Hi, any advice on how to stop puppies from chasing vans? Our 19 month old has suddenly began chasing vans in our local park. Ok, you don't see many of them in the park but there are quite a few park vans around there at the moment and he chased one out onto the road a couple of days ago. He chased someone in a land rover today and it was slightly more understandable as he'd been trying to play with the spaniel who had just got inside with their owner. But with regard to the park vans, I can't understand why he does it. It's only started over the last few weeks. He also chases the grass cutters which is very dangerous. I have no idea how to stop him doing this. Would anyone have any suggestions on how to teach him it's not a very good idea?
thanks Margaret

How about .... telling him that it is really dangerous and he is a naughty puppy and he is going to get his bum smacked lol

Sorry funny mood

Hi Margaret,

What breed is your dog - one of the herding breeds by chance?  If he is a Shepherd, Collie, one of the sighthounds etc or a cross with any of those breeds it is not unheard of for them to take up chase - they have a very high drive re fast moving objects :rolleyes: 

At 19 months he could well be turning into a slightly late "Kevin stage" when all of a sudden previous good manners and reliability on the training front can temporarily fall on deaf ears.  Obviously, with this particular issue, for safety reasons you have to prevent his ability to chase anything until you have regained full control.  This will mean that he can't have entirely free running - use a long line to give him enough scope to stretch his legs but keep you in control if something appears which is likely to set him off.  Keep practicing and reinforcing his recall, preferably by distracting him from something he is likely to chase.   To do this use a specific *high value reward* - an unusual treat such as cooked liver, roast chicken, cheese or if he's not food orientated then a special toy saved for training purposes only ;)   The fact that this is very recent is in your favour - if he's been well behaved up until now you clearly put in the work with him early on and know how to do it again :) 

It can be a bit of a blow to our self-confidence when they seem to take a backward step or completely invent an undesirable behaviour overnight but with patience, perseverance and the all-essential removal of his opportunity to do so, you should find that he will settle again after a couple of months but patience and consistency are the keys here.  Good luck, Teri

At 19 months he is not a puppy he is in late adolescence, many (not all) puppy habits are reasonably easy to deal with but if he starts something at this age it will be hard to deal with. I would not dare guess why he started so sudden but he has learned to reward himself with it and its that reward element which is important to deal with not why he is a dog and many of them chase, duno how I would try and deal with it, hope it soon gets sorted out though.

I was going to copy and paste which part of your post I found to be least helpful, but as it appears in it's entirety to consist of undermining both the OP's confidence in being able to overcome the problem and my reply then that's hardly necessary.   Had you at least the courtesy (presuming you have the ability and experience) to recommend a possible solution, it may have been less offensive.

Teri

Hi Teri, thanks for that advice. He's a standard poodle and I'm told they are a very intelligent and very trainable breed. Sometimes I find the problem is that his mind is so active. He's easily bored and needs lots of stimulation which I discovered early on. He gets about 1 hour minimum walk in the morning and he's often getting around 2 hours in the park in the evening at the moment because the weather has been good. And he's got lots of doggy friends up there. He's certainly not suffering from a lack of play which could sometimes be the root of naughtiness when he was younger. I've tried to deal with the situation by going back to basics and reinforcing his 'leave' command and I had better results with him today. He was neutered at about 13 months (I don't want to reignite that particular topic but mention it because it seems relevant here)  and since then he has had spells where he is truly a pleasure to walk with...and I mean quite long spells where he's really quite obedient and very easy to control. But every so often he has a few days of extreme naughtiness and I'm prepared to live with that. It goes with the territory of a young dog. But I just don't want this particularly dangerous behaviour to become too established and then impossible to control. I'm thinking of advanced training class. He did the basic puppy class but maybe it's time to do more training. 

Hi Margaret,

I've heard that Standard Poodles ARE extremely smart - but I've only ever met one so defer to your personal experience on that ;)

The first thing that springs to mind is he's actually getting an awful lot of exercise.  I own a highly energetic breed that is known to have a high prey drive (them) and pray drive (owners) :D BUT even my adults at their peak of condition wouldn't get 3 hours daily - apart from the fact that I'd not be physically able to keep up with them, it would make them demand more and more.  I mention this because it may have a bearing on his behaviour in general :)

I'd try playing some "mind games" with him before going for his walks - mental stimulation in intelligent and active breeds is an excellent but often under used tool when trying to "take the edge" off them.  I do think you should try and keep him on a long line when possible - which will obviously not be suited to him running loose with his doggy friends but it does mean that you can ensure that he can't chase off into the distance and certainly not endanger himself and others by chasing vans etc.

Perhaps you can time his exercise so that the park vehicles will be finished for the day and let him have his free running with other dogs then but have him either on a regular lead or a long line at all other times until you can re-establish his recall.

If you can get him into a good local advanced class then it's definitely worth it but ultimately it's your one on one training that has had a temporary dent - my own breed can be VERY selective with their willingness to comply from around 14-24 months BTW so I can appreciate how you feel.  Best wishes, Teri :) 

hi Teri, this is really useful advice. I didn't think about him getting too much excercise. I was aware of that as an issue when he was a very young puppy in early devel but it didn't occur to me it might be counter-productive.  What do you give your dogs? And with regard to mental games....I'm interested. Can you give me some examples? He used to get pre-occupied with a kong for quite a long time which I'm told is quite mentally stimulating. Is there anything else you could recommend on that front as I've always been convinced that bad behaviour with him is largely inspired by him being very mentally active. 

Hi Margaret,

Between 1 hour and 1 1/2 hours maximum - virtually all their exercise is free running (due to my own health) but TBH it's probably better to make it around 1/3rd lead work to keep an eye on potential problems that could be brewing unnoticed and also develop even muscle condition and keep feet tight and nails short ;)  By all means split it into his morning and evening routine but work around when he is least likely to meet the park vehicles. 

Re. mental stimulation, teaching tricks is good - any kind of tricks limited only by imagination!  If he already knows all the basic obedience like sit, stay, down, roll-over, paw, try working with them so that roll over for example is a full turn, give a paw develops onto "high 5", following the down command try having him "creep" for a couple of feet etc.  Can you set up some weave poles for him in the garden perhaps?

Hide and seek for a special toy or treat, even part of his meal ration if feeding dry kibble - something he has to use his nose and wits to find that he'll get excited by but have to "work" to resolve it (not too much quantity on the food front of course before exercise). Kongs are good but personally I think they're more suited for when the dog is being left - if you're around it's better to have interactive games with him :)

Out of interest, how is he with regular traffic if you do road walk him?  Also if he's in the car - does he become excited by moving traffic there too?

 

hi, re road traffic, has very little road sense unfortunately, he'd walk in front of cars, but not interested in them at all. He's not often in cars as I don't drive so we walk everywhere or use public transport. When he has been in cars he gets travel sick so doesn't tend to show any interest. He never chases bikes, joggers anything else. For some reason it's sparked off only by the park vans or grass cutters. Very odd because it started so recently. One thing that does occur is that we sometimes sit at a cafe locally in the evening and he seems very excited by cars passing at night time with their lights on. I'm sure he'd chase then but is obviously on the lead on those ocassions so doesn't get a chance to.
And I just wanted to say, although we have specific problems with him at times and it gets v frustrating, he's a brilliant dog at home, so well behaved, sensitive and affectionate. He's very good natured. It makes these stupid things doubly frustrating. He's always been very boistrous outdoors. Very confident.

Hi :)

I think you've had some fab advice from Teri already, and i'd agree with everything she's suggested :).

Out of interest, can you recall how often he has chased the vans and grass cutters, and how far away you are from him when he does this?
Do you feel he would be the same and try to chase even if he were on the lead?

It is a good idea to do regular training each time you take him out in the park - just 5 or 10 minutes each time of fun stuff, getting hin to pay attention, stays, sits, waits, recall etc... depending on how good he is out and about, you may need to train him a little away from distractions to start and then gradually move nearer to them. I'd also recommend using top value food rewards such as liver, chicken, sausage and cheese (or whatever floats his boat the best ;) ). Also try to get him hooked onto a special toy that he will die for - I tend to find that food works great for training, and toys for real motivation :) Clicker training is excellent and will work his brain.

The training willl mean that he will be used to listening to you in the park and situations he may not normally be so attentive. It will become habit over the months until at 3 years or so, all this will start to be repaid ;)

One rule is to nevr let him "practise" his behaviour, or he will enjoy it more and get more and more reward out of it. So do whatever you can (eg as Teri said, long line/lead) to prevent this.  Also do be careful of the lights as you mentioned, i'd suggest avoiding this situation - shame really, as i expect you enjoy your cuppa at these times!

I would also suggest taking him near to vans, as they are still,and rewarding for calm behaviour, and being near when they drive off but being aware of his own "critical distance" -he should be ideally alert but not bounding and ready to chase. Reward for good behaviour, and over the months you will find you can get closer andd he will stay calm.

Of course, this is not the same as safety off lead, but it all helps to desensitise him.

Finally, I'd suggest teaching an excellent Leave it - I use this as an emergency and rarely use it around the house or for small things - but to teach it you do need to get him highly motivated for a toy (or you do the way I teach it!).
Leaving has to be highly rewarding and also to be taught so that the dog knows that when he hears the command, he has no chance of getting what he is after... a good reward based trainer may be able to help here :)

Hth a bit
Lindsay
x

thanks for that. I've really appreciated the good advice I've got here and I think that reinforcing the 'leave it' command is something I really have to do. I do think that an advanced training class may be the answer because I'm a first time dog owner and all of this is new to me. I understand in the end it has to be us who get it right with him but sometimes you need a bit of help with understanding exactly what you're teaching him to do/not to do. I did a good bit of training with him before his first puppy obedience course and still found when I got there that I was making glaring mistakes which they helped point out and we got a lot of stuff straight there on the basics but think I might need a bit more help now.

Just another idea, you can portion his food up into say, 10 portions and if he comes on recall, he gets his portion, if not it gets put aside and he doesn't get it that day.
So, if he comes 10 times on 10 recalls, he  gets all his food, but if he only comes twice, he gets just 2 portions, so after a few days he will be hungry and start to realise that he needs to recall :D

Some people use the dog's food literally for training rewards all the time.

I don't often recommend that one, but it can be very helpful at times when a dog is being a bit of a loon. He sounds lovely by the way, I do enjoy standard poodles, or poodles of any size; they are much underated!

Lindsay
x

hi, yes I agree, poodles are very underated dogs.  I do think they suffer from being seen as a bit prissy but he's not at all. He's chocolate coloured and has a plain clip and looks v like a water dog. A lot of people say they weren't keen on poodles til they met Alfie, he's full of fun, quite cheeky.
I think the food one is a great idea but I'll save it until all else fails.  We're going to try some new toys with him as he doesn't have any good squeaky ones at the moment and he always responded well to them.
Margaret x

Hi Lindsay,

Thanks for the ideas - knew you'd  be more on the ball than me ;)

My rescue working Beardie came to me at 6 months very destructive and with a great interest in cars!! I found that tiring his mind helped him a lot. playing search games and he also loves clicker training. He gets about an hours physical exercise a day plus a couple of sessions of mind exercise.

As his mind became more occupied he just gradually seemed to get less interested in traffic and the destructiveness stopped too but I do find that anything noisy will still get a look.

Anne

No don't be daft Teri, it's better to have several heads all together (as long as they aren't banging :P )

Lindsay
x

sorry I didn't answer part of your question....I'm not sure about the distance from the vans and grass cutters. I think it differs, sometimes v close to them sometimes he runs for a bit to get there. But it does occur to me that something else he's started doing more recently too is chasing squirrels. He's definitely going through some kind of chasing phase. He would always chase squirrels but at the moment if he sees one darting up a tree he often won't leave there for AGES and runs around the tree in circles sniffing out the squirrel and trying to hunt it down. I've never known him so obsessive about it. And when I call him at these times he just won't come back...completely deaf. It comes just after a time when we'd really began to get on top of his recall.

Also what I notice about the hunting squirrel thing is that even if his best friends are around he ignores them. One of his best mates since he was 3 months old is an English Setter and they always play like mad. But now if Alfie's sniffing out a squirrel he just might as well not be there. There's some kind of change going on ....will it be permanent I wonder? I hope not.

Hi again margaretmck. Now a few more details have come out of other things the problem is not chasing vans or any specific things, his obedience level is simply not what is needed for him & his lifestyle to keep him safe, he should recall from all those situations.
I would suggest you either go back to your original training class, tell them where you have problems and ask them to train you so he will recall if he goes after a van or anything else, its only an obedience problem (or lack of it).

Well, if nothing else your consistent :rolleyes:

info request, thanks for your contributions, it is nice when people take time to answer your problems. However, if it was a simple obedience problem that's something I think I'd understand at 19 months. He's been with us since 3 months old. But it's not. Alfie is obedient...not the greatest on earth but certainly far from the worst. Every so often he has a few irritating days where he seems to forget everything he's learned and reverts back to very early puppy behaviour. We accept that's how it is and go over the basics with him until he settles down again.  I'm glad to say it doesn't last and he usually comes back to normal after a few days of it. What I was getting really concerned about was trying to avoid the van chasing becoming an entrenched behaviour and understanding why he does it is usually the first stage of solving the problem.

Hi again Margaret,

Even my most mature and reliable dog would chase a squirrel if off lead ;)  We can try and desensitise them to chasing in general but I've found that while I can prevent or haven't had a problem with a variety of commonly met situations such as joggers, cyclists, traffic, children running around, other dogs, cats, horses and basically anything too distant for my liking, something randomly and rarely met such as squirrels and foxes is more difficult :rolleyes:  In those specific situations "Leave" screamed at the pitch of my voice usually works "if" I've spotted the object of their desire quickly enough :P

On the plus side mine won't go so far from my side and won't ever leave the park or go off into a field beside the bridle track without me so in normal every day situations they have a 100% recall and once in a blue moon with wildlife it is a bit shakey until they reach the extent of their personal comfort zone re. distance away from me.  They do respond to the "leave" command if on lead when we meet foxes (which is very common round my way) - they just get a bit hyped up but don't pull to get to them.

I'm sure Lindsay or Digger know how to perfect off-lead recall in those circumstances better than me though!  Regards, Teri :)

how about putting him on a lead???

I think putting him on a lead is not an answer at all. It would make him miserable and impossible to deal with at home without getting excercise he needs and should have. If the issue is about his basic training needing to be revisited then that's something we're prepared to work on but keeping a dog on a lead the whole time is just punishing him for us failing to train him properly which isn't his fault! I didn't get a dog to walk on a lead every day...what a miserable existence for him. Fine in the short-term until we sort out his training problems but not an option longer term.

Well its so good to see someone who understands the levels and enormity of the minuet by minuet punishments our dogs undergo whilst confined to a lead not to speak of the physiological dangers and damage done, the refs below put it proportion to some extent.

1.
If dogs are never allowed off-lead, this in itself can lead to further behavioural problems, including aggression, that are related to boredom, excess energy and frustration. (Davey 1981, Dushkin 1980, Evans 1988, Fox 1975, Lockwood 1995, Rogerson 1999). Barrier-frustration can also result in aggression (Campbell 1992) and lead restraint will create barrier- frustration in some dogs (Aloff 2002).
Jenniffer Dobson 2004

2.
dogs can become bored and frustrated if not allowed to exercise off lead, and this can lead to other problems such as aggression and destructive behaviour. This can, in turn, lead to re-homing of dogs, which may in itself lead to stressful situations for the dogs involved, especially if the dog is repeatedly rehomed due to its behavioural problems.
Duncan Davidson Mitcham Veterinary clinic

3.
More seriously, the "control" region of the neck, the area high up just under the back of the jaws, works because this is where the voice box or larynx is on the dog. The voice box is made of many small fine bones which can easily be broken by a sudden compression, as when a dog on a high set choke collar suddenly lunges against the collar. For this reason a prong collar is much to be preferred to a high set choke as the worse damage a prong collar can do if there is a powerful lunge is to puncture the skin, especially if the prong collar is designed so that the prongs do not lie over the trachea.
As an anatomist and a serious breeder I obtained thorough postmortem reports on many of my Borzois after they passed on and I was surprised to find that a number of them had healed fractures of the lateral bones of the larynx. This sort of injury narrows the opening into the trachea and, in extreme cases, could also produce respiratory insufficiency at heavy exercise.
Haltis and Easy Leaders have the potential to severely injure a dog's neck in the case of an out of control dog who bucks on the Halti
Bonnie Dalzell, MA 2003

4.
In 1991 I studied in an attempt to map frequency of back injuries in dogs. The study comprised 400 dogs and a team of chiropractors.
| Snip
There seems to be a connection between how the collar is handled and back problems. Pulling and jerking on the leash affect especially the neck and throat.
|snip
However, one of the clearest correlation's in the whole study was between cervical (neck) damages and 'jerk and pull'. 91% of the dogs who had neck injuries had also been exposed to jerking and pulling on the lead by the owner or had been allowed to pull hard on the leash for long periods of time.
Authors note: - A very low percentage of the dogs that had no cervical injuries had been exposed to jerking or allowed to pull for long periods.
Back problems in dogs 1991. Anderes Hallgren

5.
A successful obedience course suited to both owner and dog is one of the most critical point in the dogs obedience training program and its relationship with its human owner if the dog is to express itself as a free, off lead adolescent with a non-stressed owner. A dog should never loose the adolescence of its short life by being unable to safely come off lead and express a large % of natural reward drive behaviours.
| Snip
to punish dogs by keeping them on a lead, long lines or haltie head cages during exercise because they will run off and ignore the owner if released, even with the most boisterous strong willed dogs. The everyday reality of reliably trained dogs is that it lengthens the dog's life, as a free dog, which is the only real or greater reward any dog can experience or wants, longevity is unattainable in humans, for the dog this is now possible.
| Snip
without this freedom the dog will be unable to satisfy its primary needs for drive expression, consequently it will suffer sensory deprivation leading to learning difficulties and detrimental psychological consequences. With some dogs this sensory deprivation will cause aggression and a thousand other problems, including nuisance barking or tail chasing, to name but a few possibilities.
The reasons, in simple terms, is the loss of the dogs prized and most valued rewards. Offlead exercise is the greatest reward for any dog and it is made into a whole by thousands of individual, perpetual rewards which occur during a dogs exercise. When a dog walks over to sniff a blade of grass, the bottom of a tree, to walk or run to another small area to sniff the dog is experiencing immense, highly valued rewards which are an absolute necessity for its species if balanced mental health is to be retained
Denis Carthy 2004. Elementary Domestic Canine Psychology

The gifts of Google and cut & paste  ;)  

Whats wrong with useing Google to get info? I also use web ferret as well.

Absolutely nothing ;)  Merely an observation since you stated in your first reply here that

>duno how I would try and deal with it

Just a little confused about what the content has to do with anything but off-lead exercise - something which the dog in the main currently enjoys but perhaps you had a further point?

Regards, Teri

Teri! :D :D :D :D

Vicki!!!  ;)  waving :P

Sorry, I should have made it clear, I posted it because putting the dog on a lead has mentioned and not wanting to put the dog on a lead has been mentioned by the owner, so I posted some relevant info which is useful many readers and of no use to them, the poster themselves and other readers will now know if it is of use to them or not, I found them all very informative.

Below is another bit of info regarding choke chains to anyone who might find it relevant, especially new dog owners, which the poster is.

Of 16 Veterinary Practices contacted in the Norwich area in a preliminary study on the dangers of choke chains the researcher received 13 responses, seven confirmed recorded cases of injured dogs caused by choke chains.
*  Injured ocular vessels
    * Tracheal and oesophageal damage
    * Severely sprained necks
    * Cases of fainting
    * Transient foreleg paralysis
    * Recurrent laryngeal nerve paralysis
    * Hind leg ataxia
Radiographs showed misalignment of the cervical vertebrae and in some cases Horner's Syndrom
D Hawgood

Thank you! 

It may be helpful to post such specific info on a new thread under an appropriate heading so that those who will benefit from it most will actually see it - particularly the latest post relating to choke chains as their use is often mentioned and debates commenced from same,

Regards, Teri :)

i meant put him on the lead if a van appears! heavens above, why do people take everything so literally?

Unfortunately you often do have to explain yourself very thoroughly via internet, as otherwise advice can get confusing; I must admit, I also thought you meant keep the dog on lead (ie, all the time :P ).

Lindsay
x

Yes maybe things need to be put clearly, I thought thats what was meant as well.

Chasing vans, cars, lawn tractors, cats, squirrels, etc., is a problem.  None of these are an issue with my field setter, reason being she is never off lead w/out her e-collar.  Why take a chance?  When a car approaches I simply say "come" and she comes.  We move to the side of the road and I say "down" and she lies down.  As the car gets near, I say, "stay" and she stays.  When the car passes, we continue.  We're not in a town setting so we don't get a lot of road traffic.  Well, an e-collar I guess would look a bit silly maybe on a poodle, but maybe not the standard poodle.  Assuming an e-collar is without question, off the table, I have a plan B in dealing with the Vans.  Are you all ready for a huge laugh this morning!  Warning, put down the biscuits and tea for a second, you may spit out the tea and choke with laughter!  Here goes...you need a friend with a van to help or another favorite chaseable type vehicle.  They park the vehicle down the street.  You come down the sidewalk with the poodle on lead.  When you get with 5 feet of the vehicle, your friends now lays on the horn with a nice blast.  Hopefully it's a loud horn.  In succession with the horn...blast blast blast.  You at the same time pull back on the lead and say "WHOA" nice and loud.  Move back quickly about 10 feet now.  Walk away and come back 5 minutes later.  More of the same, 5 feet from the Van...Blast with the horn, and you say "WHOA" at the same time pulling back on the lead.  Continue this exercise for maybe 3 nights a week, for several weeks.  When you think your ready to try off lead, hopefully the next time the poodle wants to chase a van say "WHOA" and hopefully she will back up now thinking about the annoying horn.

Hope you get a good laugh!

Not a bad plan, but bearing in mind it's illegal to use a car horn when the vehicle's stationary, I can foresee potential problems. ;)

hi, yes sorry, that's what I thought you meant too. It's difficult on message boards sometimes to get the clear meaning. And let's face it some people do keep their dog on a lead if it's too daunting to teach them recall or they simply don't want their dog to play off lead. I see it quite a lot.

Problem with your suggestion is if I don't see the van quickly enough he's off before I get a chance to do that.  Putting him on the lead for a time when being naughty has worked v well for other bad behaviour and I use it when I have to. He loves to play so it's one punishment he really responds to.

I've had some great suggestions here and we've already started putting some of them into practice. His recall is already becoming better again so we're hopefully beginning to get to grips with it.
thanks for all the advice.
Margaret x