I would use whatever was appropriate for them, just the same as I would do for myself.

However I have no reason to believe that my dog will develop pneumonia/heart failure or leptispirosis.

I can choose to treat "just in case" and accept the side effects or, alternatively, optimise my dog's immune system and health by ensuring that it is never compromised by rubbish food, vaccinations, chemicals etc; and so far, it appears to have worked. ;)

Let us not forget that vaccination is not 100% effective in 100% of dogs, or humans etc. 

Let us not forget that vaccination is not 100% effective in 100% of dogs, or humans etc.
I went to a seminar in 1996 where a Vet from one of the big vaccine manufacturers openly said that only 3 out of every 5 puppies vaccinated "took" the vaccine because of their Dam's immunity, so 2 out of 5 owners think that their puppy is protected when, in fact, it isn't!

That is why the first booster is essential, and imo it should possibly be given after 20 weeks when the vast majority of pups will have lost maternal immunity but long before they are 12 months old.

So you want them boosted at 12 months?  So that means that 2 out of 5 dogs are unprotected from 10 weeks to 12 months??  You're happy with that? :rolleyes:

If you re-read what I wrote you will see that I'm suggesting the exact opposite.

Yes, jas, you have made it obvious that you think homeopathy is a load of rubbish.   Others of us have an open mind.

Margot

I have over 40 years' experience of owning dogs.   Those whom we have lost are Simba, (lab) died aged 14;  Jet (lab) died age 15, Tramp (B/Terrier) died at 13, Gemma, lab at 17, Purdey lab, almost 15.   Each was with vaccinated between 9-13 weeks, received boosters at age 1+ and 2+, after which no further vaccinations.   Trips to vet have generally been for cuts/etc, and I have been happy to use a/bs if wound justified it.   

Margot

Similar to my experience, Margot, except that mine are boostered every year. The only one we lost early (cocker spaniel aged 6) was back in the late 50s when boostering was unusual, and he died of distemper.

Other than that there was Ben (11), Rosie (9 - anaesthetic allergy), Bella (13) and Polly (15) - OH's dogs included Sally (3 - electrocuted on railway line), Kayla (15) and Katie (14). All were regularly boostered.

So, JG, we find that both methods would appear to work equally well ;)

Margot

Yep! So there's no need for either side to try to alter what other people do! ;)

As I said - open minds ;) ;) :)

(Do we need some non-homeopathic chill-out dust here, do you think??  Not tested on animals )

Margot

If you have never had a dog with a life threatening disease you have either been very fortunate or you haven't had many dogs or you haven't owned dogs for long.

Nothing is 100% effective but vaccines have an extremenly high rate of success.

I have only had 6 dogs over 20 years so I guess I must just have been very fortunate.
;)

jas, I'm 56 years old, was a Veterinary Nurse, have been exhibiting and breeding dogs for over 20 years, run quarantine/boarding for 200 and have run a busy grooming parlour for 16 years.  I think that's a reasonable and broad amount of experience of human and canine life?????

So you MUST have had/seen dogs with serious life threatening illness. Have you treated it with homeopathy?

Do you accept unvaccinated dogs in your boarding kennel?

Unfortunately the only time any of my dogs' lives had been threatened (and lost!) was when my dog was under the treatment of our Veterinary Surgeon.  She was given Rimadyl for a bee sting (duh!) when I asked for an anti histamine, which killed her.  Apart from one caesarian, my dogs have needed no veterinary treatment.  I bought Amanda as a 3 year old, asked my Vet to clean her teeth, only to find that she had worn the enamel off her incisors and they couldn't be cleaned!!  She didn't see the Vet again until I took her to be pts a month before her 15th birthday.  I give them a good balanced diet and treat minor (that's all they have) problems myself, either with homoeopathy or old remedies, avoiding the latest drugs like the plague!

I would use drugs for me and my dogs as a last resort, when all else had failed.  For example, if I had an old arthritic bitch who was in pain and other things didn't give her relief, THEN I would give Rimadyl.  Until then, I wouldn't have the stuff within a mile of any of my dogs.

I'm fortunate that my GP always suggests homoeopathy if he thinks it's appropriate, and only drugs if he thinks they are more suitable.  I use glucosamine and (at GP's suggestion) homoeopathy for arthiritis, and apart from that, I'm as healthy as my dogs!!  We have little to deplete our immune systems and so our bodies cope with problems very well by themselves. :)

I wouldn't dream of telling others what to do with their dogs.  We all do what we think is the best for them, but I have come to MY conclusions with a lot of thought.

PS I was kennel manager, not the owner and so enforced the owner's instructions that dogs should be vaccinated.  It was also terms of her insurance at the time - I don't know if it may have changed now.  But the grooming parlour was mine, and it was after the seminar AND when I made note of all the reactions (and deaths) of my parlour dogs, that I stopped vaccinating my own.  I thought that my dogs were healthy before, but they have not been to the Vet since! 
Thinking about it, I have taken a 2 week old puppy to the Vet with an eye that wouldn't open properly.  The Vet gave me cream that made the pup scream!  When I took the litter to be eye tested, the pup was blind in that eye, due the Opthalmologist said, to the cream given being far to strong for an immature eye, which had burned the cornea!  The pup would have stood a better chance if I'd bathed it with saline solution!

Well I can only say that you have been very lucky indeed with your dogs. I've also been fortunate in mostly having long lived dogs but I have had dogs with heart failure secondary to DCM and others with repeated chest infections. I've also had one with severe arthritis who was kept comfortable with Rimadyl for 2 years after he would have to have been put down without it. (He did have Cosequin too. Chondroitin and Glucosamine are not homeopathy. There is some quite good and interesting evidence for them.)

Well I think that I've been lucky with my healthy long lived dogs and very unlucky when I've taken one to the Vet!!

I'm glad that you've had mostly long lived dogs :) but do feel that modern life, with chemicals in food, fabrics, cosmetics, infact everything that we touch these days, as well as drugs, (we never used to worm or flea treat animals constantly on a regular basis!!) does shoot the immune system.  I prefer to live a more basic, natural, perhaps old fashioned life, as it suits me and my dogs very well.;)

As long as our dogs live long, healthy lives, and we act according to our consciences, we can't ask for more.
:)

Not the same as *does not give those is selfish, is living off the backs of those who do vaccinate and who do take the small risk of adverse reaction,* as previously quoted by op :)

She also goes on to say somewhere that those who have had a severe reaction will be likely to have another.

Also all vaccines given must only be given to healthy animals. We hear often of vax given while dogs are being spayed, have allergies etc etc.

Christine, Spain.

"Unvaccinated pups at home" should still have immunity through the dam.

Of course, if we are feeding commercially-sponsored milk to pups, they won't then have immunity.

I would feel more comfortable about these "findings" if they weren't funded by the international drug companies.

Homeopathy does not have the multi-national drug companies, bent on finding the next money-spinning drug behind it.

I do not say that I would not use drugs on life-threatening conditions, what I say is that I prefer to start "gentle".

Personally, last year I had what turned out to be a type of Legionnaire's disease.   I was prescribed antibiotics over a period of 9 weeks, which left me with all sorts of side effects.    Treatments prescribed by a homeopathic doctor sorted out these side effects.   You may say that time alone would have sorted out the side effects - but I wished to resume a normal life sooner rather than later, and get back to work sooner.  And I didn't have a half-hour consultation, either!

Margot

Maternal immunity lasts for varying times in different pups even in the same litter. To say "Of course, if we are feeding commercially-sponsored milk to pups, they won't then have immunity." Pups that don't get colostrum will lack maternal immunity but supplementation / habd rearing does not compromise if if the pups have got the colostrum.

The Lancet paper was NOT funded by drug companies.

jas i'll ask again as i dont think you answered last time

who did fund the testing??

From the paper:

"Conflict of interest statement We declare that we have no conflict of interest."

"Acknowledgments ......... This study was funded by the Complementary Medicine Evaluation Program (Programm Evaluation der Komplementärmedizin [PEK]) of the Swiss Federal Office for Public Health. ....... Peter Jüni was supported by grants from the Swiss National Science Foundation (grants no. 3233-066377 and 3200-066378)."

"The funding sources had no role in the study design; collection, analysis, or interpretation of data; or the writing of the report. The corresponding author had full access to all the data in the study and had final responsibility for the decision to submit the paper for publication."

*as Jean Dodds has admitted*

I`ve met & spoken with her also corresponded with her & what you are saying is not what she adviced me at all!

With shedding from vaccines it still leaves the poser, what or who is perpetuating the spread of disease?????

Many many vets worldwide are still advocating boosters that are not needed, no scientific evidence for them either, zilch, nada, nowt .........

*IMO anyone who does not give those is selfish, is living off the backs of those who do vaccinate and who do take the small risk of adverse reaction, and is irresponsible both in the care of their own dogs and to the community of dog owners.*

Only thing I have to say to that, is I`ve found a lot of people who think that way are so narrow minded & obnoxious. And of course they`ve never come across an adverse reaction either so have the luxury of calling them a small risk......

Christine, Spain.

>*as Jean Dodds has admitted*
>I`ve met & spoken with her also corresponded with her & what you are saying is not what she adviced me at all!

It's what she says in the copy of that article you asked John to send me, Christine.

Refresh my memory please J/G, don`t have it to hand at the mo You can quote small parts

She says:
"Thus, the overall risk-benefit ratio of using certain vaccines or multiple antigen vaccines given simultaneously and repeatedly should be re-examined. It must be recognised, however, that the luxury of asking such questions today is presented only because the risk of disease has been effectively reduced by the widespread use of vaccination programs."

Thanks JG. I may be wrong but as I understand it Jean Dodds does NOT advocate not vaccinating at all. I've no problem with not giving multiple vaccines together and imo it may well be that the viral diseases don't require boosters after the first one. Its the don't vaccinate at all people that worry me.

"And of course they`ve never come across an adverse reaction either so have the luxury of calling them a small risk......"

No, I've never come across a significant vaccination adverse reaction and I don't know anyone who has. What IS the incidence of significant adverse reaction to the viral vaccines?

"Only thing I have to say to that, is I`ve found a lot of people who think that way are so narrow minded & obnoxious."

Is it broad minded to ignore the mountain of evidence that homeopathy does not work?" As for the obnoxious label, this sort of comment is why so many people will not argue with the 'holistic' brigade.

>What IS the incidence of significant adverse reaction to the viral vaccines?

Table 3 gives the Suspected Adverse Reactions reported in 2004

http://www.vmd.gov.uk/sarss/cissues/SARSS2004%20.pdf

Quarterly Summary Reports can be viewed too..

http://www.vmd.gov.uk/sarquartsummaries/default.aspx

Thanks - that confirms that the number of serious adverse readtios to canine vaccines is very low indeed - 105 reports in 2004.

There is a problem here jas because Vets will often not fill in the yellow form to report a 'suspected' reaction to a drug.  In the case of vaccination, it would be like killing the goose that lays the golden egg!;)
When my bitch died after being given Rimadyl, my Vet refused to complete the form even though my bitch had every adverse symptom listed in the packet insert.  I didn't know at the time that I could, in fact, complete a report myself.
So although I have no doubt that the figures quoted are reliable, from personal experience, I would suspect that they may not be accurate.  Obviously looking at the big picture the benefits of vaccination outweight the possible problems.  As with all drugs, there are possible side effects.

*From editorial from this week's Lancet........................Any comments from nosode/homeopathy users*  *Is it broad minded to ignore the mountain of evidence that homeopathy does not work?*

There is absolutely no scientific evidencefor boosters, thats also a zillion £££ industry, scientific evidence show that once you are immune you cannot be made more immune by boosters, I don`t understand why vets still do it but they do!  Thats your idea of broad mindedness, obviously.

My pup had severe adverse reaction, so did Vals, both our vets refused to report it although I reported it myself eventually, so did Merial the makers, as by law once they are notified of a reaction they must report it. Adverse reactions are known to be well under reported, making statistics unaccurate.

*As for the obnoxious label, this sort of comment is why so many people will not argue with the 'holistic' brigade.*

The difference is I prefer not to argue but will debate with open minded people who don`t go around stating that just because others don`t agree with the standard practices of which there is no scientific evidence get accused of being selfish etc & then get asked why they use h/pathy if theres no evidence for it! I got no time for you & others like you who try to belittle others belief in h/pathy!!

Try & find out what the disease Sterile Idiopathic Nodular Panniculitis does to a pup.

"There is absolutely no scientific evidencefor boosters, thats also a zillion £££ industry, scientific evidence show that once you are immune you cannot be made more immune by boosters, I don`t understand why vets still do it but they do!  Thats your idea of broad mindedness, obviously."

If you'd read what I've said, I am not arguing for annual boosters. I don't booster annually myself, and my vet doesn't advise it. I do think that those who do not vaccinate at all are able to avoid the small risk to their own dogs only because of those who do vaccinate - and as JG has shown Jean Dodds agrees with me.

"The difference is I prefer not to argue but will debate with open minded people who don`t go around stating that just because others don`t agree with the standard practices of which there is no scientific evidence get accused of being selfish etc

See above.

then get asked why they use h/pathy if theres no evidence for it! I got no time for you & others like you who try to belittle others belief in h/pathy!!"

Evidently. I find it fascinating that some people believe in something that has so repeatedly failed to produce one iota of evidence and 'got no time' for those who query their beliefs. No doubt Price Charles 'got no time' for those who doubt that coffee enemas cure cancer but that doesn't make his belief any more rational.

"Try & find out what the disease Sterile Idiopathic Nodular Panniculitis does to a pup. "

I've tried looking it up and can find no indication that it is caused by vaccination. 'Ideopathic' would suggest that it is of unknown etiology. You of course may have evidence that it is vaccine related in which case I'd be interested in seeing it. I HAVE watched a litter die of parvovirus and it was not pleasant

And you read what I`ve said, cos its not the first time I`ve said it, I have faith in h/pathy end of story nothing more to add.
J/G has shown nothing as far as I can see. I suggest you contact Dr Dodds & get her opinion from herself instead of relying on hearsay, or taking & twisting her words. Or better still go to one of her seminars, if you`re interested enough that is.
The fact remains, many many thousands of vets advise boostering animals, they believe it, animal owners believe it, all without scientific evidence, no difference in people believing in h/pathy without scientific evidence & to use your own words *failed to produce one iota of evidence* for boosters

*I HAVE watched a litter die of parvovirus and it was not pleasant* Thats the only thing I agree with, sadly I too watched my whole litter go down with it, after being vaxed by the way & according to manu`s vax regime. But the outcome was good for all but one of mine. With 24hr nursing from myself & vet they were saved.... eventually.

*You of course may have evidence that it is vaccine related in which case I'd be interested in seeing it*

Ask Dr dodds, she has the proof & unless you`re some kind of virologist, scientist or other doubt you`d understand it ;) She has my permission to disclose everything as do the other 3 vets who treated him.

I`ve been down this whole debate with you before & I find your lack of understanding & q`s as to why people believe in h/pathy tedious. It`s very evident, to me anyway, that you don`t want to understand & dislike people believing in it, seem to consider them fools for even doing so.

Get over it, for the last time, many many people have faith in it!

Christine, Spain.

Please PM me with you full name and an e-mail address for Jean Dodds. I'll be happy to get in contact with her and I will understand whatever she says.

I`ve been down this whole debate with you before & I find your lack of understanding & q`s as to why people believe in h/pathy tedious. It`s very evident, to me anyway, that you don`t want to understand & dislike people believing in it, seem to consider them fools for even doing so.

Get over it, for the last time, many many people have faith in it! "

No I haven't discussed homeopthy in general with you. I HAVE discussed homeopathic nosodes with you and invited you to provide one singe shred of evidence for their efficacy. You didn't. In fact you stopped posting at that point.

As for homeopathy, it is well and truly discredited, and it is not 'open minded' to ignore the evidence of that fact.

*Please PM me with you full name and an e-mail address for Jean Dodds*

I`m sure you can find her email yourself, its you who wants the proof, remember...... My second name`s Vaughan, that with the full story of my pups below, is all you`ll need.

[link]http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=48209;hlm=and;hl=adverse%20reaction%20in%20labrador%20puppies#48209[/link]

*As for homeopathy, it is well and truly discredited, and it is not 'open minded' to ignore the evidence of that fact.*

Boosters have been discredited, in fact vets & manus have lied about them being needed, millions still believe in them & have their animals done every year, so whats the difference............NONE.

People believe in boosters without scientific evidence, people have faith & believe in the evidence of witnessing h/pathy work, along with their h/pathic vets & drs. You don`t believe so why challenge those of us that do. It`s our choice & fortunately freedom of choice is still alive in this part of the world!

link doesn`t work, just put reaction to vaccine in labrador puppies & do a search on champdogs top right side

Christine, Spain.

Thank you. I'll find Jean Dodds e-mail somewhere.

"You don`t believe so why challenge those of us that do."

Why not? Its a weird belief that deserves challenging. Especially when you recommend it to others.

Your welcome, she`s very easy to find, specially for someone clever like yourself :)

*Its a weird belief that deserves challenging.*

No more weird than believing in boosters.

*Especially when you recommend it to others*

Correction, I`ve suggest it, along with using a h/pathic vet & also shared my experiences of it when posters have used conventional methods that have failed.

Christine, Spain.

"Your welcome, she`s very easy to find, specially for someone clever like yourself"

Thanks you again. I've found an address and have already written to her.

"No more weird than believing in boosters.

Considerably stranger. As you must have gathered by now I'm not arguing for annual boosters but at least they have an active ingredient. Have you come up with any evidence for the effectiveness homeopathic nosodes.

Look forward to hearing her reply to you.

You asked for comments on your original post, you`ve had them but in case you missed em, we who have faith in h/pathy aren`t concerned about the report you posted, would think its clear & obvious enough. We will still use it, at least I will.

I have come back with a very valid argument about people, vets & manus still advicing the use of boosters when there is no scientific data for them but you think thats not weird.

Just goes to show takes all kinds doesn`t it.

You've come back with zero arguments in favour of homeopathy. Yet you still believe in it, miasms and all.

Why let it bother you so much what we believe in jas.....
after all we live in an age of freedom to speak and to choose what we believe in, and so what if that isnt the same as your beliefs :-)
or would you rather we all lived in a dictatorship where we are all told what to think and believe?

Personally i shall carry on with my beliefs as i have seen results..... which is good enough for me :-)

P.s. thought this was a discussion and not an argument :D

>that confirms that the number of serious adverse readtios to canine vaccines is very low indeed - 105 reports in 2004

No Jas, I said they were the Suspected Adverse Reactions *reported*. That doesn't include any that aren't reported. 

Where did you get 105 from? According to table 3..

Inactivated vacc. 12
Live vacc 102
Mixed vacc 93
= 207.

My apologies - I missed one of the vaccine categories. I agree that reactions are almost certainly under reported. I've read of an incidence for lepto as high as 1.1%. But there is also a tendency for those who do not vaccinate to attribute everything to vaccines, no matter how long after the vaccination the illness occurs. Both of those make it very difficult to get real figures, but I'd submit that serious reactions are not experienced by the vast majority of users.

FYI one of my cavaliers died from an adverse reaction to his booster. I had a full PM done by a top forensic scientist who is one of the very top people & does lots of work for the Home office & police etc

However beacuse she is not a vet the vaccine company will not accept her findings-even though she has done work for the same company on animals(not research but investigations into apparent sideaffects of other products resulting in their death)-yes she has done PMs for them !!!!

She no longer does any work for the vaccine company & is taking her own action regarding the vaccin company

Since my dog died she has been doing independant Pro Bono work on dogs that have adverse reactions to vaccines & the cases are far more that the official records show

Nick Thompson refers to clinical trials here - http://www.holisticvet.co.uk/research_reference.htm
I haven't read them - I'm happy as I am. :)

He also mentions "A beautifully pragmatic trial by Chris Day. The fact that this trial was accepted by the Veterinary Record is a tribute in itself!"

Chris Day is the homoeopathic Vet who convinced me!!

Thanks Val. I can't find any of them on Medline but I will ask my vets if they have the appropriate Veterinary Record.