My lovely Poppy has suddenly developed really bad behaviour while walking. She pulls me everywhere it's an absolute nightmare, it seems to have got really bad over the last week and no matter what we try (clicker training, harness, short lead etc) it doesn't seemed to be working. This has now been happening for about 3 weeks -  it's so bad I'm not enjoying taking her out for walks anymore. Is it me am I doing something wrong?

She's a 16 month labrador and isn't a large dog, only 25 kg, but boy is she strong when she pulls. She's always been an excitable dog but this behavious has got to stop.

By the way if she's off the lead, she's absolutely fantastic walks beside you, except when she sees other people and then always runs to meet them -  not the best option when she will even run across the road to get to them.

Can anyone please help me.
Thanks
Alexis

JJ my 22 month old golden is slightly the same way. He gets really excited but its just until we get to the dog park and then hes just such a good boy , excellent with recall. Do you bring him to run off leash at dog parks? I find that after an hour or 2 of running in the morning they walk so excellent all day because they've already blown out energy.

Are you giving her slack or strict about her being beside you?

How did you teach the dog to walk on a loose lead in the first place?

Me? I wait for them to walk right to the end of the leash and i start walking backwards for them to catch up. They all really just understood the 'easy' command so slight pressure on the collar will slow them down a pace.

Sounds like a good idea, I'll try this one and see what happens, though the harness seems to be having some impact as well  (finally)
As for how we taught her to be good on the lead in the first place, she simply was - didn't involve much teaching -  though we went to puppy classes when we first got her which may have helped, was done through clicker training-  but this seems not to work.

This is fairly easy to correct, however my method won't be everyone's cup of tea.  You need a choke collar and a leash say 10 feet.  Form several large loops in the leash so you shorten it to about 6 foot.  Have your hand holding the end of the leash as normal, and with the same hand, hold on to the loops.  When walking the dog and your dog starts to pull, drop the loops do a 180 turn and start walking in the opposite direction.  The choker collar will snap the head back.  NO, it won't injury your dog, but it will be uncomfortable.  Constantly repeating this procedure, your dog will soon get the idea better stay close and be attentive to where my owner is, growing tired of the head being jerked back.  Make the procedure a daily routine and within a short time span your dog will get the idea and the proper way to behave on a leash.  I learned this method from watching videotape sold by a professional dog trainer.  Like I said, it may not be everyone's fancy, however it is a proven technique and will resolve the issue.  The important things to remember is don't just do it once or twice, make it routine until the dog fully understands.  To some, choker collar training is inhumane, however, its the person behind the collar is the issue.  Snapping a choker intentionally hard like a manic is wrong, yet simply walking the other way so the leash and collar do the work is not going to harm your dog.

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

The OP's dog has only demonstrated this very common problem in the last 3 weeks and hopefully will be able to resolve it without the use of a "choke collar" :(    Any method which requires rough and/or harsh treatment is not training a dog - merely bullying it into doing things "our" way.  That aside, dogs necks can easily be injured by the use as you describe of what should be a "check" chain but as you so rightly describe it, is more often used as a "choke".  

There are alternatives to *jerking the head back* in order to have a dog walk happily and comfortably by it's owner - quick fixes are rarely the way to go and as with any "training tool", inappropriate use or when employed by inexperienced owners are cruel and potentially dangerous.

Incidentally, I did at one time use a similar method myself - but I'm happy to say I've "evolved" since then ;)

Regards, Teri

"...and as with any "training tool", inappropriate use or when employed by inexperienced owners are cruel and potentially dangerous."

I agree.  It's not the gun that kills but the man behind.  Kinda like a choker collar, it is the idiot behind the collar that causes the problem and gives them a bad rap.  I feel their proper use in training is not harmful and can be very useful in training.  Same theory can be applied to e-collars as well, a great device that will solve many issues IF used properly.  My field setter has been e-collar trained since about 4 months old.  When she sees her e-collar, tail starts wagging, she runs up to me, readily offers her neck for the collar.
Some simply view them as torture devices.  My dog would disagree; to her the collar represents freedom. Charlie

You're in the US or Canada aren't you, Charlie?

Jeangenie,
Why do you ask, does it matter?  You don't discriminate now do you?
If I told I used to live in Norwich, I wouldn't be a liar.  If I also told you I live near the Thames River, which would be true as well.  However your are instinct was correct, for the Thames River runs up from the Long Island Sound into Norwich, Connecticut.  Charlie.

The reason I asked (I suspected your location because of your phraseology! ;)) is because it explains why you would advocate a device which has been banned by many organisations in the UK (including all police forces), and the vast majority of people consider to be repugnant. However, we've noticed that many posters from the North American continent consider harsher training methods and tools than we would tolerate to be acceptable. It's a cultural difference, I suppose (like having syrup and cream on bacon!).
:)

Seeing as this behaviour has only just started, and she's find without a lead, the first thing I'd do is get a vet to check her over for any injury - particularly to the neck - the potential for an injury to exist here would instantly rule out using a choke collar, as would any kind of respect for the health of the animal and your relationship with it......
A 1992 paper published in Sweden by Anders Hallgren examined 400 dogs from various training clubs. They found 63% of them had spinal problems and of those, 65% had problematic behaviour." Specifically aggression. Hilliard goes on to say that the study specifically named choke collars as being dangerous. She also brings up a study by veterinarian William Ingram who, after examining dogs with cervical (neck) anomalies, stated that 91% (of these dogs) had been exposed to harsh jerks on the leash, or they had a long history of pulling or straining at the end of a lead.

Claybuster , unless you have a really REALLY stubborn dog then you don't even need the choke (Yes this is coming from MANNY). My method is the EXACT same thing you just mentioned and adding the choke doesnt help unless your just a little weak man and can't hold the leash tight enough for it to tighten and for your dog to realize your 10 feet behind him.  Claybuster i'm ashamed you even brought up the choke when we know a PRONG is much more safe , but i am not recommending you use either.

And charlie , you are going to have to jerk the choke PRETTY hard for the dog to even feel a thing , most dogs that are determined draggers will choke themselves on a BUCKLE collar let alone choke. Prongs quick second jab gives it the pinching sensation and instant correction. Chokes are useless.

A user not correctly using an E collar cannot in any way hurt the dog. I don't know what kind you are looking at but the kinds i've seen don't even give a shock that could make a human blink. I could put this on and shock my dog 100 times and he would feel no pain so i don't see how it could be used incorectly.

MannyG,
The method I described is not mine; it comes from a professional trainer recommending the technique and the choker.  It has nothing to do with size, stature, or physical strength.  It is merely following the technique of a trainer.  I believe the trainer was called David Dykeman and the video was training the celebrities' pets or something (going back 20 years).

Not sure what kind of e-collars you have seen or tested, but I assure you, my Tri-Tronics Sport 65 (retails for around $350.00), cranked up to level number 5 will pretty much lift your dog off it's feet.  I typically use levels 1-2, and we're only on the collar when hunting.

"Claybuster i'm ashamed you even brought up the choke when we know a PRONG is much more safe..." mannyG

I thought they were for Great Danes only?

" I don't know what kind you are looking at but the kinds i've seen don't even give a shock that could make a human blink. I could put this on and shock my dog 100 times and he would feel no pain so i don't see how it could be used incorectly." mannyG

If your serious about an e-collar, I would stay away Woolworths.

This  behaviour is new and warrants a bit of an investigation before people suggest methods that are, to say the least, suspect. I used to use chokers to  my shame, but at the end of the day, you cannot get away without hurting the dog, it's as simple as that. Anyone who tells you otherwise is not telling the truth!

Supposing the dog has a physical problem, for instance an injured back or pulled muscle that could be causing the problem? this is not always apparent and the only sign maybe a change in normal behaviour. Let's give the dog a chance for goodness' sake!

I'd suggest a vet visit and one to an animal chiropractor for starters.

Lindsay
x

Lecy i forgot to ask.. is she pulling in fear? Max my golden puppy will drag when thers alot of traffic because hes scared panicy.

hi there,
the best method i have found for stopping pulling is when they pull, to simply stand still. i wait until the lead is loose and i can carry on walking. if the dog pulls again, i can either stnad still as before, or walk ing a different direction. i alternate between stopping and waiting and turning a different way. i find the dog gets bored o standing still/not going anywhere fast and it gets much easier to go for a walk.
thats just how i do it

That is exactly the method i am using Utonagan. :D I am finding it really good and it WORKS!!! ;-) I CANNOT let my pup pull AT ALL, otherwise i would be on the groud when he is full size!! This method IS working!! No choke chains used here! ;-)

:)

Also, it's useful to get a stop pull harness (I used one made by Hi Craft or Kumfi) as this helps a lot with getting from A to B when there is no time ot actually train.

Lindsay
x

Why they even put a level 5 shock on the collar is my question?

Just below level 1 there is a setting 1/2 for ultra sensitive dogs which I can't feel the slightest tingle.  I guess the answer to your question would be each dog differs in his or her own levels of sensitivity.  There is also a momentary impulse button and constant impulse button.  The constant button has an auto time-out feature after 5 seconds, a little humane feature they put in there incase you accidentally sit on your transmitter or something.  I get excellent results with levels 1 or 2 momentary hit and doesn't make her yelp.  Level 3 momentary may cause a yelp especially on a fresh battery charge.  Folks, don't get me wrong...I don't advocate the use of these unless they're on an active sporting dog working in the field.
My recall is 100% guaranteed when needed.  Many a dog has been abandoned in the woods, lost, killed, etc., due to poor recall.  You think a clicker gizmo will keep your dog from bolting after a deer...lol...best of luck.  Sure people have been hunting for 100's of years and e-collar have only been around about 30.  But, like I said, a lot less lost, abandoned, stolen, killed, etc., dogs since the arrival of e-collars.  Yes, I've started an afternoon of hunting and realized I forgot to charge the battery and no mishaps, but I still like the insurance of the collar.  My apologies for getting off track of the thread topic.

I can't remember how she trained it, but a regular poster on here - Lyndsay, lives in the New Forest (which is not near the 'River Thames' - we don't call it the 'Thames river' ;) - it's these subtle differences that often give a poster away......).  She often comes across deer when walking her dog, and can succesfulyl  call her BSD away from a deer.  I have a Springer Spaniel who will come off the rabbits we regularly come across out walking, oh - and I forgot the Muntjac deer we came across last weekend - all done with love and kindness and a bond with the dog...... And a lot cheaper than e-collars - Woolworths don't sell them around here......

>I don't advocate the use of these unless they're on an active sporting dog working in the field.

All the working gundog owners I know would never use one of these collars, not only because they get just as good (if not better) results without one, but also because if they want to take their dogs' activities to competition level, they wouldn't be allowed to use them. Working gundogs work 'naked' in the UK.

Lecy, I think I'm probably right in thinking you want to train your dog without the use of one of THOSE collars.

Have you seen the book "What Do I Do ... when my Dog Pulls" by Turid Rugaas?  It's along the lines of what Utonagan and Mackleback were suggesting.  It takes time and effort, of course but the method works.

a friend of mine started taking her SBT pup to training classes he also pulls on his lead and she has been taught that when he pulls she has to change direction and start walking the other way, and every time he does this she just simply turns around and starts walking back in the direction she came from and in a week he has stopped pulling and walks contently by her side.
You dont need to be rough you just need to stop turn around and start walking.

Doesn't surprise me organizations have banned their use, some probably in the states as well.  Your government has not banned their sale though, have they?  One could argue their use is more in line with safety and welfare concerns in the field rather than only seeing the negatives of the village idiot sadist "shocking" their dog in a harmful manner.  Put a ban on those people.  I'm sure the same organizations advocating a ban are the same advocating a ban on hunting in general.  I'm guessing those hunters concerned about their dogs' safety and welfare do use e-collars in the field in the UK.  Bans aren't necessarily for the common good.  Look what happened when your government banned handguns...your crime rate has increased.  Well, just a difference of opinion I guess.

I invite you all to see some photos of my Zoey.  I had placed URL link to a photo gallery in my profile. Charlie

>I'm guessing those hunters concerned about their dogs' safety and welfare do use e-collars in the field in the UK.

No, they don't. A lot of my friends work their gundogs in the field (we don't call in 'hunting' - that's when hounds follow a trail) and they've never seen anyone use an e-collar - or any collar at all in fact. Far too dangerous in undergrowth.
:)

A lot of my friends work their gundogs in the field (we don't call in 'hunting' - that's when hounds follow a trail) and they've never seen anyone use an e-collar - or any collar at all in fact.

Oh...the hound group.  A friend of mine in Pennsylvania runs beagles and he does not believe in use of leashes or e-collars.  The hound group (beagles anyway) operates a bit different than birddogs.  The beagles goal is to track and follow scent and push the game (rabbit) back towards their owner.  You as the hunter pretty much can remain in the locale, because you know your dogs are working to come back!  Yes, the run through some pretty thick underbrush and e-collars could be a hindrance.  I know one that states, if they don't have blood stain tails, you ain't working 'em hard enough!  That is how thick the brush can get, and will cause bleeding.  What I find hard to believe, that you, one young lady in the UK, sound like you aim to speak for an entire group of sportsmen in the UK, and make a claim that absolutely no sportsmen use e-collars, even with the birddogs.  I'm sorry, but I find that a tough pill to swallow and think your just stating what you would hope to be true, nobody use e-collars.  I have my doubts.

Claybuster, isn't this thread about a 16 month Lab who pulls on the lead?

No, you misread what I said. I said that nobody I know who works their gundogs (and I live in a rural area where there's a lot of coarse shooting and several clubs) uses e-collars - and they don't know anyone who does either. I do know (from speaking to them, and also reading articles in the specialist press) that when visiting enthusiasts meet in the US they are astonished at the use of the item, and say it actually ruins a good dog ... By the way, I no more speak for the entire section of the community than you do. :) I'm sure there are good trainers 'over there' who have no use for them.

But this is a digression from the thread, and of absolutely no help to the poster, so let's get back to trying to solve the actual problem, shall we?
:)

"Bans aren't necessarily for the common good.  Look what happened when your government banned handguns...your crime rate has increased.  Well, just a difference of opinion I guess."

Banned handguns ?

They've never been legal in the UK, hence we have 70 shooting deaths a *year* countrywide as opposed to that many per *month* in some U.S. cities.

Yes it's the person that pulls the trigger, but it's society that puts the gun into childrens hands.

They've never been legal in the UK...

DylansDad, I agree w/ Jeangenie ;-) and lillith, we have fallen way off the already beaten path here, but here is a link to BBC news archives to shed some further insight: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1440764.stm

I believe that the law regarding hand guns in the UK is a little complex - it was ok to own one as a decorative item but the minute you put in amunition OR used it (loaded or not) in a crime related incident then it did become illegal.  (with me ?)

The ban that has been discussed here banned the ownership of all guns and replicas even for decorative purposes - unless of course it is of a certain age then it is classed as millitaria and therefore an antique !

I could be wrong, but that is how I have read the 'gun law' - Oh and Claybuster, I wouldn't really take much notice of the BBC, they, like most media, are pretty much hounds who will over play any story and make things out to be worse than they are - a bit like most reporters the world over - media = take the info with a pinch of salt :)

Utanogan

Echo that.  All you have to do usually is stop and not move until the dog comes back to you.  It takes time and patience  but even the most stubborn dog will get the idea in the end.  With the really stubborn ones I would turn in my tracks every time they pull and take them in the oposite direction.  Its not as difficult as it sounds but in doing this never, never jerk the collar upward always pull the lead down toward the ground when you change direction.  When you are getting some good behaviour you can reward and treat your dog saying nice walk or something that you will use every time.  It is all to do with forming good habits with your dog.  I agree wholheartedly with what you are saying Utanogan.

thanks mackleback and echo! glad you're having success also! i have found it works a treat (",)

My Finn is a 6 month old Lab and I've been having the same problem with him - when I take him to the woods for a walk, he's pulling like a mad thing; when I take him around the block, he's much better.  After speaking to a trainer, they've told me it's because he associates the route we take as always leading to the fun, off the lead runs through the woods and he's just excited about getting there.  They've suggested I take different routes to get to the same place, which is a bit of a pain, but seems to be working.  I'm also using the 'stop when pulled' routine, which is also making things a bit easier.

I do the same with Zanta when she pulls stop but I make her sit and get her attention with a treat and then walk again and just keep repeating until she gets the message,she also likes to grab the lead and have a game with it so I have to be particularly firm with her and making her sit seems to work a treat,got the tip out of one of the berner books I bought,section by Ian Dunbar.BRILLIANT. :-)

There seems to be a lot of advice as to what not to do but the posters tried everything looking at her first post and it has not worked. If it were my dog, which it is not, I would try the choke chain, I have never used one (my dogs quiet) and I would want to find from someone who has not from those who have not.

I also want to detatch myself from comments regarding peoples race and nationality.

>I also want to detatch myself from comments regarding peoples race and nationality.

Strange comment

But stranger still ..............

>If it were my dog, which it is not, I would try the choke chain, I have never used one

Why would you recommend something you've never tried on a dog you've never assessed to a poster whose abilities you don't know? 

Humour me - perhaps I'm just having an off day

Info request said: <<< ... has tried everything>>>

With respect to the OP,  this is not the case.
A dog who suddenly starts pulling needs a health check. I haven't looked back over all this thread to refresh my memory, but I believe this wasn't done, certainly at first.
Other things were tried for 3 weeks, presumably several things - so again, training lacked consistency etc and also, possibly a trainer helping would have made a big difference.
As i said, no disrespect to the OP, but ...

Lindsay

Have just re-read original post,the poster doesnt mention using any of the tactics some of us have posted,ie;standing still when dog pulls or as I mentioned I am finding works for my puppy,making her sit and getting her attention by a treat and then carrying on until she starts pulling again then we repeat the process until she gets the message.Dont recall seeing anything in the posts about race and nationality.Unless I missed something.

Hi Lecy I forgot something before and I just checked out, someone I know had problems with a recall they tried a couple of people to get it righ and eventualy got someone from Barkbusters, they said they were very good and their dog is running free as a result, I know it is a pulling problem you have but maybe look into those.
A sussex councill recently held a  "Responsible Dog Ownership Day" and they had a Barkbusters dog psycholgist there so they seem to be ok if councills are useing them.

>A sussex councill recently held a  "Responsible Dog Ownership Day" and they had a Barkbusters dog psycholgist there so they seem to be ok if councills are useing them

It takes absolutely no previous canine experience nor even pet dog ownership, all of 6 weeks "course work" and a hefty financial investment to "train" them to the level of excellence for which members of that franchise are renowned ..................

...................... nice little earner though :rolleyes:

Just because a 'Barkbusters' representative was present, doesn't mean the council endorse them, or even know anything about their methods or the psychology behind them (very little from what I understand!)

>You're in the US or Canada aren't you, Charlie?<

This is all I can find, 1max, and it doesn't seem offensive to me!

Hi Lillith,didnt think I missed anything about race or nationality,just people in America or Canada using different methods for training gundogs,thanks for that definitley know I am not confused now.thats a relief.:-)

Re Barkbusters - it's a franchise and you don't have to have ever owned a dog to be a member and start advising people.

Lindsay
x

I notice the comments about this ban and that ban.
Charlie just so you understand the situation here. Choke chains are not banned by the police neither are electric collars.
There was a case police brutality in a county here in 1998 one dog died. The police used boots sticks and hung the dogs on leads,they never used electric collars, its all over the UK net ( although not much lately) that they had old style electric collars and no police force in the UK has ever had any modern collars.
They do not use them, at least its not public information, because they had to rebuild a public image of their dog units, it is a county cheif constables decision if they use them or not but.
We have lots of animal extremists here and for publicity reasons cheif constables dont alow themselves to be drawn into controvesy, however there is growing controvesy from anti dog people because the police are having so much difficulty training the protection sections of their dogs that they are haveing to send them to europe at tax payers cost and the public have become aware of funding it all.
I know a couple of people personally who used electric collars for recall problems  and these days you see a growing number of them. They have started to become known this past 2 years or so and they are affecting other commercial interests, which is why I think there is such a fuss. One of the persons I know spent over £700 on private trainers from the organisations which have been holding the commercial monopoly on dog training - result after 7 months of imprisonment and the long term punishment of being on leads and long lines they gave them up, found a real proffesional trainer who charged £20 for one lesson to get a recall and the dog has ben offlead ever since.
Now I would say if people are fleecing £700 ( maybe $1300) out of someone and still no results and all the behaviour problems keeping a dog on the lead causes then thats not training.
Last year they tried to ban these collars the results of that was the goverment here brought in a law to clamp down on animal extremists and made no laws on collars because of the benefits shown so far and those benefits are great, I know that I saw a July newsleter from the retailer who my aquaintance got theres from and with the nesleter was a seprate paper signed by a Law Lord (parliament) and the stated sales fingueres here in UK last July of electric collars was 750,000 acualy sold by companies trading in UK around 70% of those sales have been since the year 2002/3, they do not include thos imported from USA and with the exchange rates at the levels they have been this past two years I would think thats very high.
Thats a superficial veiw of the general situation here.

Oh to add, the word fleecing here means persuading someone to part with money with a  suggestion they will get what they want for the money when in the end they get nothing for their money, quite common here will all the dog services,  its a disgrace and the dogs suffer.

My we're coming on leaps and bounds now aren't we ;)  Only a few short months ago your main communication was on how to rid a residential neighbourhood of a noisy dog and the delight that said animal was out of the picture within days was almost tangible.

Then, predictably, nothing for a while :rolleyes:

You pop up a couple of days ago with criticism of advice already given but an admission of having no solution.  The powers of Google are clearly limitless because within just 48 hours of mastering the cut & paste technique (a particular reference on there not going unnoticed ;) ) you have moved swiftly on to solving the canine problems of today by the use of electricity - anyone got a feeling of deja vu  .

This all has a somewhat familiar smell to it ;) 

Don't you tire of perpetuating the same message again and again only to eventually find yourself against the same argument - hard measures clearly require hard sell but hard luck, it's getting really boring.