Our Westie puppy, Alfie, is frustrating us. Just when we think he is house trained he pees in the house. When we first got him we used Training Pads. It took a few days to get him used to using them but he adapted quite quickly. He would wander over, squat and pee. He had quite a bit of disruption in his first couple of weeks with us (1,000 mile round trip to Edinburgh and a week staying at my parents) but it didn't seem to knock him out of his stride. He is excellent at night. We put him in his crate at between 22:30 and 23:30 each night and normally go down to him between 06:30 and 07:00. He is dry every night. As soon as I take him outside he pees. We use "Busy" as the trigger and this seems to work.

It is during the day we have the problem. The layout of our house means the back door is off the living room and given the good weather we have been able to leave the door open and allow him to wander in and out. A couple of weeks ago we moved the training pads outside of the back door and he quickly adapted. He seemed to be making very good progress with only a few accidents but these last couple of weeks things have gone backwards. At least once a day he has pee'd in the house. It is not a case of "not making it" in time to go outside as he is coming in from outside and peeing on the carpet. He seemed to concentrate on a large rug in the hall but once we removed the rug he stopped peeing there. Now he pees at random locations in the livingroom or hall. There appears to be no pattern. He will happily wander outside, pee, come back in and play or wander around. A short time later will will see him peeing or find a damp patch on the carpet.

Today we had left him for around 4 hours. He was dry when we got back and, on taking him outside straight away had a long pee on the grass, which was great. A short time later, after he had eaten, I was getting his lead ready and turned round to see him peeing on the carpet.

Not wishing to tempt fate but he has not poo'd in the house for quite a few weeks which pleases us no end! :-).

Are we expecting too much or is there something we can try?

He is only a baby & will have lapses from time to time, just clean it without comment & masses of praise & treats when he goes outside. Be grateful he's pooing outdoors :D

Hi - If I were you, I'd stop using the puppy training pads.  I hate those things.  They confuse the dog, and that's probably what's happened here. 

At first you left the training pads indoors.  So the puppy got the message 'it's ok to toilet indoors'.  Now you want to teach the puppy 'it's NOT ok to toilet indoors'.  That's where the confusion comes from - whether you've realised it or not, you are now having to untrain something you have previously trained.    Very hard for a small puppy which doesn't really know how to learn or 'be trained' yet anyway.  Some pups seem to learn fine with puppy training pads, but the number of times people have told me of problems they've had with them, I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole now.

The best and quickest way to toilet train a pup is never to use paper or puppy training pads and to take him or her outside frequently and praise and offer a titbit when s/he does it in the right place.  That way indoors ALWAYS = wrong.  It's very clear.  If the pup goes in the wrong place, ignore it and clean it up - and be angry with yourself because you should be watching your pup closely enough that it can't toilet indoors - it's never the pup's fault, remember, only yours.

By the way, you also can't/shouldn't be 'allowing him to wander in and out' - little puppies need to be accompanied to the toilet by a responsible adult (!) so that they can be praised and treated when the go in the right place.  How is the puppy supposed to know that he's gone in the right place if you're not there to praise and reward him?  And how do you know if the puppy is empty or full if you haven't watched him to see if he went?  You also say that he comes in from outside and pees on the carpet - if you were taking him outside, you would wait out there with him until he went, reward him, and ONLY allow him back inside when he is empty!  Close the door to outside, don't let him wander in and out, take him out frequently and supervise him - he won't train himself!

If I were you, I'd stop using the puppy training pads.  I hate those things.  They confuse the dog, and that's probably what's happened here.

We stopped using the Training Pads indoors quite a few weeks ago. We still use them on the patio to mark the spot we want him to go on and more often than not he goes there.

By the way, you also can't/shouldn't be 'allowing him to wander in and out' - little puppies need to be accompanied to the toilet by a responsible adult (!) so that they can be praised and treated when the go in the right place.  How is the puppy supposed to know that he's gone in the right place if you're not there to praise and reward him?  And how do you know if the puppy is empty or full if you haven't watched him to see if he went?  You also say that he comes in from outside and pees on the carpet - if you were taking him outside, you would wait out there with him until he went, reward him, and ONLY allow him back inside when he is empty!  Close the door to outside, don't let him wander in and out, take him out frequently and supervise him - he won't train himself!

In the interests of brevity in my original post I missed out some details. When he does go outside one of us goes with him. We encourage him with "busy" to go on the Training Pad. Recently he has been a bit relucant to go on the patio as he has discovered the delights of the wooded/large shrub area in the garden. This is not secure so we can't let him wander there as we may never get him out. Also, there are numerous escape routes and it would be impossible to cut him off!!

The situations I have mentioned are when we have been outside with him on the patio, garden or local area and once we have got back in he has pee'd. Sometimes it has occurred if he has been outside with us for a considerable period and then we have gone indoors for some reason and he has followed us in a pee'd on the carpet.

OneTwoThree has made some good points, but you also need to remember not to panic. Our 11 month old was toilet trained at night very quickly (just like yours) and we thought he was doing a fantastic job. We never taught him to go indoors, and seemed to spend hours of every day getting up in the middle of what we were doing to take him out if he even moved near the door. As a result he knows to ask to go out, although he does try it on sometimes if he just wants to go and chew flowerpots (another story entirely and all down to my OH!).  However, he did have several lapses where for a week or so he would just come back in from the garden and wee on the floor.  This only happened a few times, but I think the last time happened when he was about 6 months old or so.  It doesn't mean that they have forgotten what you have taught them, so just keep being consistent and make sure that your pup associates the outside with going to the toilet.  And please don't slate me for saying this, but all the Westies I have known (not a massive amount admittedly) have been a bit on the lax side with toilet habits, and as everyone has said to me when I've worried about my little one "Just remember, he's only a puppy!".

Bichons must have got the record for indoor piddles! try training one of them! In saying that they have the Sunniest natures and the brains of Einstein! I would not worry about your Westie,he is doing magnificently,and all this at 15 weeks!! WOW!!

Remember, at 15 weeks he is still very young, be patient ;)

I agree about puppy pads, I'd not use them purely because of the initial association with it being fine to do it indoors. I suspect he still thinks it's oK to do it indoors.
Do you anticipate when he needs to go - ie after waking, after play, after food - as then you may be able to break the actual habit of him going indoors and that will greatly help. It seems you are doing it all mostly right, keep rewarding him for being outside and give a small tasty food reward just literally as he goes or just after :).

Do you chase him or shout to keep him away from any area... a long shot, but if so it may be  putting him off a bit as he may anticipate some confusion/kerfuffle :P

Lindsay
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He's a baby! Don't use puppy training pads. Your contradicting yourself by asking why he is peing indoors but you are allowing him by laying down the puppy pads INDOORS. Trash those , work on taking him out frequently like right after he eats and every 1hr-30 minutes. Good Luck!

Have a good read at my posts. We used the Training Pads indoors the first few weeks that we had him but the only place we use them now is on the patio in the location we want him to pee on.

Hi Gaza,

I can see why things appear to be focusing too much on the training pads - but there is a logical link, even although you now restrict their use to the patio :)

Your puppy is still very young so does not have full bladder control, although you've done well to get him mainly clean and also only defecating outside.  You're gonna hate this :P BUT I'm only trying to help so if you want to shoot me don't aim to kill in case in the future (and you never know) you just might want to ask me something ;)

(deep breath) Here it goes:
If you want your puppy to toilet outside he has to have NO association with doing so inside and the training pads ARE an association because you did use them indoors at one time.  If he is to be confined to peeing on patio (presumably some sort of stone) then you have to get him used to that specific surface - he thinks soft, comfy surfaces are his area.  My dogs for example would hold on until they burst rather than go on hard standing because they are trained to go on grass and always were - no training pads, newspapers were damaged in the course of their training :P

Try ditching the training pads completely and keep up your otherwise excellent routine of supervised only toilet outings at regular intervals and when he performs to your command word treat and praise lavishly.  If you do this diligently for a couple of weeks you should be totally accident free - but IMO you have to ditch the training pads altogether and concentrate on teaching him that the patio and not the soft surface is where he should eliminate.

HTH when your blood pressure returns to normal ;)  Good luck, Teri 

Your puppy is still very young so does not have full bladder control, although you've done well to get him mainly clean and also only defecating outside.

For a small puppy he does seem to have very good bladder control (and capacity :D ) when he wants to. Last night he did his last pee at about 21:30 (I tried again at 22:30 but he would not do anything) and did not go again until 06:50 this morning. He was still half asleep when I went down to him and he was in no rush to go outside. Once he started I didn't think he was going to stop.

If you want your puppy to toilet outside he has to have NO association with doing so inside and the training pads ARE an association because you did use them indoors at one time.

Thanks for that. It makes sense.

If he is to be confined to peeing on patio (presumably some sort of stone) then you have to get him used to that specific surface - he thinks soft, comfy surfaces are his area.  My dogs for example would hold on until they burst rather than go on hard standing because they are trained to go on grass and always were - no training pads, newspapers were damaged in the course of their training

He is becoming reluctant to go on the patio and we have to take him on to the grass more and more. From what you are saying this is probably becoming his preference. In one of the books I read they talk about dogs developing a substrate preference. Grass is probably his.

Try ditching the training pads completely and keep up your otherwise excellent routine of supervised only toilet outings at regular intervals and when he performs to your command word treat and praise lavishly.  If you do this diligently for a couple of weeks you should be totally accident free - but IMO you have to ditch the training pads altogether and concentrate on teaching him that the patio and not the soft surface is where he should eliminate.

What we were hoping to achive by making him go on the patio is that when he is older we to be able to let him out without having to follow him around the garden. As I said earlier the gardens have lots of escape routes and we may never see him again.

Hi again Gaza,

>What we were hoping to achive by making him go on the patio is that when he is older we to be able to let him out without having to follow him around the garden. As I said earlier the gardens have lots of escape routes and we may never see him again

I can understand your concern and assume that there is a reason that you can't fence off the area.   Trouble is that dogs do like to investigate, so even if you are able to train him to only toilet on the patio, his instincts and attractive smells coming from areas which are grassed and have shrubs etc will naturally take him off to nose around ;)  Is it possible for you to perhaps plant some low(ish) box hedging separating the area of garden allowed and that which could be dangerous?

Regards, Teri :)

Gaza, not sure if that was directed at me or Manny - but as Teri has pointed out :P the fact that puppy pads were used initially has had an effect, regardless of how, if or when they are used now :) hence my comments.

Lindsay
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Hi Lindsay

Not shooting anyone down. :D I was commenting on manny saying Your contradicting yourself by asking why he is peing indoors but you are allowing him by laying down the puppy pads INDOORS. I thought my posts were quite clear that we no longer used the pads indoors (and hadn't for quite a few weeks) but manny seemed to have missed that.

:) No problem

Lindsay
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I love that word - Kerfuffle!!  :D

:D  I know, it's a good one :P

Lindsay
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Hi Lindsay, could you have a look at the "chasing vans" thread? 

Thanx, Teri ;)

Moi? OK :P

Lindsay
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Well SORRY , i just don't go down and read all of everyones posts. Just throwing suggestions at the OP.