Our puppy met our friends puppy for the first time today (both of them aged 11 weeks), one a cocker spaniel and the other a king charles cavalier spaniel.  The KC was terrified of the CS, not shaking, but tail firmly between his legs and basically he lay on the floor completely still and the CS jumped all over him.  The KC didn't snap or move at all, but then afterwards, he wouldn't even look at the CS.  Is this normal behaviour for a KC pup?

Im sure someone will be along soon to offer some advice.

One quick question, Is this the first time the King Charles has met another dog?

Ali
:)

Er, why did you let a confident lively pup jump all over a less confident, shy pup???  What were you hoping to achieve??

If this happens, you should immediately stop socialisation.  Socialisation should be on equal terms with both puppies participating equally.  You can have two shy puppies together or two confident ones, but a shy one and a confident one spells disaster.  All that will happen is that the shy puppy will get even more scared, and will be more likely to be scared of other dogs forever (especially ones bigger than it), and the confident puppy will get even more confident and will learn to be a bully both to this dog and to others.  Disaster for both dogs.

What I would suggest is you now, as soon as possible, set up another meeting with your friend's dog to try to fix what's happened.  If you don't set up another meeting, the outcome I just described will probably happen. 

At your next meeting, make sure it's in a safe place where dogs can be off lead and do the following:

1.  Keep the cocker on a lead and tell the handler not to move around with it.
2.  Have the KC off the lead.
3.  Have a box of titbits available (cut up hotdog sausages or cheese are good).
4.  Throw the titbits around the KC's feet, not in reach of the cocker.  Encourage the KC to wander around and eat the titbits and watch him for signs of increased confidence.  Do this for quite some time, until he stops worrying about what's going to happen next and just eats the titbits.
5.  Start to throw some titbits nearer to the cocker, so the KC has to go within reach of the cocker to get them. 
6.  Stop throwing the titbits and give them to the cocker's handler.
7.  Allow the KC to control when he approaches the cocker and to walk away when he wants a break from him - the KC should be totally in control of the situation.
8.  It is better for the KC to have lots of little sessions of saying hello or playing and then walking away rather than one long one, but the KC will decide for you how long each 'hello' should be. 
9.  Each time the KC comes up to the cocker, the cocker handler can offer him a titbit, if he's not too distracted by the cocker to eat.  The cocker handler should also try to stop the cocker from jumping on the KC and to keep him calm if possible.  You can also try distracting the cocker by holding a stuffed kong for him to lick - that way the KC can sniff him without worrying about being jumped on.

You might also find it helpful if you can find another dog which is also quite shy for the KC to meet.  Whippets are quite shy, for example, and that could be quite a good match.

Why? .... We didn't know that the KC was going to react in that way :(

We'll try the plan you suggest as obviously we don't want this to cause a problem for either of them.

Hi Topsy,

Two small breed pups - same age - first meeting - one a different character to the other - all sounds like every doggy encounter I've ever seen ;)

Don't be alarmed - presumably you and your friend both want pups that are happy to interact with other dogs in a playful manner - with equality in both size and age IME it's the best way for the more shy pup to come out of it's shell.  He came from a litter of brothers and sisters I assume?  In which case he'll have been well used to rough and tumble and he survived that OK - he's just not used to it outside on walks because he hasn't done it before having his vacs etc.

If we were talking about an 11 week Yorkie playing with an 11 week GSD pup I'd be inclined to be a little more cautious - but we're not :)  Supervise the play of course just for practical safety purposes but don't molly coddle the shyer of the pups nor jeopardise the social skills of both pups.   Regards, Teri :)  

Thank you Teri.  I've been feeling very guilty since reading the other reply saying we might have jeopardised both their social skills :( 
Yes the shy pup had had littermates and he is quite confident at home ... my friend hadn't forseen that he was going to be timid.  My pup has been playing with my older dog and my 2 cats so is confident.  Why do you think the shy pup just froze and went so still rather than rolled over and showed his tummy?  

We do want these two pups to be friends as we hope to be able to walk together quite often, and maybe also look after each others pups from time to time if a need arises.

Hi - sorry - didn't mean to make you feel guilty.  I just word things a bit strongly, will try to tone down...

It's not a bad thing that the shy pup froze and went still.  That can be a form of uncertainty or even of submission in itself.  It doesn't matter how they respond to each other, just make sure that the play stays equal.  I mean - one pup should chase the other pup and then they should switch and the other pup chases back.  If one pup is always doing the chasing then that's bullying and should be stopped...

Hi - no probs about the tone of your message, I appreciated your comments about what to do next time :)

We'll do it differently next time as you suggested, and hopefully have a more confident reaction from the KC :)

Dogs will be dogs and it's important that they have as much socialisation when they are young as possible - this includes big dogs, little dogs, shy dogs or 'domineering' dogs.  The only way dogs learn to behave around each other is to really let them mix - if you see threatening behaviour starting then yes you can intervene - but with young pups the chances are they are 'all' tying to work out the hierarchy within the new pack.

In an idealistic world everyone will get along harmoniously including dogs, and all play will be equal, and there will be no bullies but i'm afraid that is eutopia and doesn't exist - in the real world dogs can be dominant or subservient, it's natures way.

Get another meeting together where you can have *both* dogs off lead - with supervision obviously - and just be patient and see what happens.

I hear what you're saying ... my CS is socialising a lot at the moment, we're taking him to lots of different places, letting him see and meet whoever and whatever is there.  The KC isn't having his second vax until Monday (the pups are only 4 days apart in age, but for some reason the KC had his first vax at 6 weeks and is having his second at 12 weeks... I have no idea why.  My pup had his first vax at 9 weeks and his second at 11 weeks)... maybe both are normal depending on vet??

We've been fortunate with the CS that he's been able to meet my mums collie and her friends springer, both of whom live on small holdings, are vaxed but don't have other dogs around, so the CS met them when he was 8 weeks old, also ducks, geese, chickens etc. plus of course we have a lab who's being extremely good with him.

The KC is meeting lots of children but his only experience of other dogs since he left his litter has been my pup yesterday, and the sound of a neighbours dog barking, and seeing another dog but whilst being held (owner not putting him on the floor because of the vax).

The behaviour with the two pups was playful on my pups part, he wanted to play ... bounced around yapping, tried tugging ears a bit etc. and the KC just froze and was scared. Both pups on a lead at that point.  KC went off for a sleep and when he'd rested, came back, and we let both pups off the lead (supervised of course and we were outside).  As soon as my CS was let off his lead he ran straight over to the KC.  The KC just slunk straight down to the floor, and froze (looked like he was pretending to be dead), and the CS got on top of him, pulling ears a bit, I think trying to make him play rather than bully him, but the CS was v.scared, so this lasted a very very short time, and I put the CS back on his lead and took him off in one direction and the KC was picked up and then went off on his lead in another direction, quite happily, not apparently traumatised or shaking etc.

I think if we had both dogs off lead again now, that the same thing would happen, the CS would just jump on top of the KC and the KC would freeze, so I think we'll try it with the CS on lead and the KC off lead at first.  :)  Thanks for all the advice though.

My CS will be meeting an older more boisterous puppy later today, so maybe he'll get a taste of having a bouncy dog bounce all over him ... we'll see :)

*it's important that they have as much socialisation when they are young as possible*

This is true but it has to be managed carefully.  Too many people just let their dogs off lead and sit back and watch them, and their idea of what is 'threatening' is not the same as the dog's idea.  I once took a young pup to a friend's house, and this friend had a golden retriever pup, the same age as mine.  At first it looked like play, but then his dog started to bounce on mine and to chase it - if mine picked up a toy, the other dog instantly took it from mine, while mine cowered.  My dog was well socialised with other dogs and didn't really want to interact with this other dog at all and would have been quite happy exploring the room and the toys in it, but every time my dog left my side, it got chased by this other dog, eventually caught, and rolled with on the ground in rough play which it didn't really want to be taking part in.  It started to yelp when the goldie pup did this, but that had no effect on the other pup.  My friend, watching, thought it was all fun and they were 'just playing', but no, they weren't BOTH just playing, which is the important thing. 

"i'm afraid that is eutopia and doesn't exist - in the real world dogs can be dominant or subservient, it's natures way"

I'm afraid I disagree with this.  I think if socialisation was carried out more carefully, there would be a lot fewer maladjusted dogs around.  Too many people have the attitude of 'just let them get on with it' and 'they have to sort it out amongst themselves' and it leads to a lot of dogs with poor dog-dog interaction skills.

*This is true but it has to be managed carefully.* - well yes that is common sense, and good responsible dog owner would never leave two dogs to it without supervision - this could be why I said at the end of my post :

*Get another meeting together where you can have *both* dogs off lead - with supervision obviously - and just be patient and see what happens.* !!!  Not sure what you didn't understand there ?

We may not like it but it is a pure and simple fact that some dogs are, and always will be subservient - just the same as people, you have people who have a get up and go attitude and some who will always 'follow' others - actually watch dogs in a group and children in a group, it's not bullying as that is something completely different, it's called hierarchy and we 'all' take place in it.

Maladjusted dogs in my view tend to come from homes where there has been no socialisation, minimal human interaction and basically the dog is ignored and left to get on with things with a quick back hand when it has done wrong in the humans eyes (witnessed it and helped dogs get over this) - dogs must be allowed to interact with each other with human intervention at obvious times.

Eutopia I'm afraid doesn't exist and can't exist but responsible dog ownership and allowing dogs to interact as dogs can and does quite happily every day.

Supervised socialisation is important, but on lead meetings can also go seriously wrong with the dog on lead feeling trapped and this can also lead to agression - don't ever push a meeting because you feel that both dogs should get on you will only make things worse.

I agree with all you say in this 2nd post, Boxer Mum.  All I would add is that often dogs are subserviant to one dog but not to another.  Or dominant towards one but subserviant towards another.  That is, it's not a fixed trait, as with your comparison to people, but a more fluid thing. 

We do all take a place in hierarchy and hierarchy is good when dogs are happy in it.  However, not all dogs are happy with their place in hierarchies and then people need to intervene.  I'd also add that sometimes confident pups don't mean to bully another pup and it's nothing to do with hierarchy - they are just more outgoing pups in general.  And shy pups don't know they're being shy - they are just shy.  I'd be wary of applying labels like 'subservient' to puppies, when puppies' characters are not yet formed.  Labels don't do anyone any good, all you can do is manage each encounter.

Yes, I agree with what you say about on lead meetings in general, however keeping a more confident puppy on the lead allows a less confident puppy to be in control of approaching or getting away from the puppy on the lead.  We're not talking about aggression here, in which case I agree that leads get in the way - we're talking about different levels of confidence, and the shy pup needs to feel more control.  The problem is that shyness is ok if it's just shyness, but when does shyness become fear?  And we all know what fear leads to....aggression.  To be honest, I don't believe that any dog is HAPPY being shy around all other dogs, and I'd be wary that it was in fact FEAR...

And some will be dominant over issues like food or attention, and vica versa.  My own older bitch will tell other dogs NOBODY messes with her food, but will yield with respect to my affection if asked by my other bitch....

The KC seemed to me to be afraid, not submissive. 

I think that if the CS is on a lead, and the KC has control over whether to come over to say hello or whatever, I think the KC will just stay right away from the CS.  I'll update you when we next meet on what we do and on what happens.

My pup incidentally, met another pup today, and they had a great time, rough and tumble play, chasing each other etc. each taking it in turns to be the one chasing or the one showing his tummy with the other on top of him.  I think my pup is a very confident pup, but he certainly wasn't even attempting to bully the pup he met today.  The other pup was older and bigger than him.

Hi again Topsy,

Is it possible for you to take your puppy to visit your friend's at her home where hopefully her puppy will be a little more confident, being in it's own environment?  Just a thought, but it might help

Regards, Teri :)

Yes, this is what we'll do.  Going to do it this coming week, just my friend and I with the 2 puppies and no other distractions either.

Just a point - let them meet on neutral territory, not mutual territory. It makes a lot of difference. ;)

LOL - that is actually the word I was intending to put down - why mutual came out heaven knows LOL :)

They met on neutral territory last time.  I think that this time we'll meet on the KC's territory so that he feels more confident.

"I think the KC will just stay right away from the CS. "

This is where your use of the titbits come in - just chuck them near the CS or give them to the cocker's handler to offer.  Be patient - it won't happen immediately.

Also your pup's behaviour will often be totally different depending on who the other pup is - it sounds like this other pup he met today was much more his match in terms of confidence levels.

Sorry if you misunderstood my comment 123 - I know we are not talking about aggression but I was just making a comment that on lead meetings can go very wrong and that this can lead to aggression.

I agree with teri, try to arrange a meeting on the KC's ground - this could help a lot, then slowly after a few more meetings in the KC's place you can start introducing them on mutual territory - a slow process but one that could possibly work.

Don't forget that if a puppy has another older dog at home, or regularly plays with older dogs, it may be getting away with  behaviour that another puppy just can't tolerate.

Is the "King Charles"actually a Charlie or a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel? Although related the two are separate breeds with totally different personalities & if the King Charles is a Charlie then they are not as outgoing as a Cavalier & much less demonstrative & can be quite reserved, so it would not be unusual behaviour from a Charlie.

Cavaliers are different, they when sure of other dogs are very(well should be)outgoing & in your face with other dogs.

Play between puppies of diverse size should as others have said be quite controlled, especially if one hasn't had much interdog experience apart from being at home with siblings & mum.

Hi Moonmaiden

The KC is a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel... I think. The two pups are not all that different in size as the other pup is a cocker spaniel and they are exactly the same age (4 days apart)