Hi, As some of you know I've recently purchased a crate for Toby, a springer x, as he was messing in the house overnight, in spite of having been clean for the last 3 months. He's taken to his crate really well, but today, upon leaving him the run of the house for just five minutes, (I was only in the bedroom) he messed again.  I now feel that I have to put him in his crate every time I'm not around him, otherwise he's going to mess.

I'm stumped as to why he's started messing again, but I'm even more surprised that he's started doing it through the day.  On Friday we happily left him to run the house as usual whilst we were at work, but obviously I'm now going to have to put him in his crate while we're at work, so he'll be spending 4 hours in there in the morning, and another 4 hours in the afternoon, then of course he'll have to go back in there at bedtime.

He has taken to it really well, and yesterday went in of his own accord and fell asleep, but I'm just wondering if this really is too long a period to be crating a dog?  Are they happy to spend that amount of time in there?

I should add that he's only left on his own during the day 3 days out of 7.

Thanks for any advice.  Sharon

I doubt any dog would be HAPPY spending 8 hours in a crate. I would be delving deeper into why he's messing inside instead of locking him up,which might make life easier for you but wont be helping your dog or the underlying reason of why he;s messing inside :(

I've managed to raise my dogs,springer spaniels over the past 20 years with out resorting to cages,which is probaly why i cant comprehend why anyone would want to use them. This breed of dog would be one of the last i would consider crating.

JMHO :)

Poor Keeley, she has only just been talked into having a crate!! - I hope you get it sorted one way the other Keeley :D

Yes, I agree with you. I personally think that crate can be a Godsend especially in a busy household. I use a crate for my Mal pup and the older bitch will often go and lie in there of her own accord because she loves it

Have you tried starting over with the house training ..going right back to beginning so he fully understands that pooing inside is really not such a good idea?

Hi Keely,

Does he mess when you are not at home? Does he howl/bark and destroy some items when you are not in? If so, then Toby could have separation anxiety, which is relatively common in springers as they are such a sensitive breed (they love their owners so much!) :-) .

Yeap, 8 hours is way too long to leave him in his crate. The best thing to do is find out if there is an underlying behavioural problem and tackle that.

Depending on the extent of the problem, then an outside run might be a good answer. Otherwise, if it's the odd accident once a day whilst you are out, then I guess it's no big deal just putting him somewhere where you can clean it up easily and leave it at that. (Make sure you don't reprimand him when you discover the poo - or at any point really - as this will make his anxiety worse - if that's what it is).

All the best,
Patty

I agree 8 hours is too long, even with a break in between. Is it possible for you to crate him for one part of the day, and then create a special area for him where he is controlled by a childgate? :)

Does he empty before you go out? I don't leave home until my dog has "been", we have a routine (or try to :P ).

What are you feeding him on, some dogs tend to make more mess depending on what diet they are on.

Lindsay
x

I leave 2 of my boys in crate from 10-12 then 1-3 and they seem alright. Relapses are ok , i can tell you that my dogs will be clean for 5 months and have that one freak accident. Unless its starting to frequently occur in the next couple of weeks then you should be worried about medical issues.

I guess hes a puppy? I would never give a puppy run of the house. I use baby gates and have them on every doorway so i can play around with there acess. The younger boys usually stay in the living room and kitchen , never in the hallways and bedrooms or upstairs. My oldest gets run of the house though along with my 2 year old.

I wonder if he was given the opportunity to relieve himself before you dissapeared into the bedroom, where presumably he couldn't attract your attention to the fact that he needed to go out.......

Hi everyone,

Thanks for you replies.  I'll try to answer all your questions!!

He's not a puppy, he's about 2 years old.  Unfortunately this is not just an 'accident' he's messing every night without fail, hence the idea to get the crate.  He's done this before, in the kitchen overnight and whenever we went out.  We put a child gate up to keep him in there, but he jumps over it.  At one point we thought it was separation anxiety, but then we recorded him and realised it wasn't, as it was a good 30 minutes after we'd gone out that he messed, and he wasn't anxious, whining or anything like that.  We soon realised that he was messing in the kitchen due to a habit, so we shut him in the living room instead, which gives him the run of the house up the stairs onto the top landing.  This was when he broke the habit of messing and was very good and clean for nearly 3 months.  Then this started again.  The only thing that changed was that we got rid of our sofa, as we sold it and are expecting a new one any day now.

I just don't know what else to do with him.  If I put him outside he jumps over the garden gate, and I've been advised never to chain him up, so that's out of the question.  It just seems that the crate is the only one place where I can be sure he won't mess.

He knows that outside is for pooing and weeing, and always does this when out on walks, which we praise him for as often as we can. 

This messing on the living room floor seems to be habit again, and everything we try to do to help him seems to back fire on us.

I'm completely at a loss as to what to do now.  I don't want to re-home him just to give someone else these problems.

Spotted a couple of other questions!!  He had the opportunity to relieve himself this morning, I took him in the garden, but he wasn't interested. 

Patty: he isn't destructive at all, he's very good that way, the only thing he chews are the hubby's socks!!  :D

He is being fed a dry diet of chicken and rice.

Have you tried letting him sleep in your bedroom? If so did he pee in there aswell? I would be very surprised if he did. :)

Are you 100% sure this isn't a health problem?

He has slept in the bedroom with us yes, and no, he didn't mess, but he didn't settle very well and was constantly waking us up.  Also, we're trying to start a family and I don't want him to get used to sleeping with us when that won't be allowed when I have a baby in the room with me.

He's had regular visits to the vet, and they can't find anything wrong with him.  Also, as he stopped for 3 months after cutting off his entrance to the kitchen (where he used to mess) we were pretty sure it was done out of 'habit'.

blimin dogs!!!!!
id take him back to the "begining " again.
take him out on the lead into a area of the garden where he last preformed,& wait till he does something,if he dosent take him back in.
take him out every few hours or so,controlled on a lead to see,try to estabilsh using a word. (mine preform on quick quicks & poohpoohs).you can do this "as he preforms",then praise let him off for a play or a sweetie.
at first leave a few poohs in the area where you want him to go,so its obvious that that is the area.
AND you will need for the time being to get up once or twice in the middle of the night to do this also.
use the cage at night,& in the day for shortish trips,i wonder if it might be worth sticking him back in the kitchen for the longer times-with cage door open,as the toliet habit may have been broken.

you of course may have tryed all this,but that is what id try in your situation.
you need to be ultra consistent,TOTALLY ignore ANY messing inside,& go totally overboard on any doings outside!!!

Hi Keely,

Perhaps he used to rest in the sofa and now that that is gone, he just won't settle and wonders about - especially since he couldn't settle when he was with you in the bedroom. If he won't settle and paces around, then this gets the bowels moving, which in turn will/might trigger the need to go to the toilet.  Was he allowed in the sofa? Did he sleep in the sofa? If so, then I would wait until you get a new sofa and then let him have that area again.

I agree that perhaps having him in your bedroom is not a good idea in the long-term. I guess also he has his crate, so night-times are ok, it's just the day that you are worried about.

Also, how about trying a dog flap? Just in case he really cannot hold it. Changing his feeding times may also help or just changing the amount you feed at each feeding time.

A webcam would be great to see his behaviour :-)

Let us know how you get on.

Cheers,
Patty

There is a theory that some behaviour that could be diagnosed as seperation anxiety is in fact more a case of the dog doing it because he can - the dog isn't stressed by being alone, but actually revels in the fact that he can perform these behaviours without being chastised........

You might get a better idea of *why* he's doing it if you can video his behaviour while he's alone....... A stressed dog will pace, maybe whine/bark, pick at toys etc.....  Often a dog with alleged SA will actually have a big 'grin' on his face as he rips the cushion to shreds - he's simply enjoying being able to do it!!!

Hi, thanks everyone.

Unfortunately I can't have a dog flap as our house is a mid terraced house and doesn't lead straight to the garden, there is a pathway for other people to use to get to the back of their houses, so if Toby could get out of the back door he could wander straight onto the road at the front :(

We have videod him once before, and he was very calm, not showing any signs of SA at all, no whining, no howling, not even barking.  in fact he just laid down, then 20 minutes later got up, walked around, did a poo and then laid down again!

I'd like to be able to to put him back in the kitchen again, to try to break the living room habit, but he just jumps over the baby gate, time after time!

I hope you don't think I'm 'waving away' your advice, I'm just answering everyone's questions as best I can!

It is so difficult.  My husband doesn't want me to crate him during the day, but like today I have to go out for a couple of hours, can't put him in the garden cos he escapes, so have to leave him in the house, and I just have a feeling he's going to mess again - my poor carpet :(  the smell yesterday was so strong it was unbelievable.  I'm supposed to be cleaning my carpet ready for the new sofa, but I daren't hire anything out to clean it just yet, incase he messes on it again :(

Thanks for everyone's idea and input

I was also thinking that the sofa may have something to do with it; if he slept on there and was comfy, maybe he just didn't "need" to go to the toilet.

Does he get a walk before you go to work or go out? That would help him settle, and would also hopefully mean he owuld toilet on it. Part of good toilet habits is to not allow the problem to actually occur if at all possible... :)

Lindsay
x

what reasons does your husband give for being against crating the dog while you are out?  Have you ever put him in the crate and videod how the dog behaves?

Sorry - that should read 'have you ever put the dog in the crate and videod how the dog behaves' (as opposed to your husband ;))

Hi, Yes, Toby does get a walk before we leave the house.  He's usually had a long run off his lead early in the morning, then will get another shorter walk on his lead before I go out.

My husband is against crating Toby through the day because he thinks it's too long for him to be spent in a crate, and I feel like I agree with him.

However, once again, yesterday I popped out for a couple of hours, he'd been on a walk, and when I returned he'd weed in the same spot.  We've tried all the different ways to contain the smell so he doesn't smell it and go in the same spot, but it's just not working :( 

I just don't know what to do.  I cannot have him messing on the floor every time our back is turned or we are out of the house, but on the other hand I dont want to condemn him to a life in the crate.  He's not helping himself unfortunately.  We've discussed re-homing him (which has been discussed before, but we've always decided to keep him and try to work through any problems), but I really don't want to get rid of him.  Although I had problems taking to him initially due to his messing etc, I do love him now.  But on the other hand I feel awful keeping him in a crate, and I don't think it's much a life for him.

I haven't tried videoing him in the crate yet, we've only had it for a few days, but he does seem to enjoy it I suppose, he doesn't whine, never has done, and goes in there quite happily with the suggestion of a treat.  And when I open the door to let him out I can even make him 'stay' for a few minutes, so he's not desperately eager to 'escape' which is good. But I still feel cruel keeping him locked up there every time I have to pop out for anything.

Edited to say: Lindsay, he didn't sleep on the sofas before, he used to sleep next to them though - push his body up against them!  But that was only when we were in the room with him.  More often than not, if we returned to the house he would be asleep upstairs, on the landing, but that unfortunately leads down the stairs into an open living room (open staircase), so we can't confine him upthere to stop him messing either :(  Thanks for your advice guys.

Keeley,
What concerns me is the fact you mentioned he is over 2 years old and this is still a problem.  You are going to have to try to establish a firm get tough stance with your Toby.  I would crate the dog when your not home.  I wouldn't be concerned about time in the crate so long as someone can stop by and let him out.  As soon as someone comes home, immediately outside with the dog until he does his business, then back in the crate when you leave.  When home, you're going to have to monitor the spot you mentioned and keep him away from the area if possible.  I'm guessing the favorite spot is carpeted, for once the odor gets in the padding underneath, it is difficult to eliminate the smell entirely.
Preferably confine most indoor time out of cage to a different area, one perhaps w/ linoleum floor, easier to clean if an accident occurs.  The favorite spot must now become of bad area for Toby.  When you see him going near the spot make a huge ruckus.  Speak sharply and firmly with loud anger.  Take a metal pot and a spoon and bang the bottom of if with a spoon to make some noise.  Sharp and loud NO's every time he wants to go near the spot.  He needs to learn you are extremely upset with this behavior and it will no longer be tolerated.  Get tough, don't hurt, but he must know it will no longer be tolerated.  If he goes in spot while your home in front of you, sob up the spot quickly with a cloth towel.  Drag him with one hand by the collar and in the other hand the towel.  Wave it in front of his face and scream BAD or NO INSIDE while you take him directly to the crate for a time out.  Throw the cloth in the crate with him and say there you go, now you live with it.  Slam the door of the crate and bang the top of the crate with you fist.  He must know your upset.
If you don't want to do this, then he goes outside on his chain or runner, throw the cloth and his face and say NO INSIDE PEE PEE, NO.  About 15 minutes after the episode, go to him and have a chat.  Give some kisses and speak calmly, pointing your finger at his face, no more pee pee inside, or this is going to happen every time.  And it must happen every time until he turns this corner.  You must exercise dominance until he gets the message it will no longer be tolerated.  Next time it happens, more of the same.  No more pampering, it ends.  You are the boss; you are in control, not him.  As time passes, you need to eventually open the door of the crate when your away, but the favorite spot still needs to be protected.
When you start leaving the crate open, preferable limit freedom to an area of the home away from the area.  If you have a basement, this would be good.  Move crate to basement but leave the door open to crate.  No freedom to rest of house though.  Home from work, right outside for business.  No more run of the house until he turns the corner and knows he can't get away with the behavior.  Good luck.

Sorry but I just wouldn't do this. At least not the shouting banging the crate bits or putting the dirty towel in the crate and 15 mins later the dog isn't going to remember what its done.

Anne

Remember Claybuster's techniques for other training problems also include e-collars - not designed to enforce the training bond........

No, the e-collar is not used for training, but reinforcement of commands learned prior.  You never train with an e-collar per se, for the dog must fully understand the command first before an e-collar is used.  My dog indeed gets very excited when she see her e-collar and readily offers her neck.  She can't wait to get thing on. Why is that you think...no bond?

Odd how your ideas contradict the usual crowd who market these things. ;)

If a dog is properly trained, no collar is needed. At all.
:)

Hi Jeangenie,
Was wondering if you ever had read an instruction booklet that comes with an e-collar?  Well, my booklet clearly specified the commands used must fully be understood PRIOR to any use of the collar.  Think about it for a second, how can you place an e-collar on a dog and expect the dog to instantaneously learn commands?  There is no magical subliminal messaging or ESP.  Proper training with the collar literally takes months and months.  Commands are learned first through typically methods, food rewards and/or a combination with praise.  PLEASE, anyone NEVER ever just place an e-collar on a dog without reading the manual first.  You will do more damage than good and the collar will become something to be feared.

>PLEASE, anyone NEVER ever just place an e-collar on a dog without reading the manual first.

No fear of that, claybuster. :) I will never place one on my dogs at all. Ever. Full stop. :)

Sounds to me like a recipe for creating more problem behaviours than the one you are trying to cure :rolleyes:

Thanks for the laugh claybuster.  You've got my day off to a good start!! :D :D :D

Claybuster, are you having a laugh? I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your post.

Please note, I did not say exercise some dominance and crack him one on his bum over the spot nor grab him by the neck and shove his nose in the spot.  My point is toughen up a bit, show some backbone and let him no the behavior is unacceptable.  You can either toughen up a bit and take control of the situation or allow the dog to control you and stink up your house.  What I really think it is already too late; the dog is over two years old and has the control over the situation.  My attempt is more or less a last ditch effort to turn things around right now, or just let him do whatever he wants and wee-wee wherever he wants.

I appreciate you trying to help me claybuster, but I have to say that in actual fact the crate has done the trick, he's not weeing all over the house any more.  And also, before this problem came to light, he was a very clean dog, and had been for over 3 months.

He was a rescue dog too, and we've only had him 8 months. He's still adjusting.

LOL - Sorry, but I love that image of OH in crate with videocamera - like something off those shark programmes!

Oh yes - OH in the crate. with video camera whilst I bang on the floor with a tin and scream at him, waving dirty cloth in front of his face :D :D :D

Just another fun-packed morning at Manic Mansions :D :D :D

Margot

Hi everyone,

As this has been brought up again I may as well give you all an update.

Toby's taken to his crate absolutely perfectly.  I'm stunned actually!  Should have listened to you all a long time ago :rolleyes: :D  He wanders in and out of his crate of his own free will, laying in there to chew his bones - seems to love it.

He's not messed inside the house since getting the crate, although as he only used to mess when we were out he's obviously not had that opportunity.  But the upshot is: no more mess, happy Toby, happy mummy and daddy!! :)

Just need to find somewhere to put the damn thing when our new sofa arrives!!  At the minute it's happily set up in the living room, but there's no chance of that when we get our new sofas - our house is too small!

Just need to find somewhere to put the damn thing when our new sofa arrives!!  At the minute it's happily set up in the living room, but there's no chance of that when we get our new sofas - our house is too small!

Priorities keeley, priorities!!  Cancel the new sofa and sit on the top of the crate!! :)

LOL!  If I thought it would take my weight then I would - but I very much doubt it!!!  :D :D

We have Gabi's crate under the stairs in the hall. They are a god send, don't know how I ever coped without one, years ago. A boon on holidays and days out. We  have another crate that lives in the car. Far too big and heavy to lift in and out of the house every time. Gabi is happy to go anywhere provided she has her den. 

We got one for our Westie, Alfie, as soon as we got him from the breeder. The first couple of nights he was very unhappy but then he settled after that. We used it to take him from Poole to Edinburgh and back again. We didn't want to keep him in his carry case for such a long journey. He was a bit unhappy at first when we went for a few few short test drives but by the time we went to Edinburgh he settled very well. We could hear him in the back playing with his toys. For most of the journey he was sound alsleep in his bed. Rather than keep carrying the crate from house to car we splashed out on a car specific design. This is better shaped for the boot and makes more efficient use of the space and leaves room for our stuff. We got a good deal from here - http://www.ideas-4-pets.com/index.php?cPath=39&osCsid=c21833eaa97178f296ec64f4ea186a67

We keep the new crate in the car all the time and he has a comfy bed in it. He loves being in the car. Now when we take him for a walk he stops at the car expecting to get in. He has never poo'd, pee'd or been sick in the car. I also feel the crate is a very safe way for him to travel. The soft bed gives him a lot of protection and in the event of an accident there will not be 4kg of Westie puppy flying through the air.

I'm really glad he's settled in so well now, crates can be a godsend if they are used correctly.

For the benefit of anyone reading this thread, it's wise to remember that it's always good to do healthchecks on dogs also if there is chronic messing problems - it can be due to all sorts of reasons, and this is another reason why heavy handed and confusing tactics should be avoided by wise dog owners ;)

Possible reasons (bearing in mind some may relate to only one type of mess ):

medical conditions, age related problems, environmental change, incomplete house training, faulty learning, breed type, inadequate management, substrate preference, submission, over excitement, fear, attention seeking/insecurity, marking, anxiety etc.

Medical problems can be: urinary tract disease, congenital and anatomical malformation, endocrine disorders, neurological abnormalities, bacterial and viral conditions, obstructions, food allergies, age related problems, activity levels and changes in gastro intestinal mobility. If there are no medical reasons, refer to a reputable and experienced behaviourist.

Lindsay
x

"Toby's taken to his crate absolutely perfectly.  I'm stunned actually!"

Great news!  I was concerned too much time in the crate for correction and confinement only may lead to not liking the crate.  My Zoe loves her crate too!  The door is always open, and chances are if I can't find her around the house, she's lounging in her crate.  It is her spot, home away from home.  We play a little game with the crate, which I refer to, as her "house".  I'll be sitting on the sofa, then suddenly pat my chest, come!  She comes flying out the crate and jumps up on me on the sofa (downstairs basement sofa, mommy doesn't like her on the upstairs living room sofa).  Some kisses and scratch the belly for 10 seconds then HOUSE HOUSE HOUSE.  She then bolts into her crate.  Pat the chest and comes flying out of the crate, jumps for some more kisses and some petting, scratch behind the ears this time, then HOUSE HOUSE HOUSE!  Again jumps off and a beeline into the crate.  We'll do this 1/2 dozen in succession just playing.
Many times as soon as we come after a walk and the leash is comes off, she runs into her crate as if she's checking on her house.  The only time she's in the crate with door shut is in the morning after mom wakes up.  If she doesn't want to go out for morning wee-wee, mommy will crate her and shut close the door.  When I wake up in the morning, my duty to get the dog outside for her morning wee.  See, I'm usually last to bed, so I get her out for a quick wee right before bedtime, which could be 1 or 2:00am.  She really doesn't need to go out first thing in the morning, but mom is extra careful.  Yesterday morning Zoey was caught on the upstairs sofa, mommy wasn't happy.  Zoe has run of the house, but not the bedrooms.  Only our Yorkie is allowed in the bedrooms.  Casey the Yorkie doesn't like the bed though; his nook is in the corner with favorite blanket.  Some Casey pics now in the profile!

I don't know where to begin, in fact I'm a bit speechless at this:

"The favorite spot must now become of bad area for Toby. etc etc"

Let's look at this in order...

"When you see him going near the spot make a huge ruckus.  Speak sharply and firmly with loud anger.  Take a metal pot and a spoon and bang the bottom of if with a spoon to make some noise.  Sharp and loud NO's every time he wants to go near the spot."

Er, why?  The dog hasn't done anything wrong yet.  Dogs learn by consequences.  All you are teaching him with this punishment is not to walk on the 'dangerous spot', because that's the behaviour he was demonstrating just before you punished him - you are NOT teaching him not to wee there. 

"He needs to learn you are extremely upset with this behavior and it will no longer be tolerated."

Like I just said - what behaviour is that though?  The behaviour of walking near the spot, not of actually toileting in the wrong place. 

"If he goes in spot while your home in front of you, sob up the spot quickly with a cloth towel."

Well this is possibly the only useful line in this whole diatribe...

"Drag him with one hand by the collar and in the other hand the towel.  Wave it in front of his face and scream BAD or NO INSIDE while you take him directly to the crate for a time out.  Throw the cloth in the crate with him and say there you go, now you live with it.  Slam the door of the crate and bang the top of the crate with you fist."

Ok, problems with this include:  By the time you've sopped up the wee 'with a cloth towel', the dog will not associate the weeing with the punishment.  For a punishment to be effective it must happen within ONE to THREE seconds of the undesired behaviour....

It must also happen EVERY single time the behaviour happens, whether you're there or not, whether it's night or day, and ALWAYS within ONE to THREE seconds.  If you can't adhere to that, then punishment is probably not a good way to fix a situation.

And lastly, there are other contingencies on this punishment - for example - when you are not there to punish him like this, he will not be punished for weeing inside.  What will the dog learn?  Yes, that it is safe to wee when you are out and not safe to wee when you are there.  This is how a lot of people end up with problems like - their dog won't wee in front of them.  There's no right or wrong for dogs with punishment, only safe or dangerous.

"If you don't want to do this, then he goes outside on his chain or runner, throw the cloth and his face and say NO INSIDE PEE PEE, NO. 

I think a lot of dogs would love having a wee stained cloth chucked at them.  It would be a reward for my dog. 

"About 15 minutes after the episode, go to him and have a chat.  Give some kisses."

And this will be construed by the dog not as 'a chat' but as a REWARD.  And what are you rewarding him for???  He's been outside on a chain for 15 minutes - he might have just scratched his head or fallen off a step or done any number of other things - you speaking to him nicely is rewarding the behaviour immediately preceding this.  It will have no effect on his toilet training whatsoever. 

"speak calmly, pointing your finger at his face, no more pee pee inside, or this is going to happen every time"

The dog will hear 'blah blah shebab shebab jibber jabber', so personally I wouldn't bother.

Wonderful to pick apart and criticize everything mentioned, but no suggestions on what you would to correct the situation?  Just give him some treaties and forget the problem and maybe the dog will figure it out his own...hmmm.

1-2-3,
Going near the spot would infer going near the spot to soil.  Yes, make a ruckus.  The cloth used to clean blot the spot will contain the smell, so yes there will be association.  I read once in a book, place a handful of small coins (we have the 1 cent penny) and put them in a 2-liter soda bottle.  Shake the bottle vigorously near the infraction while holding your dog at the spot.  Similar effect but not as drastic to banging a metal pot (also much easier for we only have two hands!  Another method with the soiled cloth is to put the dog in a different room other than same area and confine the dog.  The idea being no matter what room, this is bad, thus confinement and the alone time.
This is more of a puppy method, but not keen on the idea because your just now moving smells around the house, therefore I like the crate or outside with the cloth.  Put something under the cloth if one tries this so the wee-wee won't penetrate through to the floor like several sheet of newspaper or old magazine.  We speak to our dogs sometimes, even though we know they're not going college, you're probably guilty too!  Nothing  wrong w/ some love, affection, and some kind words after some correction.  You seem to view my post as a technical reference manual and read too deep, waiting to attack...but offer no ideas of your own...becoming..."All sizzle and no steak".

Claybuster, the way you train may help people to have a repressed dog who will possibly be too scared to toilet in front of it's owner. That can lead to much worse problems.  Have you read my post re. medical and behavioural conditions? How are you sure you are not advising someone whose dog may have a medical or behavioural problem? Answer is, you can never be sure, so it's best to use methods that are fair to dog and owner :).

I especially dislike the nagging some time after the event - this is not good training, sorry :(

Lindsay
x

After reading claybusters posts......i'm sure she's only trying to wind people up :-( your not serious are you claybuster? :-(

Cute little emotional icons justlou added in there, how lovely.

Hi Lindsay,
I think the dog is a bit young be thinking medical, but in a rare instance maybe?  My Cody (RIP) developed incontinence later on in life at about age 77.  Poor guy, I recall months and months of carrying him in out to wee for his hip were shot as well.  Many times I had picked him and noticed a wee spot directly underneath were he way lying.  I knew it was beyond his control.  Therefore, I would think your more on track with behavior issues.  I agree too, nagging after is no good, unless you catch the dog in the act, which implies going near the spot wee, not just walking past.  We can tell, a lift of the leg or a squat down. So what happens when you catch the dog in the act?  Take no action and give a treat or corrective measures?  Now Onetwothree might say, but how do you know the dog is not lifting his leg near the spot to simply scratch or squatting to scratch the rear end...
I'm sorry, but I don't give in and give a treatie with a pat on the head.  I will make some noise and let my dog know I disapprove.  If its too harsh for some; just a matter of opinion.  They can feel free to criticize, ridicule and pick apart to their hearts content.  I know people that would take by a dog neck, shove their nose in poop that happened in the house until the nostrils are clogged with the poop.  A bit extreme in my book...I would rather just make a ruckus.  But, regardless of the other persons methods, you won't hear me criticizing, ridiculing, etc., (I try to act my age, not my shoe size).

How are you sure you are not advising someone whose dog may have a medical or behavioural problem?

I would caution anyone to take anything said on an Internet based public forum with a "grain of salt".  You will know, whether it be in your heart or just a gut feeling when you need to seek council from a "professional".  It is very easy for anyone to "throw in their 2 cents" on issues pertaining to training, health, nutrition, etc.  Some have owned dogs for 2 weeks and are self-proclaimed experts.  People like myself have had dogs well over 20 years, but that doesn't mean there is a right way or a wrong way, for many issues and problems have a thousand approaches and multiple solutions.

I've just come back from seeing a 12 week old Springer pup whose been treated for a UTI, and I can remember seeing a Labrador retreiver breeder whose pup had to be treated for a UTI even before being weaned, so age doesn't really come into it.........

Hi Claybuster,

I've tried reading this entire thread through but TBH it's got so much off track relative to the OP's question I've given up ;)  So, FWIW, I only want to add that clearly the cultural differences in our respective home lands means that your methods -v- those sanctioned here are always going to be at odds if the back and forth posts so far are anything to go by.

Many of us on here own dogs in breeds which are particularly high drive therefore high maintenance so getting not just the training right but also the method of training right is crucial.  In my own sensitive but high drive breed, were I to employ many of the methods you recommend I'd either break the dog's spirit and make it fearful and timid or break it's trust in humans forever resulting in it being a loose cannon.  I'm not an expert in training nor do I believe every dog should be trained the same in every situation.  You're right in saying that there are many different solutions but in the UK - and this is a UK board - it is thankfully largely accepted that patience and reward based training achieve results.  They may not be the quick fix that is preferred by others but it's a routine and regime that works, even with the most difficult of breeds and along with many others I'm glad that harsh or aggressive training methods, both physical and verbal, are by and large a thing of the past.

Regards, Teri :)