies water (which is changed 3 times a day) as why else would my puppy prefer to drink out of a bucket of stagnent water in the garden? I coaxed my puppy out, she saw the children, slunk behind my legs and whined the whole time until I took her in. She has finally settled after behaving in a very unsettled way in the house, and is sleeping. Now I am concerned she is going to have issues with small children after having to see these brats yelling and shouting at her, and having the idiot from next door barking at her (he has obviously taught his children through his behaviour that this is ok). What can I do to minimise the damage done to her? My partner is going to talk to them later this week if there are any more incidents like this and tell them it is an invasion of privacy and that the fence is there for a reason. He is furious. Mostly, I am posting as I need to know how I can get my pups confidence back up again with children -she is fine with older children, and seems to know they are delicate so to speak, but I am worried from her reactions she may have issues with small little girls in the future.

Why not raise your fence to 6ft so that the neighbours cannot see in.

a six foot fence with barbed wire across the top would be my choice- a shame you cant make it an electric fence!! i would think about moving too- they sound like the neighbours from hell!
on a more positive note i would only allow pup out when i was there to supervise- very hard i know but worth it for the reasurance. if its any consolation, the kids and mad dad should get bored quickly and hopefully go and torment someone else!!

Oh dear - what a performance for you! :(

Expensive, I know, but could you afford to put up a higher (say 6ft plus trellis) fence INSIDE the existing fence???

Might be the only way.

Margot

Oh i am sorry that your puppy has been scared by your new neighbours, poor soul. :-( I would put up a 6ft fence and make it a solid one, i.e. no gaps between the slats. That migh help the problem a bit. At least they wouldnt be able to see through. I dont know what you can do about them tormenting her with noises though. It seems like having a word may not work woth these people. I hope someone else can give you better advise.

Sending big <<<hugs>>> you your pup!!! :-)

I would call the police, they are intimidating you and scaring your puppy.

NannyOgg

I am seething for you! It's amazing that people like this were allowed to survive birth.

So, definitely a 6foot fence - solid, and I would go for a trellis on top of that too! I think your partner is right in talking to them (probably hopeless but worth a go) and you can explain that you are putting a fence up, and explain WHY. Ask them additionally to please restrain their kids from tormenting the puppy. Try and explain to them that they could (and are) causing her to be afraid of children and being in her own garden, and hope that somewhere in their small brains some part of this sinks in. Perhaps ask them how they would feel if something you kept doing (and could do it they keep on) was scaring their children so badly they were frightened to go in the garden. Having asked them politely, and if nothing is done, I would bl**dy well turn the garden hose on them! (oops, I always seem to be watering at that particular moment). However the deterioration tin your 'relationship' with these neighbours that would be an inevitable result would be untenable I suspect. HOPEFULLY the kids will get bored soon anyway, especially if they don't get any reaction from you.

I would obtain a sound desensitisation CD that has the sound of kids playing on it to begin to desensitise her to the NORMAL sounds of children playing, and work hard to introduce her to sensible children away from home making it a positive experience. Some stupid neighbours along the road set of a load of fireworks the other evening when I was in the garden with the dogs and my 6month lad bolted and was indoors shaking - so I've just got one of these cds for him (and it includes the sound of children playing), to try and undo the damage caused.

I can't think of anything else to suggest except the CD, plus when the kids are out in the garden for you both to ignore them (hard I know) and do a little training to occupy her mind, and receive the pleasure of her treats. Also to treat her every time she sees/hears the kids and doesn't react too strongly. If she sees/hears them treat her and take her inside for a game so its positive and try and build it up from there. I feel for you I really do. Let us know how the 'talk' goes, and keep working with your little girls confidence.
Kat

Whoa! Nannyogg that was a marathon post. I'm sorry for you and your pup. I agree that you should put up a 6 ft fence at least and hopefully those brats will soon get fed up if they can't see her. Let us know how it works out.

I think I am certainly going to take up this idea of a de-sensitisation CD - thanks for that - it is a great idea.

Hi NannyOgg,
How horrible for you,what vile ignorant people you live next door to!!

I have been reading alot of your old posts,as lots of them are relevent to our new puppy 'Daisy' (a Newfie) they have been invaluable.All the same sort of questions i need answering.

So sorry you are having these problems-i think i would go round and have a chat with them first before doing anything drastic, like calling the police.

Best of luck:) sarah x

Hi NannyOgg, that is quite some story, phew.

It sounds to me like you know what you've got to do, but you just need a nudge in the right direction and to know that other people agree with you, for some support.  Well - we agree with you - do something!!!!!!

It's a bit of a tricky situation though, because whatever you do, you run the risk of making things worse.  But if you do nothing, they will get worse anyway.

In terms of what to do with your puppy... Do you know any friendly children who can be trusted to do as they're told?  If so, go round to their house with some treats (hotdog saus or cheese is good).  I'm going to assume your pup is really scared with this description of what to do, because it's better to be cautious than to do the opposite and assume things won't be too bad.  To start with you might need to ask the kids to stand somewhere where your pup can watch them, while you feed your pup treats.  You need to make a new association in your pup's brain, which goes small kids = lots of treats/good things.  If your pup is ok with that, ask them to take 1 step forward.  You should offer lots of treats, and then they should withdraw and take several steps back.  If your pup was ok with that, repeated several times, then they should take another step forwards beyond the first.  Offer lots of treats and then they withdraw again.  And so on.  It's important they withdraw each time because it will help to release the pressure and make the pup feel that everything will be ok again.  (Imagine trying to get used to a snake coming closer to you - would it be more frightening if it went away each time and then came slightly closer, or if it just kept coming at you?)  When your pup is ok with them walking right up to her, they should offer her a treat - slowly, one at a time and then withdraw.  Repeat several times.  If your pup shows fear during any of this, you've screwed up and pushed things too far, too fast.

If you can't obtain small children for dog socialisation (!), maybe go and hang around outside a nursery school with your pup.  I'm sure lots of small kids will try to stroke her.  This will be harder to keep on top of and to control - keep shovelling the treats in while she just watches them.  If someone asks if their kid can stroke her, tell them that she is v timid and their kid shouldn't grab/shout/scream at her.  Try to give the kid a treat to give the dog.  If you can't do that, then you feed the dog a treat while the kid touches it.  If the dog is too scared to eat a treat, then you've pushed things too far and you should just do a lot of watching kids outside the nursery school and giving treats before trying that again.

Some other suggestions - I don't know if you can get small children round to your house, but it might be a good idea for you to do this exercise in your back garden, in the same place that your pup got scared.  Try to make sure your neighbour's children are out first though, because you don't want them watching! 

Another suggestion - do you know any other pups your pup likes to play with and gets incredibly excited and distracted, playing with?  One idea which could work is to invite them round to your house for a play, and to let them both race around the garden playing.  The idea here is that even if the kids are watching over the fence, your pup will be having such a great time playing, that hopefully it could make her have more pleasant associations with the kids over the fence.  (This is assuming that the kids won't chuck stuff at them while you're there.)  This is a slight gamble because it assumes that their enjoyment playing is greater than their fear of the kids.  On the other hand, their fear of the kids could be greater than their enjoyment of being with another puppy.  I still think it's worth a try, but if you see them getting scared and it's more than a momentary 'oh what's that', then go back in the house.

As for what you should do about all this - well, I'm afraid I would have gone ballistic quite some time ago.  Just in your one post I've counted many many incidents which could have a permanent and everlasting effect on your poor puppy.  I'm afraid that after maybe the first two incidents, I would have knocked on their door and had a serious chat with them about it, explained about socialisation etc.  If it continued, I would have had an even more serious chat, hinting at action that I might take.  If that failed, I would write them a letter and tell them that I am about to take action.  And then I would take it.  I would probably do other silly things too, like I would go up a ladder on my side of the fence every time I saw the children there, and I would speak to them about things - not anything about the puppy, just chatted.  Usually kids don't like talking to adults, especially if they can sense tension and I'm sure they would enjoy going up the ladder a lot less, if every time they went up their side, you went up theirs and spoke to them. 

I think you should write your neighbours a letter.  Explain to them about puppy socialisation (copy something out of a book, if you want it to sound official).  Then list all the things which their children do which affect the puppy.  Explain what the effects of this could be on your puppy.  Lastly, mention the fact that you find it is an invasion of privacy to have them looking over the fence all the time.  Tell them you are serious and you are now officially asking them to stop this behaviour.  Then tell them that if it doesn't stop, you'll have no recourse but to seek legal action and that you'll have no hesitation doing so. 

If it still continues, speak to CAB (Citizen's Advice Bureau) and stress the invasion of privacy thing.  Ask them what you should do.  They'll advise you.  If you have a community policeman, perhaps tell him - a little visit from mr plod might put the willies up them... 

edited to say - I love the garden hose idea - what about a sprinkler along the fence, which can be turned on somewhere they can't see?!?

>edited to say - I love the garden hose idea - what about a sprinkler along the fence, which can be turned on somewhere they can't see?!? <

One of my favourite thoughts ! ;)

Blimey so that's where my old neighbours ended up!!! I feel so much for you as I had exactly the same problem but almost worse in that the kids were actually coming from the shared close INTO my garden leaving the gate open so my pup could get into the close and under the gate to the main road. Luckily this never happened as after I spoke to the mother and she said it would be all right :( I padlocked the gate. Kids would shake gate and ask why it was padlocked to which I'd reply to keep you out.

They also poked sticks through gate which had mesh on it and screeched banged on dustbin in their garden the minute the dogs appeared. Eventually we phoned landlord(rented house) and he came and spoke to them and things did get a bit better but the dogs never went into garden alone after that Then they moved that was a day of celebration!!!

I'd try what people have suggested but wanted to say that my pup was fine with kids so with a lot of positive experiences I hope yours will be too

Anne

hello nannyogg,  is it a council estate you live in or privately owned estate?  if its a council estate you could go to the council offices and make a complaint. if it's a private estate i'dd contact the citizens information centre and find out what your rights are as far as privacy goes.  i had a similar problem with the children at the back of my garden. they used to be constantly climbing on the wall and would be taunting my own children, calling them names etc. and even trowing mud at them. still had my gsd at the time( sadly passed away) but she was old so couldn't be bothered chasing them off. anyway, the wall at the back of my house is 8 feet high and she couldn't jump up there anymore. anyway, i got tired of having to stand at the back wall and push them off, so i went to the council offices and made several complaints. apparently the parents got a letter stating that unless this antisocial behavious stops they would be evicted from the house. the parents came to my house and appologised and i haven't seen the kids on my wall since. there are legal ways of stopping the invasion of your privacy and for the sake of your puppy you should take them. forget about being polite, after all your puppies personality is being formed now and it can be very difficult to change it when she grows up. simply having a chat with your neighbors might work but from the sound of your post i myself would not put myself into that position as it is obvious that these people already know that they are distressing you and your little girl and think its a great game.

Quite honestly, :), I would kill them with kindness. 

Children aged 2 & 4 are not brats, they are babies.  They are interested in your puppy and that is normal, and actually healthy.

It is rude that they are looking over your fence all of the time, but they are too young to understand that and it seems their parents don't seem to understand it either.

Both the woman and the man have tried to make conversation with you about your puppy.  It sounds as though they've tried to be friendly, even though they've done some stupid things.  It doesn't sound as though they have deliberately done things to upset or scare you or your puppy, although quite clearly have done so.

Maybe what would work best, is to teach them about your puppy.  Talk to them, take the puppy to the fence to show them properly, and explain how they can smooth her gently, and how to talk to her.  Ask the man if he could stop barking at the puppy because it scares her... explain to him that although it might seem funny, that it is really frightening to the puppy and that she might associate that fear with his children and then one day pose a threat to them. Explain how lovely it would be if they could both gain something from each other instead.

You have an opportunity to educate your neighbours in a nice and kind way.  Your dog could actually meet some small children close up if you invited them over to play for example which would be good for her, so long as they behave and do what you say of course...which they probably would.  You could give them a few treats to hand to her.  etc.etc.

If you take everything they have done to be negative, and do the things like increasing your fence size now without explaination ... then yes, it is of course your right to do this, but you will probably lose the chance of having any friendship with your neighbours, and your dog will lose the opportunity of gaining a few child friends and may become even more fearful of them.

HTH to suggest a different perspective.

My first impression; go with the six-foot fencing for privacy.  Stockade style fence, the kind already mentioned where you can't see through.  Four foot spaced pickets are not going to offer no privacy with these neighbors.  Six-foot stockade, and put the nice looking side of the fence facing you, not them (horizontal back rails facing them) as an added touch of boldness.  Then again, that could give the parents something to step up and peek over; better reconsider) But, this doesn't solve your problem of the demon seeds kicking the bottom of the fence?  Eventually they're going to break some pickets.  You can always move the fence off the property line, sacrificing a few feet and get some nice picker bushes on the other side to discourage kicking.  In all honesty, if you're renting this house, get the heck out of there.  Some rental leases have a sixty-day breaker clause, find a new rental.  If you're a homeowner, six foot stockade and picker bushes.  Dog poops can be easily tossed on the other side landing along side your new picker bushes...makes for good fertilizer.

OOOh this sounds familiar !!- we had no neighbours when we moved in here - we live next door to the village school and the caretaker's house was not lived in. Then last Autumn a new caretaker and his family moved in - what a nightmare - they have 4 kids under 7 the youngest of which is constantly screaming they too spend a large proportion of their time peering over the fence at our dogs, throwing things at them and generally winding them up. After initially barking everytime they saw them, the dogs eventually started to just ignore them and peace reigned again. But then they got some cats - 3 cats - all of whom seem to think that my garden belongs to them -. The cats sit just outside the dogs kennels and know that they cannot be touched and all my lot go ballistic !!.

We a have a very large garden (1.5 acres) and several times during the school holidays have found the neighbours kids IN our garden climbing the trees and going into the chicken run (leaving the gate open too ). When I went round to complain the mum said she though my land was part of the school grounds  HA ! and she also complained that my dogs were frightening her kids by barking !!!.

The upshot is that we are moving - we exchanged contracts yesterday on a farmhouse in the middle of no-where with NO neighbours and although I will be sad to leave here - it is a lovely house in a beautiful setting , bad neighbours can make your life hell and we just don't want the hassle :(

Yvonne

Could you as suggested do something about the fence and maybe grow some nice spikey plants pyracantha is a good one quick growing you can keep it trimmedto be just at the top of the fence but if they lean over ouch do those thorns hurt,it is also very pretty,nice little flowers through summer and berries through Autumn and I believe its evergreen even if not it keeps it thorns.Good luck,I feel very sorry for you makes you realise how lucky you are when you have good neighbours.

Oh Yvonne, is that why you're moving? That's such a shame.

Why don't parents want to control their kids, and how dare they say your dogs are scaring her kids!! after you found them on your land and they even left gate open. Good grief.

I have had bad neighbours, although just now all the neighbours are brilliant, even across the road. I am surrounded by good people! Only hope it will be as good when we are in Norwich ....

Lindsay
x

Whilst i agree this is the fault of the parents (can they not understand you do want privacy even if your puppy and their kids did get on? ) I do feel the situation is very urgent; as 123 has said, many incidents have taken place already that could affect your puppy for life with children, all because of your neighbours not thinking and not having a clue or any sense of true neighbourliness. They have behaved very badly and upset your right to enjoy your own home peacably, so don't be too concerned about their feelings. I don't usually say this about people but they sound like complete idiots.

I would put up a fence urgently - try to talk to the parents but put up a fence anyway. I think your pup comes first.

The kids may put up a taller ladder or even bang on the fence - if they do, don't show you are upset or it will scare your pup more. Easy to say I know. And can you keep her out the garden for a while, or fence off part so that they can't see her or be too near to her and she feels safer?

If the kids still try to upset the pup (what will it be like when they are older - will they be worse or will they start to calm down - who knows with totally unaware parents?) what are the options?

Personally, if your neighbours are likely to be there for a long time, I'd actually consider moving. The stress of ongoing tension for years just isn't worth it.

Best wishes
Lindsay
x

Here's my two cents, after also having had stupid neighbour and dog problems.  I think a high solid fence might make things more difficult for your puppy because then she can't see where the scary sounds are coming from.  You need the prickly stuff growing on THEIR side of the fence, not yours.  But maybe you can find something that will grow up your side, to the top of the fence, really quickly.  I agree that perhaps the whole family needs to be introduced more formally and more closely to your puppy, and educated as to how to behave around her.  Some people just can't learn though, and unfortunately that was true in my neighbours' case.  But I still think it's worth a try.

I think you are right. I really don;t want to build a higher fence as I don't want to intensify this situation with my neighbours, but to my partners credit (and to some extent my own) we have tried to teach the neighbours about the puppy, and we have tried to talk to them about her and to get them to understand what having a puppy is like. I know the children are only behaving in a way they have seen is appropriate from their parents, although I stand by the fact I called them brats, as I do find it intolerable that they have thrown things at my puppy. There are other issues with these children and how they are raised that concern both myself, my parter and the neighbours on the other side of them, but that is irrelevent to the issue I have raised here. They asked this morning if their daughter who was celebrating her 5th birthday could bring 4 other children aged 4-5 over to see the puppy. My partner and I declined, mostly because we had spoken to the parents, and from their responce did not feel confident in letting them have access to her (I worry if she was to play bite or mouth at these small children's hands, I do not know the parents of these other children, and I do not trust my current neighbours enough for them not to claim their child was bitten by our dog, which would obviously have legal reprocussions - my neighbours think it is appropriate to ticket peoples cars with abusive messages as they do not believe cars, particularly 4 by 4's to be 'eco-friendly, and therefore owners are fair game for their anti-car opinions).  I have had another neighbours children visit regularly, two boys, aged 7 and 11 who come over, and they adore her and she adores them, and behaves in a very respectful way towards them despite how young she is (she seems to know they are 'children').

Oh my god!  I feel so sorry for you and your pup.

In a way I suppose you have to feel a bit sorry for the kids as they are being set a bad example of how to treat animals by their parents.  I definately agree with increasing the height of the fence, but is that really going to solve the problem if Mummy and Daddy have already provided the little angels with a ladder to peer over the top???

Perhaps a quiet word with the mother might help.  From your mail she sounds like the most reasonable out of the pair of them. 

I think introducing the puppy to other more normal children is also a good idea.  I'm not sure how old your puppy is, but if all else fails is it not worth taking her out of the house for plenty of walks (assuming you have time) and keeping her out of the garden for a week or two until the interest wains?  I know it's not ideal and you shouldn't have to do it, but it might be worthwhile in the long run and better for the pup...???

Best of luck to you they sound like the Adams family !!

I feel sorry for the children too as they are constantly crying and throwing uncontrollable tantrums - you know the kinds where they can barely breathe - and the parents will lock them out of the house as a way of dealing iwht it, which just sends these chidlren's frustrations down other channels. Also, when they cry, their father will either shout at them (my partner has heard him before and was shocked at the level he used with them) or he will 'play cry' back at them (like he did when he 'abrked' at my puppy in a realistic way, but with crying). These children never smile, accept on the rarest of occasions, never speak and cannot maintain any eye contact. When they are on the ladder looking over the fence, I have tried talking to them, only to be met by a long, slow and persistent stare from them both, with no words, no facial expressions, nothing. I cannot put up a larger fence even if I wanted to, as the street is full of privately owned terraces, but because of how these terraces are, neighbours are responsible for one fence only, and ours is the fence to the left (no probs with those neighbours) and not the fence to the right, which is their responsibility. I would not want to put up a higher fence as I worry this would cause the situation to get worse. I am only glad the owner of th eproperty has mentioned to me (before they moved in) that they were on a short term lease only, and they seem to not have a good word to say about the area so they may decide to move on. They are not bad people, just totally misguided and very self-centred. I don't have children because both myself and my partner have decided to leave having children until later. I have no problems with children, I love children, but they don;t seem to understand that we need privacy, and our privacy is being invaded by them allowing their children (and providing them with the means) to stare over our fence whenever they please, and for up to half an hour at a time. I can't even go out there in the morning with my PJ's on to pick up my pups poo without being watched. I am hoping though that my pups great interactions with the other hcildren who come over (two boys who live two doors up, and whose family have also raised the question of these two children next door, whether they are OK, and how they are constantly crying). She seems to really like them, and they adore her, so hopefully that will help to mend some bridges for my pup and not leave her with permanent issues with children.
Thank you all for your responces. I didn;t even imagine I would get so many - I just wanted to vent how angry I felt - I cannot explain how upsetting it was to see my beautiful 11 week old puppy, who only ever approaches the world with utter joy - to be shaking and cowering, with her ears pressed flat back and her tail between her legs, on more than one occasion because of these people. I was so upset I just needed to let rip somewhere! Thank you xxx

'The new neighbours arrived - a couple with two little girls aged 2 and 4. These children never speak, never smile, cry and throw tantrums constantly (to the point where other neighbours have commented), and the noise rom them is seriously an issue in itself. The children are often shut out in the back garden, or if you can believe it in the front which is near a main road where they will constantly ring on their doorbell and cry until they can barely breathe'

I am really concerned about the welfare of these children if they are often locked out of the house (especially near the main road).  I would suggest telephoning your local Social Services Children & Families Department...Children who never speak and never smile but cry and scream all the time might have a few problems that SSD could help with.

I agree with the above post, its not the kids fault especially if they are being treated like this and their parents are idiots.
I'd put  up a 6foot fence and phone the social services or rspcc, no need to mention your name, I'm sure yu can do it anonymously and mention that there are several neighbours concerned about these kids. They have to act on it.
I do feel for your puppy also but apart from putting up a 6 foot fence or becoming friendly with the kids and teaching them how to behave around a puppy I can't reccomend anything.
Good Luck and keep us posted.

OMG - now I know where my neighbours went

There's been some good advice given so I'll not add to it but please don't let it go on for too long or they'll think they have the right to do it, this was a mistake we made and then spent years paying for it.  It became very unpleasant and even threatening (my OH was threatened on several occasions and so was I)  Interestingly we put the word out that we were moving and before we could even get the valuers in they had a sign up selling the house ;)  Guess they were afraid they wouldn't be able to intimidate the next owners (at the time I had a few very large rugby player friends visit ;) and they decided to go :D

I think putting up the 6' fence is a good idea, so what if they don't like it - tough!  Before that you really need to speak to them in a non-confrontational way (difficult bearing in mind the situation) but explain why certain things are really upsetting you.  Then speak to your council (doesn't matter if you're private, their private or whatever) and most importantly keep a diary of everything that happens that you are not happy with.  Although your main concern is the puppy, if you can show that they are being unreasonable in other areas as well you may get the council on your side to help you and they can best advise you what they can do. 

We've been in the neighbour from hell situation before and the most important thing, whatever you do, is don't put it off DO IT NOW.

Personally I'd move if you're renting - problem solved.

If it's not that easy to move then I'd do the 6ft fence and contact the police and social services about their infringements on your property / privacy and the issues with the children being locked outside.

One thing I will guarantee you is that if you do not act NOW it will get worse, do NOT try to get on with them, see it from their point of view or try to involve them with the puppy - people like this are like vampires they slowly suck out your spirit without you noticing until you suddenly realise they are in charge of your life and everything you do is to avoid issues with them.

Do it now.

I totally agree about not wasting time in trying to sort things out.  From working on a tele service for Brent council that dealt with problem neighbours in this very rough London borough I learnt that police do not generally get involved in things like this unless the people are actually breaking the law and I mean violent behaviour etc.  The councils now have a lot of power in dealing with bad neighbours to the point of evicting them if the problems are sustained and bad enough.  If you can build up a diary it will act as evidence but you must involve the council early on so that they can see the 'story' and get a full picture.  Something that will add substantial weight to your case is if you can get your nicer neighbours to do the same or at least make complaints.  I also agree that I don't think making 'friends' will help as these type of people will see it as a weakness and a way in to taking liberties that may put you in an awkward position when you want to refuse because they know you want to keep things friendly.  For goodness sake don't let the children in or they will be forever knocking on your door.

If they are on a short term lease then i would complain to their landlord. Get other neighbours to complain too who have been affected as well. If the landlord has any sense they will not lenghten the term and ask them to leave. Also i would complain to social services stating what you have observed - keep a diary of when the kids are locked out and for how long making separte notes for when they harrass you and your pup. Keep notes on the parents behaviour too as if you have to take legal action they will ask this of you anyway. Video evidence with day/time will be best as well as photos to back up your diary. Seems rash but they have left you no choice so if your prepared better for you. As for the fence you can put up a bigger fence just that you will have to pay for it. Explain that it needs to be bigger as your pup when it grows up will be able to jump it and if they keep harrasing your dog it will turn into aggression with them and you dont want to take any chances or something along those lines. HTH

Hmmm... sounds a bit like you are tarring all bad neighbours as being the same as the ones you have regretably encountered.  Sounds sad :(

I feel sorry for you, and your pup, I don't have horrible neighbours but the kids constantly call and wind Oki up, I find that Me shouting at them works, as well as mum telling them off, but i feel that you cannot do this so i would go with the Hosepipe, i like that LOL. Good luck

"You have an opportunity to educate your neighbours in a nice and kind way.  Your dog could actually meet some small children close up if you invited them over to play for example which would be good for her, so long as they behave and do what you say of course...which they probably would.  You could give them a few treats to hand to her.  etc.etc.

If you take everything they have done to be negative, and do the things like increasing your fence size now without explaination ... then yes, it is of course your right to do this, but you will probably lose the chance of having any friendship with your neighbours, and your dog will lose the opportunity of gaining a few child friends and may become even more fearful of them."

Sorry, but after having bad neighbours which included being threatened at 12 weeks pregnant whilst my OH was at work I'm afraid to say that there is NO getting through to people like that - the OP's neighbours have taken away any opportunity of being friendly by their actions and if I was ever in that position again I wouldn't try to be nice and sort things out as it simply doesn't work.  If you have been lucky enough to have bad neighbours turned good through your kindness then brilliant for you, they IMHO obviously weren't the same kind of bad neighbours that we are discussing in this post - if you haven't had bad neighbours then no matter what you may feel you will *never* understand the emotional strain, stress and fear that they put into you and your children and animals.  You can try the police but in my experience they do not want to know - I telephoned them to explain that I was in the house, 12 weeks pregnant, with two small children and that my neighbours were stanidng outside my front door threatening me - they did nothing at all, my OH stormed home from work, banged on their door *accidentally* putting his fist through a pain of glass and then THEY called the police who turned up and told my OH that if he did anything like that again he would be bound over !!!! No mention of the emotional stress they have caused us, no mention of their threatening behaviour towards me whilst I was 12 weeks pregnant and that I was supposed to be taking it easy as there was a risk of me losing my child ! (who is thankfully a stocky little 8 year old now :) )

Put up a 6 foot fence, with extra trellis and the largest thorned creeping roses you can find and *accidentally* hose their faces every time they are peering over. 

This isn't fair. I've had 'awkward neighbours' of two kinds.

One set, when they leaned over the wall, had me in such fear that I nearly soiled myself. They swore, they threatened, they vandalised. They were horrible.

The other set were almost over-friendly. I couldn't go out in the garden without the parents or the children popping up for a chat, or the chldren wanting to come over (think of 'Neighbours' and that was them). When I went in the back field to shut up the livestock the children appeared to 'help' (and made the job 10 times longer). Your neighbours remind me of the second lot. Talk to them, get them onside. Nobody's taught them correct behaviour to dogs.|Unfortunately that seems to be your job.

Or you can pass the buck.

They dont seem (from what you've said) the type of people that you could approach - maybe they think their way is the right way.  I would never let my children be like that with the neighbours and I think if my hubby barked at another dog in that way Id leave him.....good luck X

wow,, most upsetting! I would highly advise an electric fencewith warning, that should teach them. Also, as people do to each other, a court ordered stay 100 yards away from my yard,, with a few police reports to back it up that your animal is being tortured and abused.. Which it is!  I think thatpolite neighborly convo is out! They are disrespecting you and feel they can ignore your polite requests as they obviously do not take you seriously. treat this as you would in protecting your child, a dog is not something to poke at or prod at, neither is watching on a ladder into your home.. What Voueyerism!! how disgusting,, what else do you think they are doing? and when they get older the touble the can cause.... Maybe even climbing over your fence,,, accidently harming your dog, torturing it,, feeding it bad meat,.,, who knows? but kids can be evil with parents who don't teach them a thing about respecting life, animals or humans....
I really thing that  this will lead to future sadness if something happens psychologically or physically to your pup,,,  even more so,, than just a pain in your ass as it is right now to deal with.

I agree, you have tried asking nicely and explaining that they are scaring your dog. I agree with the advice to call social services as the children sound like they are being mistreated badly as well - the parents clearly haven't got a clue! :-(

Here is my perspective after giving the situation more thought:
You mentioned the landlord stated they are on a short-term lease and they didn't like the area.  You can only hope that is true.  Tall fences make good neighbors, good fences make good neighbors, etc., however if they are indeed short term and considering your finances, you may not want to go that route.  Can't go wrong if you go with the new fence regardless, you never know what the next family will be like, could be worse.
     I wouldn't bother to become friendly with them either as some has suggested.  Let's assume you do become friendly, now they like the area and decide to stay.  You really don't envision yourself going over there and sharing some pints of New Castle Brown Ale together, do you?  Hey sweetie, can you watch the kids for just 5 minutes dear while I run to the market?  Then they come back 5 hours later with all kinds of excuses...don't bother.   We all for bad for the kids, but they are not your responsibility.  The extent of your concern should be to inform social services if you feel something is out of line, otherwise don't get involved.  It is not your job nor responsibility to teach, socialize, entertain, etc., those children.
   If I you were you, I would apply a 100% "cold shoulder treatment".  Don't give them any reason to like you, don't try to be nice.  You are already providing them with a service.  Your puppy is an entertainment factor to keep the kids amused.  They wait watching out the window for any excuse to get the kids out of their hair.  They see the puppy outside and it's "hey kids, the puppy is out, get outside now and amuse yourselves".  From what you described, they are not good parents, they lock the kids out of the house, and your puppy is helping them get what they want, entertainment for their kids.  The cold shoulder means you completely ignore them and don't even give them the time of day.  Come Halloween, and you see them heading for your door, shut the lights out.  Turn the lights back on when they leave, they'll get the idea.  For now, the puppy should not be allowed within the fenced in yard, not while this gang is next door.  You should take your puppy for walks on the leash, and don't go past their house, walk the other way.  If you don't have time to walk, outside to do business while on the leash, then back inside.  If they approach you on the sidewalk, head back inside.  Hopefully they will get the idea, you want absolutely nothing to do with them, and your dog will no longer provide entertainment for the kids.  Hopefully the short-term lease is indeed short-term and they will leave.  If they decide to stay, consider the fence.  Don't give them any excuse to stay.

I am pretty much taking your advice. I never particularly took to them, and my partner who is a far gentler, kinder and more tolerant person than me is also incredibly suspicious of them (oh, we over heard a comment made last week when the wife said to someone in their garden 'nextdoors garden stinks like s**t since they got that dog' (which I can assure you it doesn't as we pick up after her straight away and water down any area she wees straight after she goes, and I can assure you my garden smells like roses!)) My tactic now is to ignore them. If they choose to speak, I will be pleasant, but next time the children climb up on the fence I am going to have a word with them about how it invades my privacy. It is not like they are ever rude to your face, apart from these little nasty comments, like the one about how I give my puppy stangnant water (??!!) and the poo comment, but they always seem pleasant, but I don;t like the fact they are on the moral high-ground over cars etc. and yet they think it is ok to shut their children out of the house and it is ok to torment a puppy. I am not at all interested in encouraging them to stay and the neighbours on the other side of them are themselves sick to death of the constant crying from the children (which I must say isn't their fault, but there must be some reason why they are so unhappy/prone to tamtrums etc (the older child is also incredibly aggressive towards the younger girl, and makes her life a misery)), and so I can't see anyone here being overly upset if they did decide to move on. If worst does come to worst I will have a quiet word with their landlord (who is a priest), but I think the generally ignoring them tactic might be for the best, as a higher fence might irritate the landlord, and I don;t want to have to close myself off, and limit sunlight etc. into my garden because of their behaviour. We shall have to see. I must say though, since my partner has been coming out too into the garden with her, the children will climb onto the fence but they won't make noises or do anything (whatever it was they were doing to frighten the puppy), they will just watch and stare in silence at her. I can cope with that far better than with having our puppy tormented. Thank you all for your comments. As I said, I think I was just venting. It is amazing what an emotive subject neighbours are though. When I was growing up in my early teens, we lived near a very nasty neighbour. He not only broke into his nextdoor neighbours attic and moved the wall (yes!), he left dead kittens in our front garden (he hated 'foreigners' and I am only half English). We complained to the police and it turned out he was an ex-policeman himself who had been 'invalided' out of the force for his alcoholism. ANyway, it all ended with him and his wife setting their house on fire when drunk. Well, they do say there is such a thing as karma, but when I think of them and think of my present situatio, it is nothing in comparrison. It is so strange how my grandmothers generation, growing up in the south-west, relied on neighbours and community, and yet we seem to have more and more people who destroy communities and trust between neighbors by their behaviour. Who knows why, but it is very sad.

Try these sites for advice on NFH
www.gardenlaw.co.uk
www.nfh.org.uk/forums

They may have some advice

Maybe if you do report them to social sevices anonamously and they get a visit, it will encourage them to move on if they think that one of the neighbours is watching them

You can report them to Social Services on the grounds of Emotional Neglect.  Parents or carers are bound to prevent the child from behaving in a way that will cause serious emotional problems for the children in the future and they would need to look into neglectful behaviour, such as locking the children out of the house. Good luck.