i have a cavalier king charles spaniel, he is not registered so he is just a pet and i was wanting to know should i bother having him neutered or is there no point. i don't have any other dogs and he is really calm and laid back. but are there any reasons as to why i should or should not?. what whould anyone else do?.

I wouldn't neuter him if he isn't causing any trouble. If you neuter him he is likely to get fat and lazy unless you work hard with his diet and exercise, and his coat may well change from the lovely long flat silky type to a horrible coarse fuzzy sort of affair. If there are no behavioural or health reasons, don't do it!

Do you have a young unneutered bitch?  Can you keep them completely seperated when she comes into season?  The answer may influence your decision.

Deffinately wouldn't worry about having him done - he's the only dog, already good natured so there is no reason to.  Just enjoy having a lovely good dog and pamper him :D

If you're happy with him as he is - why fix what ain't broke?.......

what i really want to know is if there are any health benefits to getting him done, if not then i will leave him as he is.

LucyD - QUOTE "If you neuter him he is likely to get fat and lazy unless you work hard with his diet and exercise, and his coat may well change from the lovely long flat silky type to a horrible coarse fuzzy sort of affair. If there are no behavioural or health reasons, don't do it"!

Hmm - I agree that if the dog is healthy and is their only companion, will not wander etc, why do it.

However I find your other remarks about the dog getting fat and lazy and the coat going coarse/fuzzy etc rather odd - granted some coat changes can occur in some breeds but not all.

The "fat and lazy" comment - a bit over the top.  How many dogs are you basing your opinion on?

Neeva

The coats very frequently change in cavaliers after castration & they often become lazy with the reduction testosterone levels with a resultant increase in weight. I know a good cross section of cavaliers & the portly ones tend to be the neutered ones in pet homes

We are writing of a cavalier here not other breeds

Thanks  for backing me up MM. Yes I was basing my comment purely on the fat lazy spayed / neutered Cavs I have frequently seen, poor little things as wide as they are long and almost unable to waddle along. Perhaps it's not as big a problem in other breeds, but with Cavs it does seem that the owners have to be really careful. And again as MM says, the coats in Cavs change a lot - again perhaps not the case in other breeds!

Both my girls have been speyed, and both have very trim figures, even the 13 year old - but people are often surprised at how little food they get.  When you have a neutered dog you really have to throw the food guidelines on the packets out of the window and have the courage to feed according to your dogs condition - and that may mean feeding as little as half what it says on the packet!

I have 3 spayed bitches of my own, known my neighbours 4 spayed dobermann bitches, other freinds bitches in my own breed including ones that I have looked after, Golden Retirever bitches, and all the ones at training class.

Without exception all the neutered dogs and bitches have had to have their food cut, income cases as much as half, but in most about 1/4 to 1/3 less than before.

The dobes have all had coat thinning on flanks.  The bitches in my own breed have little coat change, but I could tell right off which were spayed as the coats texture is not so good and the coat tended to not lie as well.

All the Spaniels I have ever met with woolly unmanageble coats have turned out to be neutered.

Most of the bitches I know have been spayed later in life, but of those spayed before a first season or under a year old are definately very immature compared to their entire counterparts.  Until I had contact with more than a few I assumed they just had that kind of personality but having met anything over a dozen such bitches in my group of freinds the 'silly' ones turned out all to have been spayed young.

All the spayed dobes have become incontinent by middle age, and one of 5 I know well became so very soon after spaying (she had bad phantoms so was spayed at two).  All of these were kept fit and not overweight.

PS - both my girls have spaniel blood - one full ESS and one  ESS x BC and both have woolly very hard to manage coats, the BC cross is by far the worst :(

On another thread the poster sasys they have found very little publushed material on the effects on coat, but from my speaking to all manner of dog owner especially groomers this effect is very well known and really doesn't need documenting as it is so evident.  I ahve never met a neutered Spaniel that didn't exhibit this coat change to a lesser or greater degree, none have had the corrrect smooth coat.

Does any one know how extreme/often the coat may change in Aussie males? If for instance we had him neutered at 2 - 2 and a half, after he had matured? Only ask as people are saying it can be different in different breeds :D

Have a word with your breeder Natalie1212.  I'm sure that they have received "Christmas Photos" of neutered pets!  As a groomer, my experience is that neutering affects the coats of both sexes and all breeds, some more than others, but I can always tell that a dog has been neutered even if the owner doesn't tell me!  And the average pet owner doesn't realise that the coat shouldn't be thick and fluffy anyway! ;)
As Brainless says, she notices the difference in her spayed bitches' coats, but it may not look any different to an untrained eye.

Our breeders are in Ireland at the moment, but I will ask when I speak to her next week. Just wondered if anyone could give me an insight until then.

I have looked on the net, but because of the breed most of the sites are American and they are so for neutering, you never see the other side of the coin - or the effects on this particular breed.

Thanks anyway :D

Don't panic Natalie1212!  You can chat next week. :)

Only know one spayed Aussie Nat and so far her coat hasn't changed too much. She is still shown(with permission from the KC) and does well. Although I do think she now tends to shed a little all the time rather than a very noticable coat drop after seasons.

Thanks Satincollie :D

I think I will just have to wait till our breeder is back from Ireland, I may not even have a choice as she may well place any pup's that are for pet's under a spay/neuter contract, obviously I would, if this is the case, try to get her to agree to letting us wait till he is at least mature before we have him neutered, but it all depends! We will see, not so long now till November - when we pick the pup up - so it won't be long before we know all of the answers!! :D

Agree with you all there - a lot of folk seem to think neutering will stop aggression, makes no difference at all. Ive seen that proven time and time again. 
Neeva

Yes there are health benefits in getting him castrated. Speak to your vet (or several to get a balanced view) on what they are and their relevant incidents. They will also be able to tell you about any known health disadvantages and their probability levels. The vets are your best 'bet' with regards to health. Depending on your bias, they may outweight any coat changes on the dog, especially if you are not going to show.

Weight gain is to do with food intake. You will always need to adjust food intake depending on growth stages, activity levels and neuter status (and ofcourse any medical problems like thyroid problems).

All the best,
Patty

IMHO vets don't always give a balanced view on castration, they only tend to see the benefits and the £'s, not the behaviour problems :(

I often find vets advice worrying. :(  With my Sheltie pup the vet called him a border collie (he looks nothing like one what so ever) and tried to worm him right after his jab. Which Oscar's breeder told me not to allow (because it can be deadly). Also I will never forget how with my mice they once gave something for a skin problem which stated on the label " warning for cattle and horses only - do not give to small domestic animals" in small print (which I noticed when my mice died!). There are many more stories which show vets often just think of money than these two.

My vet was trying to push the idea of having Oscar "done" when I was there for his first jab. He didn't ask if I wanted to have him castrated, he just said "when he's 5 months I will castrate him", you can make the apointment in advance if you like. 

I tell my puppy people that spaying/neutering won't train your dog for you.    Many pet people see it as a panacea for all ills, which it ain't!!   Also agree that many vets just see it as their bread and butter.

Neutering will not stop agression once it's ingrained, either.

Personally, I'm one who thinks it's an unnecessary operation for a dog with a sensible handler who is prepared to train the dog at least to a basic level of obedience.  If you have a dog with a temperament problem, it's just one little tool which may help alongside assistance from a qualified behaviourist.   I can't see that many cavaliers would come into this catagory!

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

I remember when my boy had a small fleshy lump on his leg and the vet was going to remove it, he said 'shall I castrate him while he's in anyway?' I said 'touch his bits and both me and his breeder will sue you!' (he was already doing pretty well in the ring!) and we heard no more about it. :-)

I was advised to get one of my collies done because he was highly strung and a bit neurotic to say the least. He also can be a bit fear aggressive. I had him done just before he was a year old, he is now three. It has made no difference to his personality or fear aggression, which with more experience and hindsight I can see never would have done as neither problems are related to hormones. My new one will not be castrated, despite nagging from Battersea, because he does not need doing. Even the initial scent marking has been stopped through training and (a bit) of maturity.

The only time I would advise castration now would be in the case of  a really inexperienced handler who was struggling to train through behavioural problems which were definitely linked to hormones and castration would make the difference between a pet dog they could cope with and continuing problems which could end in rehoming or worse.

I am going to disagree with some comments here.  I had 2 cavaliers girl was speyed, boy was nuetered it did not change thier coats in the least and they did not get obese either.
I had my German Shepherd nuetered to try and help his agression towards other dogs.  It worked and he was not agressive and used to play with both male and female after that. Other male dogs i have had nuetered have lost that sort of bossy i'm in charge thing with other male dogs.
Also I have only ever not had 1 male castrated, and 1 female nuetered I kept them entire and they both died earlier than necessary wiith problems that could have been avoided if they had been nuetered.
My jack Russell is going to be nuetered in Sept mainly because i have a female pup here and i don't want accidents, or later health problems for him.  She will be spayed after her first season I won't be taking any risks after my personal experiences.

With regards to the Cavaliers what age were they neutered/  I am most interested as I ahve never met a neutered Cavvalier whose coat did not change drastically, and wondered whether age it was done may make a difference?

I've also never known a Cavalier coat not become thick, woolly and curly after neutering.  And it's not due to my clipping the coat because I don't clip Cavaliers! :(  The entire, well bred Cavaliers with silky coats are such a pleasure and easy for their owners to groom.  I wonder if, because there are so many thick, woolly, curly Cavaliers about, owners think that the way the coats should be?

Their weight can certainly be controlled.  I usually advise owners to give their dogs only half the amount that they were feeding before, but some owners just can't resist giving more PLUS treats!! :(

That is why I asked what age the dogs were neutered as they may still ahve been in puppycoat, which probably is a bit fluffy?  Maybe they have never seen or felt the correct coat.

My girl was spayed at 15 months and my boy castrated at 13 months.  I will try and find a piccie for you to look at tommorow of them aged around 4 or 5 years.

Bev

My BC x ESS was speyed aged 11 years - it definatly wasn't puppy coat ;)

My first male cavalier was castrated when he was 3 years and it totally ruined his coat, it was a bushy mess and nearly impossible to keep nice. My female was speyed at 8years old due to illness and the change in her coat is unbelievable, she used to have a lovely coat, smooth and silky now it is a bushy mess that I have found that I have to keep trimmed quite short to manage it at all. I will certainly not be having my two male pups castrated as i want to keep their coats looking good and there is no real reason to have them done. When I took the youngest for a checkup this week the first thing the vet said to me was when was he going to be done, I told him never and he started his well rehersed speach about why I should and was shocked when I still said no. I have not had a problem keeping the weight down on my speyed female, I just give her lots of excercise and watch the amount that she eats.

Ah herin lies the problem many owners seem unable to keep the food intake down especially in small breeds where a pound or two excess weight is proportionately quite a large amount.

I have no problem keeping the weight correct in my spayed girls, but they sure do have an increased (or at least the same) appetite, so are always looking for food, which is a real pain as they weren't food manics before spaying.

Thankfully the coat changes are not too bad in my breed, they just seem to ned combing more as they don't shed cleanly always a section at a time, and also the coat tends not to lie so nicely and clumps up, so needing more grooming.  It isn't something you would notice by eye.

well after reading what everyone has said i have decided not to have him neutered. he has got a beautiful smooth coat with no problems and i want to keep it that way. thanks for helping me decide what to do.

Hello there,

Just be aware that he may have a lovely coat, but that testicular cancer is the second most frequently diagnosed cancer in older intact dogs, there are other types of cancers that can arise within the testicles, that 80% of unneutered male dogs develop prostate disease, that perianal tumours are stimulated by testosterone (perianal cancer is the 3rd most frequently diagnosed cancer in older intact dogs) just to mention a few diseases that intact dogs may develop.

Never mind all the behavioural benefits that castration bring (this has been proven) - although Cavaliers rarely have these behavioural problems, so this might not be an issue for you.

There has been no evidence at all to show that coats change due to neutering. For as many people saying that the coat has changed, you will get as many to say theirs hasn't.

Personally, I would rather give my dog the best chance for a long and healthy life, than a perfect coat. But the choice is down to the individual, ofcourse.

All the best,
Patty

After 16 years in the grooming parlour, trimming 6 dogs a day on an 8 week cycle (240 dogs on the books at any one time) I have never seen a dog with tesicular cancer - even retained ones, or prostate disease. :rolleyes:
I'm sure that you are quoting reliable statistics, but they obviously don't live in Berkshire!

Patty,

>Personally, I would rather give my dog the best chance for a long and healthy life, than a perfect coat. But the choice is down to the individual, ofcourse

That is a wholly inappropriate and inflammatory remark to make and if you have to resort to such repugnant tactics to persuade someone to listen to you then you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

The poster has read and discarded your advice - get over it!

Teri

I wish that I was as tactful as you Teri.:)  What I was thinking wasn't printable after reading such a nasty post! :rolleyes:

Hi Val,

As far as changes in coats go 100% of the neutered BSDs of both sexes that I've met and there have been a hang of a lot of them over the years have had horrendous coats - overly long in all the wrong places, fuzzy felt-like undercoats that defy the best grooming products unless done to the skin a couple of times a week AND they moult top and under coat to some degree all year round :(   There are several fmily members' dogs over the years of varying breeds and mongrels who've had similarly unweildy coats - as you and other professional groomers know and most of us with multi contact with lots of dogs, in the majority of cases it ruins coats.  Doesn't need a scientist and certainly not a behaviourist to prove that ;)

As far as preventing behavioural problems, of about 12 males (still 100% mark you ;) ) that I've known "up close and personal" to be castrated, every one of them has a behavioural problem and every one of them was done as a youngster on veterinary advice as a "preventative measure"    I've met countless more but couldn't testify to when they were castrated so won't bring them into the equasion.

Regards, Teri

Hrm.

I think im going to go get my bitches mammary glands removed, and of course all her bones, her brain, her lungs, her heart.....

All these things are affected by cancer or disease. Where do you draw the line, where do you stop lopping off bits as a preventative measure??

Given that cancer of some kind or another is one of the biggest killers of dogs, (with obesity and behavioural problems being two others), i dont really think it matters WHICH bit gets the cancer that kills the dog!

There is evidence to suggest (for humans as well as dogs) that breeding young and breeding frequently lowers the chances of breast cancer -- i dont see anyone recommending THAT though!

Em

In defence of Patty, there are definate health benefits to neutering. Having lost 2 beautiful samoyeds (kept entire for the show ring), to testicular cancer & mammary tumours respectively I can say it DOES happen. I now have 2 males, one of whom was neutered due to on-going pyoderma, which led to horrible abcesses. He hasn't had any trouble since he was neutered & has a much better quality of life. Because of all of this history I made the decision to have my latest pup neutered @ 6 months. Whilst I don't regret getting him neutered, I wish I had waited until he was a little older, as he is still very much a puppy in nature, now aged 3! Neither of my dogs is fat or lazy & niether have suffered cat changes. Whilst they may have an increased appetite, I am in control of what they eat, so keeping their weight down is not a problem.

I personally don't see the point in keeping a dog entire if you aren't going to breed from it.

Hi Teri,

I don't really mind what people choose to do. They just need to be given the whole picture from both sides of the story.

Yes, that is my personal comment (as I said 'Personally') and I am afraid I stick to it, as everyone is entitled to their opinion. What you will not see me do, is what you do Teri, throw flippant and personal comments at posters - I am above that.

All the best,
Patty

Patty,

>What you will not see me do, is what you do Teri, throw flippant and personal comments at posters - I am above that.

Your words so far tell quite a different tale Patty :rolleyes:  But I'm sure readers will be able to sort out what's what ;)
As for providing "the whole picture" you have so far failed abysmally to do so - by referencing only what money-grabbing as opposed to knowledgable and caring vets say ad nauseum.   Posters who query neutering are doing so generally because their vet has suggested it - rarely do the majority of vets (or funnily enough "behaviourists") point out *both sides of the story*  

The mainstream of regular contributors do provide a wider view and of course they have no financial incentive to sway people one way or another :)  

Where's your published proof about the frequency of testicular cancer? I've known many entire dogs and I've only ever known one to develop testicular cancer - and that wasn't malignant.

There is plenty of evidence about coat change if you're open-minded enough to listen to the experts.

I find this a fascinating topic.  Of the two 'pure' breeds I have owned (one pedigree GSD, one BC with no papers) both were intact males.  With the GSD it was never an issue (he just wasn't that sort of dog) but the BC was a nightmare if he got a sniff of a bitch on heat - but by the time we inherited him the vet said his behaviour was too established for castration to make a difference.  However all succeeding dogs/bitches have been rescue mutts which I have routinely had 'done' not wanting to add to the unwanted canine population by accident. None became lethargic or overweight and all lived into their mid to late teens - hard to judge exactly as all were adults when rehomed.

So I guess my question is:  are the factors for and against castration/spaying different for purebred dogs than mongrels?  

Can i give my side on this aggression issue :)

There was a guy who's border collie was very agressive and attacked nearly every male dog that passed his way. The owner got him neutered at 2 1/2 and within a month the dog was no longer aggressive.The owner did nothing other than get him neutered.

Hi Hailey,

There are of course dogs for whom castration can work - those of us who are currently pointing out the numerous adverse situations which can arise as a result of routine neutering do acknowledge that it most definitely has it's place in some circumstances for some dogs :)

Some owners have dogs castrated around the age group you mention for the reasons you mention by which time it could well be a learned behaviour - a bad habit if you like - and therefore neutering would not have any affect.

Feminisation syndrome is recognised by the veterinary profession - certainly those specialising in the reproductive system of the canine - and it ought to be made known that because in some cases a neutered male can attract the unwanted sexual attention of other males, it can in fact make the neutered through aggression dog worse as all of a sudden he has more "full on" interaction with other males.

So long as anyone taking the course of neutering their pet is aware of all the pros and all the cons and can therefore make a fully informed decision, debates such as this will have served a useful purpose.  Regards, Teri :)