Hello can anyone please advise me my pup is 20 weeks old and still biting hard it is beginning to get silly now as he does not listen to off or take a blind bit of notice when we leave the room ect and will attack our faces if we sit back on the settee i am concerned that 5 months old he should have stopped now i have been to training classes from 12 weeks old and everything else is going great please please offer me some help

thanks

What methods have you been using?  Have you asked your trainer for advice?  What did they say?

What feeding routine is he on, and what are you feeding?

Our pup is nearly 6 mnths old and we get certain times in the day when she has a bite,first thing in the morning,grabbing trouser legs etc,and laying by your legs and nipping the back of your legs we get up and move away,and in the early evenings she seems to have a half hour of challenging us,nipping at hands arms anything she can reach sometimes she will stop immediatley and other times it gets out of hand and she has to go into her crate for time out,then all of a sudden it will stop and she will be an angel for a few weeks,I believe they should outgrow it (I hope so) but you must remain firm and let them know you are in charge kindly and firmly.Our pup has never gone to bite our faces though.

Its not so much faces as it is ears mostly he likes ears and will tear at them given a chance he is quite a handfull

I am dis heartened as i have put alot of hard work and omney into training ect looking after him and doing things the way they are to be done that he may turn out a aggressive dog

Using the ian dunbar mathods as i have his book trainer just tells us to standf and turn backs which doesnt work at all three feeds a day morn 9am midday and 6 oclock evening

If he is going for ears do I take it he gets on the sofa with you,maybe you should not allow him on the sofa for a while until the ear biting stops and you have the situation under control,I know our pup will sometimes get on the sofa with us and it doesnt take long for her to start chewing our arms so we firmly remove her from the sofa and keep doing so until she stays on the floor. Its just letting her know who is the boss and her behaviour is not acceptable.

We have been constantly removing from the sofa he jumps up we put back down its hard going but he is determined little sod do you think this should have stopped by now people dont want to visit because of his biting and it seems we always have to crate him when people are here everyone says he shouldnt be doing it now at 5 months old

You could try making an ouch noise yourself this usually stops them and this method has been tried and tested by my bully!!It works!!!!

Makes him more excited

Hi dogsr4life - What breed is your dog?

Firstoff when your pup bites you (NOT just mouths you but actually hurts when biting you), shout OW very loudly, and immediately walk away.  Some pups might need more than you just walking away - they might need you to leave the room for a couple of minutes, then return. 

So in general you have the right idea with the Ian Dunbar method, but in addition to that, 1. shout OW - some pups find a high-pitched ow to be like another puppy squealing in pain, while others find a high pitched ow to sound like a prey animal and so they get even more excited.  Other pups find a low pitched ow to sound like a growl, but others take no notice of it.  So experiment with the pitch of your ows! 

2.  Try actually leaving the room for 2 mins, not just turning your backs.

3.  If he goes for ears, keep him away from your face!

To be honest doesnt matter what tone its in just gets more excited and barks at us we do leave the room when we come back in off we go again

Im not sure if any one else has suggested this ( sorry if they have )
but when this behaviour starts have you actually tried putting him out of the room into another room behind a dog gate? instead of you leaving...

i have used this method with my puppy and have found that with a little time away from us he calms down. he did bark and whine to start with but as soon as he went quiet we let him out, if he repeated we put him back again.we did this every single time and he now knows that rough play means game over and time out. :-)

The thing is it isnt rough play we are not playing with him at the time we are just sitting down and wallop out of no where he attacks our feet ect we did start at 8weeks old putting him behind the gate so he could still see us but he used to pee out there so then i had to open the gate to clean it up im sure he knew this couldnt leave it there either as he would tread and drag it all around the house :(

I think you should still try it. i know you said you tried before but he was a lot younger then. now he is older and will understand better that bad behaviour/ biting = put out and no fun or attention. it doesnt have to be for long, start with a minute and then  if he continues when he returns put him out again and leave him for 2 mins.

I know its hard but you have to persevere, It did take us about 2 weeks with kai for the message to sink in, now we just firmly say "out" and he knows that thats it game over (stop biting etc)  and we just walk him to his room and shut the gate. :-)

I think onetwothree is right keep him away from your face and I really think you are just going to have to be firm and consistent,has he maybe hurt himself and you havent realised and something hurts,or do you feel he is just being bloodyminded,if so you really need to be persistent.Like I say our pup sometimes bites a lot of the time it is attention seeking but they still have to learn its on your terms and it is tiring but you need to keep it up,try to focus on the times he is good and see if the amount of time he is good outweighs the times he is bad and then you will realise its maybe not as bad as you thought,I know I focus on the negative and when I sit down and add up the time ive had her challenging me it is really no time at all.

Thanks 1maximillion i will do that just frightening thats all that he will end up a bad penny

I know sometimes you think there will be no end to it,but he will grow up and I am sure into a lovely well behaved dog,just keep up the firm nos and removing him from you if he keeps on some dogs are more stubborn than others,and like I say keep focusing on thwe good things he does,I think it will surprise you.Good Luck.:-)

The trouble is some pups and young adults never seem to know when to stop biting and they will carry this through into adulthood and become bullies.A group of us doglovers were only saying recently that there seems so be more problems with aggression in the "modern" dogs of today than there ever used to be.Are breeders leaving good temperments on the back burner for good looks? Also there is only so much a family can take of this bad behaviour as it tends to disrupt the equanimity of the family as a whole.I hope it works out for you.

I'd try something different.

I'd get a rolled up newspaper and next time he tries to bite you, just smack the sofa next to you and yell Off at him.  (don't smack him at all ... it's the noise it'll make that I think may be effective).

or... if you don't like the idea of a newspaper

An emtpy tin full of dried peas or rice or somthing that will rattle and shake it at him and yell No.  He'll probably find that scary and back off too.

I doubt these are ways that would be advised by more experienced people, but they are what I think I'd try.

we have an 18 month old weimaraner and he still nibbles my ankles occasionally when i walk off! i also tried the whole "ouch" shouting, which got him even more excited like your puppy. The walking away didnt work either because as soon as i came back he got all excited again. luckily he has calmed down a lot now and if he gets too excited, i just grab his collar and tell him to sit. it calms him does as you've taken control of the situation and he knows you're the boss. If he still continues to bite i put him in the utility room on his own and he knows he's been bad. then when he gets out again ,instead of taking a flying leap at me, he runs up to me licking my hand as if to say sorry. i don't know if your puppy would react the same or not. putting him in his crate or behind the stair guard might not be enough as he can still see you, if you put him in a completly different room and use that room every time he has been naughty he should eventually learn. like 1maxmillion said, be persistant and don't show that he is bothering you otherwise the pup will think its a fun game because he gets a reaction out of you. he might just want your attention and knows that biting your face gets a good reaction. if he even attempts to jump up at you, lock him away for a few minutes then let him out and dont pay any attention to him. your puppy is only 5 months old so he is still young and learning how much he can get away with. i know how you feel because mine was just the same at him age, he even got to the stage where he ripped clothes. but he is a lovely dog now and doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body. please dont give up on you puppy! i hope it all works out for you!!

Morning dogs4life how is it thismorning,? dont worry we have had a very trying morning from about 7am to 8am,all sorts of tantrums jumping up biting etc., she has been in her crate more times thismorning than ever i think,one question what is your pup like after his walk ? is he calm Zanta usually takes about 1/4 hr to settle then she is really good all day sleeps most of the time,and if not asleep really calm,she gets walked about 8.15am  and then 8pm,but I am wondering if now the nights are getting darker earlier her body clock thinks she should be going out earleir (which of course we shall have to start doing)but dogs arent ruled by clocks,that will be earleir in the eve for a walk,although lastnight at bedtime she really tried it on something she never usually does got on the bed and started biting,she soon got ejected and after the second ejection she went downstairs and went to sleep, so dont worry you are definitely not alone. I am still convinced they are trying to to elevate themselves somewhere in the scheme of things and just need reminding hey you are not the boss and their hormones and everything,fwells2 post is encouraging as she says they do calm down and become great dogs,I have been here before and had forgotten what it was like I now keep saying oh this is what Max used to do and he turned out fine most loving dog to humans you could of wished for.(not keen on other dogs though).So chin up another day.If you ever need a chat and a moan PM me. :-)

Its all good advice and I am going to try and implement it. I have the same problem with my 5 month old rottie pup. she grabs hold of my trousers and sometimes catches my leg. I shout ouch, but this does nothing. I ignore her and walk off, but she still has her teeth in my jeans, she eventually lets go when I manage to find a toy. She has started trying to get our chins in her mouth, or trys to grab onto our arms. It is such hard work, but she hasn't chewed any of the furniture (YET).

Thanks for answering my questions - just one other thing - What are you feeding?  By this, I mean what brand - soft or dry food?  Is he eating most of it?

she's still a puppy , 20 weeks he's still teething as well. Keep correcting and just ignore her if she tries to bite don't fuss or she'll get excited and it'll become worse.

My 2 year olds still love to play tug of war with our pants , it's because we weren't to strict about this. We just didn't want them biting skin , which we were very strict in correcting.

Is he jumping up and trying to get at your ears , my dogs all nibble at the ears when we lay with them on the floor or sofa. I think you are expecting to much , 5 months he's still teething so it's not uncommon for nippy puppys at this age. Give it a couple more months of corrections.

It's not as bad as you make it seem - and it's not very uncommon.

I agree with you Manny, she is still a baby, but even when they are teething the biting on me needs to be discouraged when it hurts, don't you agree? I don't want her learning bad habbits and she needs to know the boundries. I don't mind her mouthing, but pysically hurting me is not acceptable, and I do not want a fully grown rottie doing the same. She has lots of other things to chew on while she is teething, ice cubes seem to be her favourite.

Sometimes, pups will get overexcited - you need to be firm but fair ;)

Example - the pup keeps jumping up on the sofa and you keep putting him off. Now, to him, this is like a game.He needs a consequence he can understand that at the same time doesn't scare him. I'd suggest keeping a long leadon him whilst you are in the house, and each and EVERY time he jumps on the sofa, saying "ah!" loudly...

You must, must must, get the tone right - imagine he was about to get boiling hot coffee all over him -it's that tone - emergency, warning, no nonsense... then, regardless, take him by his long lead and out he goes.

NO nagging, etc... no eye contact, or any command.or any interaction from that moment on! Just out for up to 3 minutes and back in.

He may do it again 0o repeat for up to 3 times, then 3rd time he stays out for up to 30 minutes.

Let pup in again and you may need to repeat again... but try to set pu up for success too, use stuffed kongs, toys etc to redirect and amuse.
Do a tiny bit of training for 5 minutes twice a day too.

This does work really really well and is firm but not hard on the pup - esp. if he/she is confident ... but you must be totally consistent, even if you are busy, eating, whatever.

I would expect to see an improvement within one week if you do this. Pup may be worse initially, this shows it is working and is called an "extinction burst" :p

I had a Mad Bitey Puppy - this is one technique i used.

Avoid rough housing, kids playing, etc unless calm and superivised.

Consider teething, pup discomfort, also factors like owners being out all day (not sure what your situation is) - not ideal as all pups would be very excited just when owners would be knackered :P

Hth a bit

Lindsay
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Good post Lindsay ;)

I think it's easy to forget sometimes that in trying to ensure the step by step approach to each situation and use reward and kindness to train, there's a time and place for a harsh vocal command - stops my lot in their tracks when they here "that tone" - including OH and progeny :P

Yes, I sometimes think we throw the baby out with the bath water in an attempt to train only with reward and kindness. Mama dog would roar loudly at a nipping puppy and she'd probably nip it back for good measure. The difference between Mama and many humans is that her timing is impeccable and she doesn't stay angry - the discipline is done in a flash and then pup gets a lick.

I  tend to use "ah!" really as a sort of "excuse me but that's not on" and it's got to the stage of just communicatoin now really, Banya never is phased by it but does respond to it :)

I do always feel concerned that things don't come across right on the internet, I'd much rather see someone and demonstrate in the flesh, as it were. I'd hate to think someone might read this and start yelling at a confused puppy instead... i do feel it it a reward based method in the sense that there's no physical punishment, just someone being a bit stern. If I didn't feel it was kind or fair, believe me I would not use it :D

I do feel strongly that reward based trainers must give advice that works and that you do need consequences sometimes... they need not be harsh at all, I would never use anything harsh and can't even remember my dog with her ears back :P  When training I use rewards and removal of rewards, works a treat :)

(Just in case there's someone out there about to pounce and start talking operant conditioning, I do understand that. I talk "everyday" language mostly on the net though :p).

Lindsay
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>I  tend to use "ah!" really as a sort of "excuse me but that's not on"

Me too. And if that's ignored, a loud "Oy!" sends everyone scurrying to lie down and look innocent! :D

That's my word too - except up in this neck of the woods it's spelt "Oi!"  -  (not much difference of course, except maybe spelt different in sign language to a deaf Dal )
tip-toes off quietly ......

(lol) have to try that one then thanks

:P

Lindsay
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Thankyou all for the great help in this situation i will certainly try these suggestions putting him in another room where he cant see us maywell work i will do that but do you recommend i do it with a toy or just put him out of the room alone? he is a very sociable little sole so i think this maybe the way to go he hates to be alone today hasnt been to bad yet? we shall see i have been constantly pulling him off the sofa no words ect just pulling him down and eventually he lays on the floor so far so good let you know how we go once again thanks all

You can put him behind a childgate  - that's what i did, my dog is also very sociable - they know theyare separate for a short time though :)

I'd tend to put him out without a toy, but if there happen to be toys in the area he will be put in, that's fine :)  I've done both with my dog.

You will also need to help him understand the difference between putting him out (as in ah!" ) and just being put out because you want to hoover the room, in the latter case, just use a pleasant voice, different command and give treats etc ;)

Lindsay
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